Aaron

I like Henrick's translation. It makes more sense to me. I never felt that the Tao Teh Ching pointed towards immortality in the sense that seems to pervade much of Chinese folk lore, but rather that he was a very practical man. In that sense, "to die but not be forgotten" not only makes a great deal of sense to me, but actually answers that question. Aaron

Myths are the embodiment of our subconscious and conscious, hence the reason so many mythologies have similar archetypes. When you are talking about things like Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, I'm not sure it's fair to characterize them as myths in the same sense as the Greek Gods or pantheons and such, because they served a different purpose. Myths are meant to help us rationalize those things we cannot understand, to come to terms with a world that at times makes very little sense to us. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu (or at least the commentaries attributed to them) didn't do this per se, in fact they did the exact opposite. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu said that there are no answers, that the greatest mysteries could never be explained. If anything these two texts seem to encourage us to give up myths, in the sense that myths will never explain anything of real substance, and instead focus on those things we do have power over. We can do things to ease suffering, other than pray. We can behave in a way that is beneficial to ourselves and others, we don't need an ultimate force to be able to do this. Now to say Myth's don't exist in Taoism as a religion, isn't true of course, but what I'm trying to point out is that the basic texts that we attribute (as westerners) to Taoism, the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, aren't per se, mythological in context, in fact science is proving a bit more each day, that what the Tao Te Ching was talking about 2,000 years ago, wasn't just on the mark, but incredibly accurate. With that said I think the question that may be better off being asked are Facts and misconceptions regarding Taoism. Aaron

Hello Cowtao, I agree, but my point is that there's no need to tell anyone to give up their dependency on words, rather we just need to live our own lives. My argument was that because truth is subjective, even an absolute truth may never be agreed upon, so perhaps the best thing to do is just allow people to believe what they want to believe and worry more about what we believe (experience) ourselves. Aaron

Hello Aridus, I think the problem is comes from knowing the truth in the first place. In the end truth is subjective, so no matter how much we believe we know what it is, the fact of the matter is that the only thing we can ever really "know" is what we've experienced. My point is that even knowing this doesn't matter, if someone believes that they know the truth, then there really is no need to try to change their opinion. In the end what eats us up inside isn't knowing, but doubting. Aaron

Hello manitou, I agree it just is. However when good and evil arise, the Tao is not lost, it's really just ignored. The Tao always is. You are right, the trick is not to judge. I do believe that people are loving by nature, honestly i do. One need only see a mother with their newborn child to know this. I remember watching a lecture, I think it was Joseph Campbell, and he said that the Polynesians used to raise their children communally. Every man and woman in a village was a child's caregiver. They loved each child equally, regardless of who the parent was. When the Europeans happened upon the Polynesians they called them naive, but I think in retrospect they were much wiser than we were. Aaron

Hello Otis, I understand what you're saying and I'm very happy it works for you. I guess what I am wondering is why is it important then? Why do we need to encourage people to give up everything they've known, to question everything they've learned? For me the simple answer is because we believe that not knowing the answer is the answer. That having no answer is the answer. To me saying this means there is an answer, even if that answer is, "there is no answer." What I propose is that we should not endeavor to change people through our words, but rather through our actions. If we are truly "aware", "enlightened", or even "somewhat in the know", then our responsibility is not to change the world, but to be a part of the world. We don't need to discourage people from believing in religious systems or philosophical systems to do this, nor do we need to reinvent the wheel, rather we need to use our own limited experience to help others. I used to give money to homeless people until my sponsor (in AA) told me to stop. He explained that they'll probably just use that money to get drunk. I thought this sounded reasonable and for years I stopped helping the homeless, then one day I realized that you don't need to give someone money to help them. I can help a homeless person, or any person for that matter, by simply listening to them, recognizing them as a person, showing them that they aren't simply another face lost in the mass of humanity. When I see someone that looks hungry I buy them food. When I see someone thirsty I buy them a bottle of water. I don't do this because an ultimate truth has convinced me to do this, but rather because there is a place deep inside me that feels a need to do this. Am I my brother's keeper? No I am not, but I am still his brother and if I love him, without reservation or limitations, then there is nothing that should stop me from reaching out to help him in his time of need. Now I'm not saying all of this to try to give you the illusion that I'm a righteous person without flaws, anyone that knows me for any period of time understands I have flaws (edit- and I'm far from righteous). I'm not even saying this because I believe that religious organizations help the world more than they harm them, but rather that I understand that each individual has their own needs and my belief is that it doesn't matter in the end what they believe as long as they find peace and happiness in that belief. That's why when someone comes up to me and evangelizes, I don't turn them away, but rather I sit and listen. Even if I don't believe anything they have to say, knowing they believe is enough for me to respect that belief. In the end there is no need for enlightenment, there's no need to save someone from their delusions, rather the need is to live our own lives to the best of our ability, understanding that if we do not know, then how can we honestly tell them that they don't know either? Aaron

