Aaron

Hello Thuscomeone, If what you say is true, then even Nirvana isn't permanent. Also an end to suffering doesn't necessarily mean the eradication of self, but rather the eradication of the ego, which is the construct that we create that houses this idea of self, so in eradicating the ego, we are not rid of self, because self is everything that exists within reality and no-reality. You and I are self, just different ego constructs viewing self. I regret that I don't know many mantras, sutras, or umpanamawhats, so all I can share is my own experience and what I've learned from studying Zen. I do appreciate your own view, it is most certainly well thought out. I would like to hear about your own experience of "emptiness" if you have the time, if for no other reason than to compare notes. Aaron edit- Did I also fail to mention that we are Nirvana and not-Nirvana?

Hello Thus, My point is that even if you have experienced it, that doesn't mean that one can prove it exists unless they themselves have experienced it. Recently I have had issues with this myself and I'd like to quote from a post I made on another forum, it's lengthy, but I think it may apply to this conversation and also help to express my point in a more clearly. The thread was originally titled "What if I finally get it?" What I've learned since I posted this is that this was very much my own personal experience, and no matter how much I believe it to be an actual real experience, the only one that this experience is real for is me, so I need to remember that and when I talk about it, share it as that, an experience that can't be proven, and thus not a fact for anyone but me. Anyways, I think you have shared a lot of great stuff and I'm not trying to discourage you from doing that, rather I'm just making a suggestion. Aaron

I would like to point out that this is all conjecture (and in fact most of Buddhism and most -isms is) and there is no actual evidence to base any of this on. The notion that this can only be achieved through personal experience makes me suspicious of the veracity of the statement. In that light I would suggest you say something to the effect that "Buddhists believe that through practice one can experience whatever you're proposing" rather than present it as fact. When you present it as an opinion, rather than fact, there is less room for debate and people tend to be more open to your arguments. Aaron

Hello Mewtwo, I'll give it a wack, but remember I haven't analyzed dreams in ages, so I may be rusty. First since you became another character/person, and presumably a character/person much younger than yourself, I would say that could mean that you have a desire to change who you are, perhaps become someone more powerful and younger (or perhaps healthier). Second, since you were asking another person for help, it could mean that you are facing a problem and seeking guidance. In regards to the door being made of branches, in particular roots, I would say that you may feel that the problem you're facing is deeply rooted in your subconscious. Lastly, since you had to struggle to open the door, and once you did you believed that you had opened your sushumna nadi chakra, that most likely what you wish is to find balance and peace of mind (and of course spiritual progression). The dream doesn't necessarily mean you have opened this chakra, rather that you desire to open it. Note that this is my spiritual interpretation and does not necessarily mean anything. As others have said, dream analysis isn't necessarily accurate since images have different meanings culturally and personally, so take all of this with a grain of salt. Aaron edit- I missed your last post about the frustration and joy, but this really only adds to my view that you are seeking guidance, or at least someone who will pay attention to what you're saying, and that you have a sincere desire to open the sushumna chakra.

This is great advice. One thing you learn early on when you work with addicts is that you can't help everyone and there are so many people that need help, that sometimes you have to let some people go so that you can help those who want the help. Also it's very hard to help others if you're not helping yourself. If you are sick, emotionally or physically it is important to meet those needs as well. Yes helping others can help you emotionally (which can benefit you physically) but you really should be in a position to help others first. As for "Knowing how to have the best and most positive impact on society?", that's perhaps the hardest thing for most people to understand. Aaron

Hello Jetsun, I disagree with some of what you said. Yes, you should have a sincere motivation towards helping others, but I don't think that helping others is ever wasted, because someone does benefit, even if it's not you. There's also the idea that you practice so that it can become a natural action. Just like you practice meditation so that you can become more adept, so to you should practice compassion, even if the desire to practice may not be there, because the more you practice the more natural it will become. Many believe that compassion at its highest form is not driven by empathy or emotional attachment, but rather an innate understanding of the cause of suffering and a sincere motive to ease it. Other than that little bit, I agree, it's important to understand why you are doing anything. Aaron

