Aaron

Again, I agree, there is no need to get emotionally involved when one is suffering physical pain, in fact it's better to have a clear head, but in the same way, if you do feel panic or anxiety, oftentimes that's indicative of the severity of the situation and that should be taken into account too. My point is that pain should be examined, rather than just treated and dismissed. One can learn a great deal from their own pain and suffering, if they are willing to examine it honestly. Aaron

I would love for you to point out where anyone said you must wait and suffer from the pain in order to learn a lesson. The message was that pain is meant to teach us that something is wrong, that if we accept it as such then our attitude about pain can be different, rather than always seeing it as a harmful thing, we can accept it as being beneficial, which it is. In regards to compassion, how can one be compassionate if they do not even know that someone is suffering? How can someone know someone is suffering if they haven't experienced it for themselves? Pretty hard to explain, don't you think? Aaron

I just wanted to make a statement that the creation of this thread wasn't meant as a personal attack on The Tao Bums, but rather a "look what's happening here, do we really want to set this precedent?" I think, overall, the mod team is wonderful and makes good decisions the vast majority of the time. I don't want people to use this thread as a "bash the mods" thread, since I don't think that's appropriate, nor is it beneficial to the community as a whole. I had disagreements with Ya Mu, but I try very hard to be objective when I'm commenting on his beliefs and ideas, even though I will sometimes be sarcastic. I don't sense that Ya Mu is a bad person, just that we disagree on things, in particular the notion of pain. I admit that I have things I could apologize for, especially if he thought I was trying to disparage medicinal qigong or traditional Chinese medicine, because I'm not trying to make blanket statements regarding either, but rather that there are certain practices within those fields that I don't believe have been shown to have practical benefits in regards to healing ailments. I'm positive there are cures that do have medicinal value, in fact the use of certain peppers to treat stomach ailments, at least the chemical found within the peppers, actually came from their use in "folk" medicine and TCM. There are aspects that do work, but then again there has never been evidence that rhino horn or tiger penis was a treatment for impotence (thank God for Viagra, huh?). So, I apologize now to anyone who I might've offended, that was not my intent, nor am I trying to say that one should not learn more about or practice TCM or medicinal qigong, if that's what you want to do, or find interesting, more power to you. I think we've had enough incidents where things like this have happened, perhaps not even to the degree that it has here, that we should learn from this and look at it as blessing, because it was only by this happening that we can grow from this and hopefully be aware enough in the future to prevent it from happening again. Aaron

Hell Ya Mu, Well I was under the impression you couldn't rename a thread, unless you were a moderator, if that's not true, my apologies. I do however believe you cannot delete someone else's posts unless you are a moderator, so I will assume that a moderator removed my posts, because they were disparaging of you and your practice, even though they did not violate the insult policy, nor were they trolling, rather direct responses to your own questions. My question is why this happened and why it has not happened for other people. Unless a post is in violation of the insult policy or terms of service, I don't think they should be touched just because someone disagreed with them or they hurt someone's feelings. You're not special, but someone apparently thinks you are. Don't let it go to your head though, I'm sure it's just a transient condition. Aaron

I'm not going to comment on what you've said to CT or Owledge, it's not my business, but I will comment in regards to your discussion with me. I have yet to have anyone, aside from you, say that I behaved in a childish manner in the "Pain" thread, yet they have made comments, repeatedly that you've "lost your cool", "freaked out", and the list goes on. You are not special! You deserve no better treatment than anyone else. Yet you've been able to do things other members haven't, like change the title to your thread, delete posts that you didn't like, and defame other people without having to worry about the consequences. You insinuated that I was a troll because I differed in opinion with you. I think this is clearly a sign of preferential treatment. I've seen how you've behaved in the past, lest we forget what's happened to other members that have disagreed with you, and I see it happening now as well. You are receiving special treatment from the mod team, that is in direct conflict with the treatment other members receive. Lastly, in my opinion you are not a master, at least you do not present yourself as one. I've met masters before, and they do not speak or behave the way you do. If you want respect from others, you'll need to do more than tell me you've healed someone of pimples from a thousand miles away (that was sarcasm), in order to get it from me. Aaron