Hello Manitou, I understand your point, I would just rather not call it truth. I prefer to call it awareness or wisdom. The knowledge of the actual nature of reality. Aaron edit- Also the more I examine it, the more I understand that the true nature of mankind is not solely good. Greed and avarice, those dark qualities we suppress are just as much a part of it, and in fact needed for survival (at least they were at one time). I think relegating human nature to this puritanical ball of light does more harm than good, because it tells people that when they act contrary to this way, that it's not natural. For me the man who shoots the pedophile who's molested his child is acting in a very natural way, just like the man who steals bread from the store to feed his child is acting in a natural way. Defining actions as good and bad is part of the problem, but with that said, living without some form of moral guideline would not be possible. We are not capable of existing as a society without some kind of morality to ensure that we exist as harmoniously as possible. Aaron

Hello Otis, I guess my point is that it's okay to learn about different philosophies and religions, that there really is no truth, not within us or without, rather there is just what is. With that said, if someone decides there is a truth they have every right to investigate that and hopefully they will find their answer. I've seen in the past few months several threads about giving up old ideas about religions and philosophies and developing your own philosophy, that really aren't about that at all, rather they're about giving up old philosophies in light of this new anti-philosophy, which is actually just another school of thought in itself. In the end what they're talking about is truth, that they have it and these other schools don't. My point, the point I think is important here, is that we each need to decide for ourselves what is acceptable to us. Enlightenment is optional. To the best of my knowledge there is no immortality, there's no proof that immortals exist, we will all die, and I have no way of proving that we will return from an afterlife, so instead what I offer people is my opinion, and I wish these "gurus" did the same, rather than offering this stuff up as the end all meets all fact of reality. The last thing we need to do is start over from scratch, thinking that starting over is going to change the basic nature of humanity. What we need to do is understand our original nature and ego nature, so that we can find the place where the two meet. Part of that has to do with investigating what we've learned (not dismissing) and part of it has to do with investigating what's within us, but excluding either will actually hinder our understanding of the nature of reality. I think most of the people that advocate dismissing what we've learned in regards to religions and philosophies, are those people who have been burnt by them somehow. I think most human beings, wise or not, are more than willing to live and let live, it's just those rare few who decide they know what's best that screws it up for the rest of us. Aaron

Hello folks, I haven't practiced martial arts much, but I can tell you that the bout that amazed me was on the first video, the second to the last. If you watch the man in green, his balance is nothing short of phenomenal. He barely struggles, keeps his footing without stress and his movements are so fluid, if you can't compare that to water, I'm not sure what you can. For me that's the magic. Also keep in mind this is a push hands competition, so there wont be any kicks or punches, really it's more like wrestling, so comparing it to you and your friends wrestling may be accurate, but I'm positive if any of us got in that circle, we wouldn't have remained standing past the first few seconds. Anyways, thanks for sharing the video, I've actually developed a good deal of respect for Tai Chi after watching this. Aaron

Hello Steve, My comments weren't directed at Ulises, but also to the website link. After reading a good deal of the information found on the website, it seemed to me, that much like many other pseudo-religious organizations, that their intent, wasn't to encourage people to give up "stories", but rather to understand that their story was the right story. Now that's fine and good, but to me it seems paradoxical to say, "give up stories" and then offer another story, one that really is a story as a solution. I think it's groups like these that prey on those people who have been disenfranchised by modern religions and ideologies in an attempt to gather up their own followers. Again, if that's your thing, fine, but I think they're a bit dishonest in their approach and their ultimate goals. Aaron edit- The more I look at the site, the more it makes me uneasy. My first thought is, don't trust someone who isn't willing to identify themselves or claim their own beliefs, something the person at Organelle seems to be doing.

My recurring dream when I was a child was of a nuclear bomb exploding in the distance and destroying everything around me in a flash. It was so bad I suffered from insomnia when I was 13. Of course that was the early eighties, things are much worse now. Anyways, I don't think climate change will do in mankind, but rather mankind will be its own worst enemy. That doesn't mean we'll be wiped out, but I do believe, much like the plagues in the middle ages, that a large number, at least half of the population will die due to germs or guns. Anyways, it wont happen for at least a few more decades, if it does. In the meantime all we can do is what we can do. I hope life is treating you well. Aaron