Hello Folks, I've wondered why the three jewels never appeared in the earliest manuscripts of the Tao Teh Ching as well and came to the conclusion that perhaps Buddhism influenced the later manuscripts in some way. Even then, I do think that, as Dawei mentioned, these ideas of compassion, humility, and self control are almost universal ideals set down by religions (and societies). The reason is that a person who is compassionate, humble, and minds his own business will benefit society much more than the selfish, proud, arrogant person who's only out to serve himself. I think when one examines the ideas of compassion, humility, and self-control that it's important to understand that one will never be able to be all of these things all the time, but rather it is an ideal one should try to aspire to. I also think that at some point, if one has advanced spiritually enough, that these will be the natural culmination of spiritual practice. I think one reason the spirituality was emphasized was so that one would not misuse their knowledge of the martial arts and qigong. After all seeking power for the sake of power is perhaps the most corrupting act one can undertake. Aaron edit- Also keep in mind that compassion does not necessarily require empathy, but rather an awareness of another's suffering and a sincere desire to ease that suffering.

Hello Nihro, You might want to check out the website Terebess Asia Online, it's a great source of Taoist texts, including over forty translations of the Tao Teh Ching. As far as Alan Watts goes, I would recommend "The Watercourse Way" for Taoism and "The Way of Zen" for Zen. Another book by Watts that I recommend everyone read is "The Book- On the Taboo of Knowing Who You Are", which is based on Vedanta Hinduism, but really helps you to understand much of what's talked about in Taoism and Buddhism more clearly. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask. We also have a Tao Teh Ching subforum you might want to visit, especially if you have questions about a specific passage in the Tao Teh Ching. I'd like to say something profound now to encourage you, but the best thing I can think of is, ask lots of questions and if you don't think you understand, then you probably understand more than you might think. Aaron

A part of personal awakening (imo) comes from being compassionate to those who suffer (right action I think it's called, but I might be mistaken). To me this just sounds like an excuse to ignore anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. (Also, I'm not a hypocrite, I do, and have done, a great deal of charity work with homeless and addicts and nothing in the world grounds you like witnessing those who suffer and helping to ease that suffering. You definitely get a clearer view of what suffering really is, rather than the hypothetical bantering that you hear in certain places. Of course the person you help really needs to want help or in most cases your time is wasted.) Aaron edit- I also want to add that if you don't want to help someone, then don't, just don't make excuses for not wanting to.

I would recommend reading several translations of the Tao Teh Ching, my personal favorite was John Wu's translation, but there are many good ones. I also like Alan Watts a great deal and any book he's written will be a good source of information. I find most Buddhist books to be very pessimistic as well, but I really do appreciate Zen a great deal, perhaps you might want to check out some books on that as well, since they are both closely related (Tao and Zen that is). Aaron

Hello Simple, I like what you quoted here, but I think it goes deeper than that. Each moment is only a moment, nothing else. We may call what's happening autumn or spring or summer, but that is only because we decide that's what it is. The problem is that people become attached to cycles and see things as coming and going, life and death, black and white, not realizing that the log and ash are the same thing, not separate at all, nor is autumn and spring separate, they are the same thing as well. The problem is that we are judging them by their current state and not their infinite state. I mentioned this elsewhere, my belief that all things are connected and actually one thing. Good and Bad are just different spectrums of the same thing, the same as love and hate or even the caterpillar and the butterfly. It is only our observation of these things that cause them to be different. I think the key to understanding the nature of suffering, isn't to understand the disconnected nature of things, but rather to understand the connected nature of things, that our suffering is only perceptual. Even pain and pleasure are perceptions of the same thing, physical sensation. We decide that one thing is painful and the other is not. Now that doesn't mean that we will suddenly stop feeling pain simply by realizing this, but rather that we can understand the nature of these things and in understanding that nature understand what suffering really is. Or maybe that's all just crap and nothing means a damn thing and all we are is simply tiny specks floating on a ball of mud within the infinite space of the universe. No one can prove anything without doubt, so the best we can do is say, "this is what I believe" and let it go. Aaron

