Aaron

I give you Sweden as an example. According to the last estimates between 46 and 85% do not believe in God and less than 2% actually attend regular church services (5% of the Muslims attend regular services). They have a very peaceful culture, one of the highest quality of life indexes and are also well known for their peaceful way of life. They remained neutral in both World War I and II as well, in fact they haven't been at war in nearly 200 years. They have a very low crime rate as well. I don't see them marching off to war anytime soon, so I guess they'd be an excellent example. Aaron

I know there is subtle energy flowing in my body, I feel it when I meditate and I've used it to deal with pain in the past, so that's not in question, it's the level of ability that I question and the capacity for someone to manipulate that energy in another person. I'm not an entire skeptic mind you, I just don't see any evidence, personal or otherwise, to say that someone has the ability to alter the chi in someone else or from a distance. I don't think it's possible, except for the greatest of practitioners, as in one in a million have this ability. There are far too many people claiming they have supernatural abilities, but not many that can actually show them to be true, that's my issue. Were there men who could heal others by laying a hand on them, possibly, but I will hold to my skepticism til I see it for myself, which I haven't yet. Aaron

Read Tao and Zen. It talks about this difference in view between Zen and Mahayana Buddhism. Aaron

As an aside, I'd hardly consider that an article from an unbiased source, Tom Rogers is the president and CEO of the Qigong Institute, the people that run the website it appears on. In regards to your back pain, I'm not a doctor or Medical Qigong practicioner, so I wont give you medical or energy advice, but what I will say is that from my understanding they've linked lower back pain to stress and anxiety for a long time now. Making that connection was quite brilliant in my opinion, many people fail to realize it. Good luck with your future treatments, I hope everything works out for you. Aaron

I'm only stating what I know to be true, not what is necessarily true. The truth to me is found in the facts and I have yet to see any facts regarding the use of Chi in the healing of others. As I said before, if you believe this to be true, fine, all the more power to you. I would rather not accept something on faith, but rather see concrete examples of it's usefulness and benefit (which have been documented in Tai Chi and Qigong, but not in TCM). If that makes me a hatemonger, so be it, but I'm not making these comments based on hate, but rather just stating the facts. If I've failed at all today, it's by resorting to arguing when it's not necessary. Being right or wrong isn't important, but rather living as you should live. If you're doing that to the best of your ability then you have nothing to worry about. Aaron

Hello Chris D, Give me some time to find the sources, but I have no problem explaining this rational. I should point out I was putting it into a context that compared the relationship of suffering to the Taoist ideal and the Buddhist ideal, but there are some references to suffering the Tao Teh Ching, at least indirectly. Aaron

Most academics respect Wu (who was a nationally renowned translator and international lawyer, as well as a native Chinese) as having one of the most accurate translations of the Wang Bi version of the Tao Teh Ching. I have never heard of the translation you posted and it seriously deviates from all the respected translations I've read, so I have to assume it's not accurate. Oh and I have read it after 10 years and 20 years and my understanding has changed... it took some life experience to understand it as I have today. If you want to separate pain from suffering, that's fine, but you're essentially saying that someone can experience pain, but not suffer from it. In that sense is cutting your finger or having your arm chopped off painful then? If one does not suffer from it, can it actually be painful? If you're proposing that the Buddhist mystics are capable of eliminating pain via detachment, I'd have to see proof. Other than that, thanks for the responses and again, I'm not trying to insult TCM practitioners. You're free to practice as you see fit and if you feel through your experience that it's a valid method of healing, then by all means follow your heart, but I haven't seen any evidence to support my doing so in this regard. Aaron

I understand this has been a recent topic, but it was discussing a singular form of anarchy, Taoist anarchy and what I wanted to discuss was the more generalized idea of anarchy. If you don't understand what anarchy is, the most basic definition is allowing others to live as they see fit, so long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's life. I wont go much more in depth with it than that, but I would like people to explain why they answered yes or no, or even maybe. I think this is a healthy topic, because even if we cannot have a worldwide anarchic existence, we can cultivate our own individual anarchic existence. So what do you think? Aaron