Cleaned up what? The fact that he reacted in a juvenile way? How was he even able to change the title of the thread? Only a mod can do that. I didn't ask for my posts in response to his to be removed, but they were. I think it was an attempt to save him some face, since he seems to think of himself as a master and I don't know many masters that would behave like that. My question is, if he can have it done, can anyone go into a thread where they've behaved like a jack ass and just have all history of it removed? Aaron

So what happened here? Ya Mu's rants have been removed and the fact I called him out on his BS was removed as well. I guess if you represent a major advertiser, you can rewrite anything you want, or am I wrong in this regard? Aaron

I'm really sorry to hear you were bitten. I actually had a phobia of dogs for nearly 30+ years, stemming from a bite by a german Shepard when I was nine. I was grabbing it's food bowl to feed it and it bit me on the hand. I don't mind dogs so much anymore. I hope that you heal up alright. On another note, if you're not taking pain killers, you might want to consider some visualization exercises to help manage the pain, one that worked for me and I used it when I had my toothache, is to concentrate on a spot on the wall and while you're breathing in say, "I'm breathing in peace and relaxation" as you're breathing out, focusing on the spot, say, "I'm breathing out pain and anxiety." I know it sounds a little goofy, but it actually works. If you would rather, instead of a spot on the wall, you can imagine a ball of light in front of you, the important thing though, is to make sure that you're visualizing, seeing in your mind, the peace and relaxation entering your body, and the pain and anxiety leaving your body, for either the spot or ball of light. Once you've managed to reduce your pain, push out with your hands and imagine that you're pushing the ball of pain away as well. Again, sounds Kooky, I know, but it's worked for me for years, I hope it works for you. This isn't medical advice of course, it's just a description of how I manage pain and shouldn't be practiced in lieu of your recommended care. Always consult a doctor before trying anything that deviates from your treatment plan. Aaron

Hello Mithshrike, Again the similarities... I have two half-sisters from my father's first marriage, both are much older than I, in fact both are nearly old enough to be my parents. My father abandoned them before I was born and I didn't learn about them until after he had died. I have made no attempt to contact them, simply because I know that if I did, it would bring up a painful past. Now I'm not telling you not to contact your father or half-siblings, I just don't want to see you get hurt because you have expectations about what is going to happen. I would suggest that you go into this with as few expectations as possible. Don't expect to be accepted or that they'll be happy to see you, or that everything will turn out alright and you'll finally have the loving parent you deserve, because the likelihood that these things are going to happen is slim. Well, I can't really say that, because I don't know your father or half-siblings, but what I can say is that your father had plenty of opportunities to be your father, but didn't, so don't go into this expecting him to start now. You have my sympathy, as someone who's experienced something similar, it's a bitch and it's not fair (or at least doesn't seem so), but what can we do about it? I really do hope that you have the best possible outcome here, I just hate to see you get your hopes up and then get hurt again. Aaron

I would recommend that you ask yourself what you want out of this. Keep in mind that what you want and what your father wants may be two different things, your lives are very different, all because of what happened many years ago, and nothing you do can change that. He left you and even if he makes amends it wont erase what's happened, so please keep in mind that what's important now is what's best for you. On a personal note, my father drifted in and out of my life throughout my childhood, and my mother finally left us when I was sixteen and I didn't hear from her for two years after that, then just one phone call. I finally got to see her about six months after that phone call, you see my father went up to save her but by then it was too late, she had become an alcoholic and had married a man that was abusive towards her. It was painful to see what had happened, even though she had left I still loved her at that time. I don't anymore. These days I don't talk to my mother and my father passed on when I was 21. I have moved on as best as I can. I'm not a child anymore, so my duty, to myself and those that I love that are near me, is to remember that my past does not define me, but rather those things I do in the hear and now do. If you do decide to contact your father, please keep in mind that he might not be the man you remember or the man you want him to be. Things change and so have you, so be ready for that and make sure and have someone close by to talk to if things don't go the way you would've liked. You're in my thoughts and I hope everything turns out for the best, whatever that might be. Aaron