In the ancient days they used mnemonic devices, like poetry, in order to remember stories and such. I think the problem with many people these days is that we don't believe anything is worth remembering. Others believe that general knowledge is good enough, that you don't need to know the exact words. The only thing I committed to memory that I still remember is a verse from the bible I learned when I was nine years old because my sister had to learn it for Sunday school and I was helping her, it was John 3:3-6, 'Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, unless a man is born again, he can not enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus asked, "How can a man be born again, must he enter his mother's womb a second time?" Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, unless a man is born of the flesh and water, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. For flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit."' After thinking about it, I think that Jesus guy might have been onto something, at least in regards to the flesh and spirit. Anyways, my point is that you really shouldn't feel you need to memorize something, rather memorize those things that have some kind of importance to you. At one time I memorized "my father moved through dooms of love" by e.e. cummings. It's still one of my favorite poems. Aaron

Hello people, The following is a FAQ I've written regarding the Tao Teh Ching subforum. This is an open thread, so you can feel free to ask questions or make comments. Nothing is written in stone here, things can and will change, but for the meantime I think it's important that the general purpose of this subforum be followed, that general purpose is outlined in the following FAQ. Tao Teh Ching Subforum FAQ Why do you feel a need for a Tao Teh Ching subforum? The Tao Teh Ching subforum is intended to provide people a resource where they can examine the Tao Teh Ching indepth, exploring the philisophical, historical, and literary meaning of this text. Although this can be done in the Taoist Discussion forum, it can't be done as easily and often times the discussions can be lost in the shuffle. This forum allows for easy access to specific chapters and an easy way to reference discussions on a specific chapter without having to start new topics. Who can post new threads in the Tao Teh Ching subforum? Anyone can post topics to the Tao Teh Ching subforum. Are there any rules regarding what can be posted in the Tao Teh Ching subforum? Posts should pertain directly to the Tao Teh Ching, I-Ching, Chuang Tzu, or other Taoist or Chinese Texts that relate to Taoism. Discussions of general philosophy should be posted in the Taoist Discussions section of the Tao Bums. An example of an on topic post would be a discussion about the Three Jewels as they are presented in the Tao Teh Ching. An example of an off topic discussion would be a discussion of the Three Jewels as they apply to charity work. Also if you are posting a chapter for the Chapter Study of the Tao Teh Ching, that post should follow certain guidelines, including starting off with a translation of that chapter by John C. H. Wu, English and Feng, and Richard Henricks. If you have your own translation or comments, please add it after the first post. Please do not post chapters out of turn. If you have a particular question about a chapter, then you are more than welcome to post your question, but as far as the Chapter Study goes, please do not start a new chapter study until we have reached that chapter. If you start a Chapter Study thread out of turn, then it will be moved to another section of the forum. What should I do if I have translated a chapter of the Tao Te Ching and want to post it on the forum? If you want to share your translation, you should post those translations within one of the TTC Study chapter headings. If there isn't currently a chapter heading, then you can either start one for that chapter with your own translation included, or if you're not sure how to do that, ask a moderator to start one for you. The reason for this is to make it easier for people to find topics that they are looking for. Keep in mind that once we have reached that chapter in the Chapter Study, your thread will most likely be merged with it. I see you also have topics for the Chuang Tzu and I-Ching, why is that? Because there is a need for a place to discuss those texts as well and they have influenced the perception of the Tao Teh Ching. With that in mind it seems only natural that a place should be set aside for a discussion about their meaning. What should I do if I post a comment in a language other than English? Unless you're asking for an accurate translation, then you should provide a translation for the passage or comment. If you are posting more than just a few lines, then I would suggest posting your comment in the Chinese Language Subforum. Will these rules change in the future? Everything changes, so the rules will most likely change as well. If there is a need for the Tao Teh Ching subforum to evolve in another way, it will. No one is of the mind to rule with an iron fist, but rather the purpose is to ensure that people have a place where they can discuss the topics at hand without distractions. I know this is a short FAQ and you might have other questions. If you do, please feel free to ask them here and I'll be happy to answer them. Aaron Edit- This FAQ was edited to further clarify what is allowed within the Tao Teh Ching subforum.