Yes I think you could have a successful clinic open for 35 years and still be founded on smoke and mirrors, simply because of the placebo effect and also people will normally get well on their own if given enough time. I don't believe that someone can heal someone else by waving their hands above them and manipulating their chi. I can understand how acupuncture works, so I have no problem with that, but I think chi manipulation as a form of healing is no more valid than a preacher laying hands on someone that's sick and curing them. Trust me, I know a lot of people who believe in qigong traditional chinese medicine, and they spend thousands of dollars to learn it, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence supported by the Western world that says qigong energy healing works, hence the reason I say it's smoke and mirrors. it plays on the wishes of the patient and they either heal themselves through a placebo effect or they get better naturally, but we say it's due to the mystical powers of the great qigong healer! Show me actual evidence in a western medical review, one that has been repeated, and I will be the first to go to a qigong healer when I find out I'm sick, rather than a normal doctor for treatment. Although I think the medical doctor is cheaper, so maybe not. Funny too, since one had to go to school for ten years to get their degree and the other just had to take a mail order course or weekend workshop. Aaron

Your friend was lying. We all have bad experiences. Are you telling me he never had another child take his toy away from him because they wanted to play with it? Are you saying he's never had a loved one die? Are you saying he's never failed at a task that he put a lot of effort into? Has he led a privileged life, apparently so, but I would say that it's the combination of good parenting and learning from his mistakes that have made him the person he is today. The nice thing about pain and suffering is that the effects are drastically minimized if you have a kind and loving support network that helps you through it (and you can still get all the benefits from the experience of loss or suffering.) Again my point is not that we need to be (or should be) masochists, but rather that pain is essential in order for us to understand what is beneficial and harmful, in fact that's the full purpose of pain, to show us what is harmful so we don't end up doing the same stupid things over and over. Now there are people who suffer and never learn from their suffering and there are also people who suffer with no apparent cause for that suffering, but the essential truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people use pain as a learning tool, whether they care to admit it or not. Now the problem is that we're kind of out of whack with our definition of pain. I'm saying we learn from those things that cause us to feel discomfort and pain. If we never experienced pain it would be almost impossible for us to die of natural causes. This goes for physical and psychological pain. We'd end up getting murdered or having a horrible accident. Do you think the Buddhist monk who is showing compassion to others is doing it simply because of an enlightened state or is it because they empathize with the other person's suffering? Didn't suffering help them to empathize? That's my point, it's experiencing something that allows us to relate to others on a human level. Anyways, this is getting way out of hand, so I'm going to stop here unless someone comes up with an actual argument to disprove my translation of Chapter 13... i.e. give me the "correct" translation. Aaron

Dwai, There is no offence intended here, but let me clarify, there is no way in hell any of us are ever going to be free of pain, unless we're dead and that sort of makes the point moot, doesn't it? Pain is inevitable and essential. People who can't feel pain end up having numerous accidents because of the condition. Pain is essential, it lets us know something is wrong. You can believe you can transcend pain, but as a friend of mine pointed it, give that person who claims that he doesn't feel pain or suffering anymore the hammer, because he's really the one who needs to bop himself upside the head, so he can get a reality check. The degree of suffering isn't important, rather it's the act of suffering that allows us to grow as individuals. Nothing anyone's said disproves my point, it just directs the argument in another direction. Does the enlightened person no longer have nerves? From what I've heard there are a lot of Buddhist monks that go to the dentist when they have toothaches, Taoists too. Can they manage pain better than others, perhaps, but they are not without pain and suffering. People seem to take this to the extreme, as in I'm advocating masochism, rather than looking at the practical argument being made. The irony is that most Buddhist masters will tell you that the one has suffered much finds it easier to reach enlightenment. It's understanding suffering that allows us to transcend it and develop compassion for others, you can't understand it without experiencing it and realizing it's nature. Aaron

Ahh... so you come back with the ever effervescent reply that all the "greats" give you, that only by studying it for decades can one ever understand the power of "insert mystical mumbo jumbo here". I'm not going to continue to discuss something that I have no intention of studying for any extent of time in order to learn the 'truth'. If you've read this post prior to this edit, ignore it. If you want to believe in TCM, that's fine, all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure. Aaron

See my response above Scotty... You've made some good points. My argument though, is that we need to be aware of what's going on in order to be able to make any valid and real changes in the future. Lets just look at the complicity of the Christian religion in regards to the war in Iraq. I can't remember many churches opposing the war, even though there was very little real evidence to support it. So, what I am getting at isn't placing blame so much, but rather that we learn from our mistakes and stop blindly following religious leaders under the pretense that every decision they make is ordained by god, buddha, or enlightened thinking. Aaron

I don't think I was advocating that you solve the problem in one post, rather that you avoid solving the problem by absolving blame. I'm interested in seeing how often religion is used as a motivator for war and how often the religious leaders follow the public sentiment in order to avoid displeasing the government or the masses. I think I provided enough examples of the Buddhists doing this, I could provide more if that would help. I don't think we really need examples, I think most people can see this quite clearly. All in all, there is no religious institution that I know of that isn't without blame in this regard, so my original intent with this thread was to point out how religions back war and oftentimes distort their doctrines in order to support those acts. Aaron