Ya Mu, You're passive aggressive method may have worked on 5ET, but it wont on me. I am not going to flip out and insult you to the point I get banned. I am instead going to say, "tsk", "tsk", and walk away. This argument isn't worth the energy it's taking to keep it going. In closing, I disagree with you, so I must be, evil, ignorant, stupid, robotic, and the list goes on. And I would recommend you read the thread again to see who was insulting who. I made statements regarding my opinion, you disagreed in a vehement way. Have a nice life. Aaron

Great Video. I criticize Isha for his lavish lifestyle, but at some point the guy learned what needed to be learned. I thought his explanation about "holy wars" was great. Thanks for the post. You really like that "rallying for peace, is War" quote, don't you. Anyways nice to see you're still around. I might not agree with everything you say, but it's good to have a different opinion now and then, to prevent things from stagnating. Aaron

Just because you are so unwilling to research medical qigong is no reason to trash those that are educated about it. First, changing the name of topic is childish, very much so. Editing the OP was even more so. You need to try and not get so emotionally involved in your discussions, it will prevent you from learning when the opportunity arises. Also keep in mind you repeatedly tried to goad me into arguing with you by insulting me and making ludicrous claims... ala the robot claim, implying I am heartless without emotion, repeating the same thing over and over, which isn't true in the least. What happened was you got upset, overreacted because you felt threatened and thew a little hissy fit at the end in order to set your foot down and show your dominance. Grow up and get over yourself, you're not that important. Aaron edit- And if I'm so biased and anti-medicinal qigong, then find a thread on medicanal qigong, or giqong in general where I have insulted or diminished the practice (or for that matter commented), other than this thread, where you essentially forced my hand on the issue.

Hello Dwai, It's neither better nor worse, it just is what it is. My point is that we need to be aware of the big picture. Just as we should always keep an eye out for people who will take a scientific advancement and use it as a tool of war, we should also be aware of those people who will take religion and use it as such, both are equally reprehensible, and as you've stated, and I agree, both science and religion need to be held responsible. If a scientist is researching bacteria in order to create a biological weapon, then they need to be held responsible, just as the cleric or monk who chooses to create a religious dogma to support war needs to be held responsible. My point, though, is that we do need to be aware of it, or it will continue to happen. Aaron

Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time? It's just as easy to ignore those posts that you don't like, or are you more concerned with making sure people only talk about what's approved to talk about? It would be different if I, or anyone else here was responding to every post, but I've only been responding to those people responding to my discussion. Aaron edit- I get tired of people resorting to the use of the word "troll" whenever someone shows up with a different opinion. If you look back at the discussion, I made a comment regarding pain, Ya Mu came back and essentially said I had no idea what I was talking about, then I came back and explained my opinion and it declined from there, but I have left a concession that I am willing to believe if proof is shown. Of course because I am not kowtowing and going along with the group mind, I must be a troll. It's ridiculous and really a clear sign of intolerance. If this follows the natural progression, then someone will try to provoke someone to anger (ala 5elemental style) or keep berating them until the mods ban them because they get upset (VMarco style) or I can just say this isn't worth it and let you have your little qigong medicinal healing circle jerk without any interference from someone who might want to talk about another aspect or concept of pain.

I agree Enishi. I've spent over two decades now examining the Tao Teh Ching and meditating daily. It amazes me how people will come to this forum with just a surface understanding of the topic and fail to see the deeper meaning, one realized, not just through intellectual contemplation, but also practice. I am always advocating that people use their own experiences as a means of determining what is real and not real, rather than just accepting something as truth because the majority believe it to be. I spent a great deal of time intellectualizing much of this, but it took experiential realization to truly understand it. There are many things I've learned, that if you told me they were true, I would've probably never believed you. Sometimes it takes more than just words to prove a point, which is why words are mostly useless. The sage teaches through his actions. It would be nice if that could be done somehow on an internet forum, but sadly it does require communicating to express one's self. Perhaps the key is in the way we communicate? Aaron

I didn't read the book but I did watch the three part documentary, which discussed the general principles regarding the development of cultures and such. I will not deny that most wars are based on greed and xenophobia, but I would ask to what degree the xenophobia is fostered by religious differences? I'm not saying religions are the cause of war, at least not in most cases, but rather they are used in collusion to justify it. Aaron