I have made an addition to the FAQ, in particular this addresses comments in other languages. To clarify, if you are going to make a comment in a language other than English in the Tao Teh Ching Subforum, you should provide a translation for the comment, unless you are asking for a translation. If you are posting a lot of text, then you should probably post your comment in the Chinese Language Subforum. Aaron

Hello Dawei, The translations can be found at the http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao.html website under the Tao Teh Ching section. Aaron

Hello Thus, For me the difference between mindfulness and awareness, is that mindfulness is the process of paying attention, but awareness is the process of being aware, which are two different things. You can pay attention and not be aware, in fact most people tend to be mindful, but lack awareness. I think that many people confuse the two because they are linked at times, for instance if you are mindful you have a greater chance of being aware of what's going actually going on, the interconnected nature of actions, rather than just what's happening. In regards to good and bad, what I am saying is that good and bad are relative, compassion, in most cases isn't. Feeding the hungry is compassionate, but if you feed a mass murderer it would be considered bad. I'm not sure if that's a good example, but I think you get the drift. For me I take a look at the result of the action, rather than the moral attachments to those actions. When you can do this, then you can truly be a beneficial part of society, because your actions are no longer based on an artificial system of mores, but rather the present state of the world around you. Aaron

Hello Thus, I think you misunderstood, what I'm saying is that so long as you have expectations then you are creating the state you're talking about. When you cease having expectations you no longer have to worry about this and can begin to lose attachments and accept things for what they are. In regards to "with the mind", I'll poke you with a needle and you tell me if it's all in your mind. In a sense the mind is the receptor, but the action is very real, that's why I say it's more than just being mindful, but also being aware of what's happening. Also there is no such things as good, virtuous, and proper action, it's all something religions and society made up to keep people doing what they wanted. That's the first illusion you have to see through to find true acceptance and peace in your life. Aaron

Hello Thus, I was taught a long time ago that one's expectations are the greatest source of their misery. Give up your expectations and you can be rid of much of your pain, but being rid of expectations does not rid one of all pain, rather one must also understand their own actions and how those actions cause them to suffer. When you can do this then you can begin to live a life of acceptance. Aaron

Hello Jack, I think therein lies the biggest deception of all, the idea that we do have to cultivate, when we don't. We can choose to, but there is no requirement in this lifetime. I think when one takes cultivation too seriously then they begin to see it as the end all meets all, rather than what it actually is, meaningless. When you realize it is meaningless, then it begins to become a tool, rather than a projection of one's desires. The idea that there is meaning to anything really is just a construct of the mind. NOTHING needs to be done, except eat, sleep, and crap. Aaron

In certain sects of Zen they determine one's level of enlightenment by their ability to answer certain koans. The problem these days is that there are books with the answers already in them. I think more and more each day I believe that enlightenment is pointless, rather it is our ability to live each day understanding what we're doing that's important. The fact is, the only difference between those who are "enlightened" and those that aren't is that the former are aware of what they are actually doing. When one understands the nature of their actions, without applying morality or ideology to those actions, but rather they can see those actions exactly for what they really are, then they are enlightened, but in the same way they are the first people to tell you that they aren't enlightened at all. Aaron