Heh... you must not read many of my posts. I'm perhaps the least religious person on this board, in the sense that I do not follow dogma, but rather examine texts intensely to see the practicality of what's being taught. Believing that Tao Teh Ching made a good and valid point, whether it was Lao Tzu or someone who attributed the writing to him, doesn't mean that I have fallen into a religious dichotomy. Hmm... come to think of it, perhaps you have read my post and you're trying to push buttons. Now that wouldn't be very nice, but it wouldn't be the first time now would it? I'm actually fairly well versed in the principles of traditional chinese medicine, so my beliefs have little to do with a bias, but rather an examination of what you're saying from a practical understanding. I believe that acupuncture is a valid medicinal option for instance, but I don't think eating ground tiger penis is going to make me more virile, so lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do. Of course if you want to continue with your passive aggressive attempts to pull me into a argument, you can, but I would suggest a subtler attempt. Aaron

I understand physical pain. I've had numerous serious injuries, including cutting my toe off and having it sewn back on. The problem is that you're not understanding what Lao Tzu said. We do NEED to suffer, without it we do not grow as people, simple as that. You cannot have sympathy for someone if you have not experienced suffering, how could you? You would not understand what's happening to that person. You've never experienced hunger or pain, yet you see someone hungry, how do you understand what they're experiencing if you haven't experienced it yourself? You idea is twisted in my opinion and smacks of holly roller, hallelujah miracle working. What you're talking about isn't reality, it's smoke and mirrors. In reality it is the world's preoccupation with avoiding pain that is causing much of the woes in the world these days. With that said, there's no need to suffer without purpose. You don't walk through a thorny bush for no reason, but in the same way, if you do suffer you should take the time to understand why you're suffering, rather than immediately find a quick fix for it. Aaron

Hmm... Well I must have heard wrong. Anyways, it's the same iron that's been around for billions of years. I cite the discovery channel show about cosmic collisions as my source. Aaron

Too cool... It's funny, I've actually been discussing most of this with a friend of mine. An interesting thing I learned is that the iron in our bodies is the same iron that was around when the big bang occurred, so we're literally billions of years old in a sense. Aaron

That just absolves religion of blame, it doesn't really solve the problem or even address it. If one is okay with a religion being the foundation of a culture and society, then they should also be okay with placing blame on that religion if its done something wrong. Aaron

Most Buddhist abhor violence, yet they also understand that violence is a part of this world. Buddha actually was against violence and encouraged rulers to live in peace with one another. The problem is that there is also a complicity in most Buddhist countries, where the religion can come under attack from the government if it defies their national objective. Historically speaking most Buddhist Temples will either stay out of it or if they are forced, tactfully accept it. Just look at the Dalai Lama's sanctioning of the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. The Dalai Lama was under intense political pressure to support the act, even though there is nothing to support it in the teachings of Buddha. Violence, after all, begets more violence. This isn't my personal opinion in regards to the assassination, I wasn't opposed to it, I'm just using it at as an example. Aaron

I don't think you've read the entire original post. The major gist of it was that ALL RELIGIONS have propagated war, so what do we do about it? Aaron

You're missing the point, and perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it as well as I should've. Here is chapter 13 again... "Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise. Prize calamities as your own body." Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise"? Because a lowly state is a boon: Getting it is a pleasant surprise, And so is losing it! That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise." Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"? Because our body is the very source of our calamities. If we have no body, what calamities can we have? Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world. Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu We welcome disgrace because it is an opportunity to grow. We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive. Only someone who understands the principles of suffering, the nature of suffering, is worthy of being entrusted the care of others, because that person has sympathy for others. This sympathy, when born out of compassion, not for the sake of morality, but rather the desire to ease the suffering of others, is the reason why they are worthy of being the steward of the world. This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering. The nature of suffering is not an abstract quality and it is not different from pain, that's just semantics. Suffering is the result of pain, which by definition is an unpleasant experience, the two cannot exist without each other. Suffering does not exist without pain, just as joy does not exist without pleasure. Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact. Ask anyone who has suffered from depression. What many people fail to understand is the necessity of pain in one's growth. If a child never experiences suffering, then they will never grow to be a compassionate person. It is experiencing pain, then relating that experience to someone else's suffering that allows them to cultivate compassion for others. This is why it's so important to allow children to grieve and to fail in life, because failure is a welcome state, because it gives us an opportunity to learn, then it also gives us the opportunity to rise above that state, which can be a joyous occasion. When one claims that they can end their suffering, then you might consider the argument regarding the hammer, but I wouldn't go that far, rather I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering? Suffering is transient, it ends when we die, but until that day we will experience suffering and joy. Yes joy and suffering are linked and the same thing, but it is understanding the nature of joy and suffering that allows us to ease our own suffering, but again, we will never be entirely free from it so long as we reside on this Earth as human beings. Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical. It's the same with psychology, we've become a society that fails to appreciate suffering. Perhaps it's the reason so few of us actually learn from it anymore, we're too focused on the quick fix. Aaron