In regards to scientists being held responsible, I would say only if the person who invented the tool declared it righteous and above reproach by mere mortals, then used there influence because of said invention to harm someone, which the monks historically do (you apparently didn't read about the monks actually joining the military force in order to fight in the conflicts and wars, if you doubt this, just do a little bit of research on the Ch'an Buddhists during the Korean War, the Zen Buddhist during the early part of the 20th century and WWII, the Thailand Theravada.... err... well pretty much all of them, to be honest, especially if it was against those pesky white devils... I guess I'll stop there). As far as Hiroshima and Nagasaki goes, the person who decided to drop the bomb should've been held accountable for attacking a non-military target. In my opinion it wasn't justified. Aaron

I believe people should be open to experiences that might be outside their comfort zone and that we should never accept absolutes, because that denies us the chance to experience change if it occurs at a later time, however I also believe that there needs to sufficient evidence before one should make a decision and that even if something sounds logical, it doesn't necessary mean it's true, science has proven this again and again, by the way. Ya Mu did nothing wrong, per se, he is only acting as his conscience tells him to. He might have been emotionally invested in the discussion, but why not? He has been practicing Qigong and TCM for several decades and I'm sure anyone would be upset if someone stated that what they believe and have dedicated their life to is false. I'm not offended by this in the least, nor am I in need of compassion in this regard. Believe me, I am not some lost lamb that has failed to find the flock, rather I have decided the flock isn't for me just yet. If at some point in the future, through meditation and practice I find things to be different, then so be it, but I am absolutely not saying people should not practice TCM, but rather they should do it responsibly. Don't believe something just because it sounds logical or it's deemed to be true, trust your own experiences and allow the truth to arise on its own. A quick point, no one can make you feel emotionally anything you don't choose to feel. Every decision you make is your responsibility, so if I did suffer as a result of Ya Mu's comments, that's on me, not him. Aaron

You realize you've just said, don't hold the institution at fault, only the individuals who actually perpetrated the acts. You can use religion and dharma as examples of your argument, but that seems to be the argument. My point isn't that the religions should be cast aside and wiped out, but rather that these institutions often cause harm because they inevitably become tools of the government and rulers. If one is truly going to have a religion that doesn't harm anyone, then the only way to do that is practice tolerance for others and completely exclude religion from government. It astounds me how so many religious leaders gave up their convictions for the preservation of their institutions. It shows to me a lack of faith in those same institutions. If a religion is "true" then it seems like it would continue to exist regardless of what happens, so the practitioner would not need to cow-tow to the ruler's pressure, rather stand on faith alone, if in fact the belief system was inspired by something greater than man. Even without this, admittedly biased opinion, we still need to be aware of the capacity of the institution to do harm, so that we can try to prevent this from happening, not only in the here and now in Thailand and Sri Lanka, but also in the future. Aaron

Until I see evidence otherwise, I hold to C. I think it's possible for someone to manipulate another person's qi, but I think they're one in a million practitioners. Aaron

I grasp the quote... any action that opposes someone else is an act of war... simple quote, but that's not what the topic is about, but rather the complicity of religion in warfare. I can see how this quote might have a very general connection, but not more than that. Aaron

So religious institutions shouldn't be held responsible if they're complicit in the war? So the Zen monastery's have no responsibility for their actions during WWII, advocating the killing of Chinese because they were considered "less than human"? This is an interesting defense for religion, because it generally says the religion is blameless, only the individual can be blamed, which gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want in regards to government and warfare. Aaron

I don't think you understand what we're talking about here. You're in left field and we're in right field, and I think you're playing an entirely different game at that. First there is no justification for rape or killing of innocents under any circumstances. Nothing you can say could justify that. I would assume that in your nihilistic juvenile understanding of the world that you have failed to grasp this concept yet, but perhaps with age you will. Aaron

So what does that have to do with price of beans in Jamaica, or this conversation for that matter? I'm not discussing rallying for peace, but the complicity of religion in warfare. If you had read the OP you might've gotten that message. Aaron