Hello NAC, Let me clarify what I was trying to say. When a country is governed by religion the nation goes to <bleep>. Religious oligarchies (and theocracies) historically have always been oppressive, because it is a nation that is founded for true believers. If you're not a true believer, then it's not your nation. So when I say that China and Nepal and Tibet and Thailand and Vietnam and... well the list goes on, weren't any worse, then it's simply because they had fewer freedoms because of the religious ideology that governed their nations beliefs. There is no need to concede anything, because it doesn't change anything. Taoism isn't any better than any other religion, because it still proscribes a course of action that not everyone might agree with. Enforced fairness and equality is still oppression. If you want real fairness and equality then the trick is to let people live the way they choose, don't enforce your own ideals and religious views on others, don't assume that you know better or someone else knows better and rather just mind your own business and let others do the same. In a perfect country there would be no government at all, rather people could be whom they wanted to be. You would not have to live according to laws unless you chose to live according to those laws. So no one could tell you who you should have sex with or what was natural and good and what wasn't, you could decide for yourself. No one would have to take a pledge of allegiance or agree that the emperor, king, or whoever was in charge was divinely ordained, rather they could go about doing their own business. My point is that religion and government don't go together. If I would agree to anything it is simply that the world would've probably been better off if Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, and numerous other "enlightened" souls never graced the planet with their insights, or their followers at least had the decency to let others choose whether or not they wanted to be saved. Aaron

Hello Nac, The same argument can be said for Christianity and Islam. Europe and the Middle East both went through Golden Ages that eventually were wiped out by religious fundamentalism. Now with that said, in Buddhist countries you were as likely to have your hand chopped off for stealing as you were in any other country, so lets not fool ourselves their either. Religion's purpose is to ensure that people have a defined goal that distracts them from those things that remind us of our base nature and cause us to act out in soceity. It's called redirection of attention. Now the only way this really works is if people have faith, since very little of what religions have to offer can actually be proven to exist, even in debate, so if someone comes along and starts to claim that they can disprove it using another method, then of course people are going to try and stop that from happening any way they can. Religion is the dark shadow of our existence, it just masquerades as the light. It's only when you can cast away religion that real spirituality can flourish and science and the arts can be practiced as they were intended. Aaron

Hello Angela, I don't necessarily believe that talking about what you're going to do sucks the effectiveness out, rather it ruins the surprise. In the old days they said, "don't talk about it, just do it" because if you told someone you were going to do something and failed, then you lost face, but if you didn't, no loss of face. Of course it doesn't work for all things, but the trick was to hide your intentions as much as possible. I feel that this whole idea that somehow doing is more important than believing is true, but only in the sense that it brings about the physical reality that can't be achieved solely by believing. As far as failure goes, it's all in your definition of the action. This isn't new thinking by the way, Lao Tzu said all this two thousand years ago. If you don't compete, then there is no way to lose. It's as simple as that. If you don't try then you wont fail. If you simply do, then you are not succeeding or failing, you are simply doing. This is why they said hold nothing precious and nothing can be stolen from you. Aaron

the baby cries out and we listen and wonder what does she want now?

Hello Apech, In a way spirituality is superstitious. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hiduism, etc. all are superstitious, yet under the surface there is something deeper. People here me say, "life is about survival" and they immediately get this "Lord of the Flies", "Apocalypse Now" type of idea in their head, when that's not exactly what I'm talking about. Survival is more than just simply trying to live as long as you can. The mother lion who confront the hyenas to defend her cub is an example of survival on a deeper level. The fact is we are supposed to have a deep and fulfilling life, but the key is not found in enlightenment, salvation, or an altered state of consciousness, it's found in understanding that in this moment you are doing what you are intended to do, so long as you do what is beneficial for you and your loved ones. It's that simple. This idea that life has to have some deep purpose or cause is just a way for us to behave in a decent way with one another. Moralism, spirituality, etc. are all tools for social conformity and by no means are they bad things, in fact I advocate the practice of Zen, but I also understand what it is at its root and that it is not necessary or required. One can go their entire life without hearing the word "Zen" yet in one instance understand exactly what it is. Dogma, conformity, and society have nothing to do with survival. They have no purpose within the realm of nature, because they are constructs that only exist within our head. Breathe deep and listen to what the world is saying and I think more often than not you will understand the purpose and in understanding you will stop having to ask the question. Aaron