First differentiating between suffering and pain is somewhat difficult, because pain does cause one to suffer and one cannot suffer unless one first experiences emotional or physical pain. Some things that come to mind when you talk about pain: Pain is the touchstone of change. Man is oftentimes a stubborn creature, refusing to change unless something unpleasant directs them to want to change, in this example pain is beneficial, because it causes one to try to better their lives. The highest spiritual practitioners have all been influenced by suffering to some degree. Diminishing one's desires reduces the causes of suffering. If one diminishes one's desires and focuses on their needs, rather than their wants, then they are far less apt to experience suffering. This is true for most philosophies. It's one of the reasons why greed is looked down upon, because it invariably leads to suffering, whether it is the greedy person suffering because they cannot get enough, or they cause others to suffer because they take what they have. Sympathy for others leads to a greater awareness of one's purpose. In nearly every philosophy and religion, sympathy, whether you call it compassion or love, is of paramount importance when one is developing a spiritual nature. This is the reason why you find very few racists, bigots, thieves, and murderers amongst the saints of the world's religions. Understanding the nature of suffering precludes these things, because in understanding suffering, you understand the direct link you have to all things. This is why the sage puts others before himself and the Buddha taught the need for compassion for all things. This isn't just an Eastern idea either, in fact Judaism and Christianity are founded upon these principles as well. It seems that the one underlying truth that we all seem to be aware of is the need to help our fellow man in order to help ourselves. ----- Anyways, this is an interesting topic, but one that can be misunderstood, especially with people trying to avoid pain. Pain is necessary, as others have stated, because it allows us to appreciate our lives. I think the Tao Teh Ching explains this quite well in chapter 13 which state: "Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise. Prize calamities as your own body." Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise"? Because a lowly state is a boon: Getting it is a pleasant surprise, And so is losing it! That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise." Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"? Because our body is the very source of our calamities. If we have no body, what calamities can we have? Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world. Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu Aaron

In many years of meditation I have found one thing to be true, that regardless of what I learn and experience I always return to this world. The Zen Buddhists have a phrase that many disparage and belittle, but it talks about what you're experiencing and was meant to explain this process of existence that we can't deny, "before enlightenment we chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment we chop wood and carry water." Many people will lead you to believe that once you've achieved a degree of awareness that you will transcend this world, but the fact of the matter is that no matter what you experience, so long as your consciousness continues to reside on this Earth, don't believe for a second that you have transcended the menial tasks that take up your day. You will still eat, drink, work, and sleep. You will still have desires and wants, the only difference is that if you continue to practice you may see through the facade of the world as you see it and view it as it really is. All is one and one is all. Simple as that. Now will you stop thinking of the one and concentrate on the all? Or do you understand that everything the one is can be found in the all and everything in the all can be found in the one? Remember the three jewels at this time and that will help you. Be compassionate, be aware of what you really need, so that you can differentiate between needs and wants, and finally stop competing with others, rather live so that you can meet your needs and then in meeting your needs, meet other's needs as well. This is a wise thing for everyone to remember, but sometimes we need a kick in the pants in order to get back on the right track, that's compassion too. Aaron

If you're overweight, then how can you have a good diet? A good diet means you're eating as much food as you need. Even if you're eating healthy foods, if you're eating too much, that can cause you to gain weight, so perhaps what you need to do is eat less. Before making any changes to your diet, I should add that you should talk to your doctor. Anyways if you want to be able to continue to eat as much as you do now, then you will certainly have to do some form of aerobic exercise if you expect to lose weight. Tai Chi, Qi-Gong, and most energy style martial art practices aren't going to cut it, because the emphasis is on slow movements, rather than movements that cause you to burn calories. I used to do walking meditation, which might help you with your practice and your exercise. Just something to think about. In the end you should choose something you enjoy doing, if you can, so that you'll be more likely to stick with it in the long run. Aaron