Hello Blasto, I was actually going to remove this post and rewrite it because I thought I was being a bit presumptuous and accusatory, so I apologize. The editing time has changed on the site so I wasn't able to. I apologize for what I said. In the future I will allow you to bash whoever you choose. I really don't have the time or inclination to defend those that can defend themselves. I would suggest that you take a look at your own interactions with others, something I've done myself, and decide for yourself what you should do. Just so you know, I was forced to attend church as a child and ended up in a Christian Cult in my late teens. I broke away from the cult shortly after my eighteenth birthday and I think it had a lot to do with my eventual abandonment of the religion and search for something else. I understand better than most what goes on within the veil of Christianity, it's weakness and strengths. With that said I don't endeavor to try to convert anyone or deny anyone their right to convert others, rather I try to live my life as an example that there are other ways to find happiness and purpose. Live and let live and all that. I do want you to know that I am sincerely sorry, that was one of the reasons I tried to edit my response. I actually had you on ignore for a couple of weeks, but recently took you off because I thought there were other ways to handle our obvious disagreements regarding people's rights to express themselves. My personal view stems from my experiences in college and my professors, one in particular who was an anarchist. Those who don't actually know what anarchism is may think that this is strange, but those who understand the philosophical process can perhaps understand my own belief that everyone has a right to live their lives as they choose. In a perfect world those people who wanted to live a certain way could live that way with others and those that didn't could find someplace to live that suited their own beliefs, sadly that's not how the world works, but I do believe the next best thing is to allow others to believe whatever they want and to mind my own business regarding those beliefs. Normally the only time I intercede is when their beliefs tend to cross over to my own personal freedom. These last few weeks my nephew has been trying to "convert" me to vegetarianism, which is where my first response came from. I have explained to my nephew that I have no desire to be a vegetarian, his argument is that I know it's wrong and that I'm just to selfish, i.e. want to eat meat more than ease the animals suffering, and that's why I don't return to my vegetarian ways. If that was the only time this has happened that would be different, but in the past few years I have had several vegetarian friends and cohorts also try to return me to the "path" of vegetarianism and I've resisted. My experience with vegetarianism has showed me that it as much a religion as Christianity and Buddhism, regardless of the empirical evidence. The idea that because something is done wrong that everyone should simply stop doing it doesn't make sense to me. My belief is that we should instead find a better more ecologically friendly way to raise livestock. As far as the state of the world, I think the rapid expansion of suburbia is as much to blame for the ecological downturn as meat is. And yes I've read all the books on the fast food industry and I am in agreement with much of what they have to say. I personally don't eat at fast food restaurants unless I absolutely have to. I try to buy meat from farms that are ecologically friendly and treat their animals ethically. Regardless of this, I did go a bit overboard and I apologize. As for the future, I don't think we are on the same page, so to ensure that there will be no further misunderstandings I am going to place you on ignore until such time that I feel we can discuss things amicably. I have had three "incidents" with you so far and that's my limit. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just would much rather discuss things with people rather than argue points of disagreement, which is how I feel you wish to express yourself. I am currently working more than 40 hours a week and I don't have the time or inclination to waste the little free time I have debating on things that in the end matter very little. I think for the sake of the forum this will be much more harmonious than me seeing what you write and trying to be the devil's advocate. Aaron

Hello Blasto, Honestly, I love vegetarians, my nephew is one after all. I would like to point out that you seem to have no problem with people beating up Christians, but you rush to the defense of Vegetarians in an instance. I think that's a bit hypocritical, but so be it. Closing point, simply because we're raising cattle in a way that is causing damage to nature is not a reason to stop raising and eating cattle, but just a sign that we need to pursue different methods. Meat is good. Vegetables are good. There are just as many "fundamentalist" vegetarians as there are "fundamentalist" Christians (percentage wise). Why are you attacking one and not the other? You eat meat so obviously the former is attacking your way of life as well. I really don't think it has much to do with empirical evidence, rather it has to do with a perceived injustice you feel Christianity has done to you. I would rather like it if you examined this question a bit before replying, because the first answer you give might not be the most honest. Aaron edit- I've been told by more than one vegetarian that meat eaters are evil. They don't say they are morally superior, but you can put two and two together. It's sort of like "hate the sin, not the sinner". It rarely works in a practical sense. second edit- Blasto... it's quite easy to blame, not so easy to practice the solution. I would say you are ultimately the bigger hypocrite, because you know all about this empirical evidence, believe it to be true, yet you're doing nothing about it. The reason I eat meat is because I'm pretty sure the numbers are fixed.

The Tao does not justify wrong or immoral actions. The Tao in fact is simply "The Way". What springs forth from Tao is Te, virtue. Te is the natural action that arises from Tao. If one of those natural actions that arose happened to be theft or murder, there still would be no justification from Tao, rather the people judging the action would decide whether or not it was justified. This is better than your serial killer question, but I'm wondering what the purpose for asking questions where the answer just seems to be common sense is? Aaron

Why do you ask so many questions that have obvious answers? If you actually do not know this answer, then I'll enlighten you in regards to the answer. No. Why? Because the act of killing for pleasure is not in tune with our original nature or Tao. Tao is the Way, not the Way to do whatever you want that feels good. Aaron

Hello Mythmaker, That's fine. My question then is how can it be required if Buddha didn't seem to believe it was? In my opinion vegetarianism seems to be a way for people to feel superior to others. Now keep in mind I was a vegetarian for around six years, so I'm not making this argument based on conjecture. I believed the whole, "if you fed the grain the cows get to hungry people" stuff for a long time. I'm well aware of the arguments and I've come to believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with eating meat, rather vegetarianism is the same as any other ideology. One man thinks he knows what's right and tries to force their beliefs on others, either passively or aggressively. In fact most vegetarians make Christian fundamentalists look lazy when it comes to trying to convert people. One need only look at PETA to get an idea of this. In my opinion each individual should worry about what they're doing and not what everyone else is doing. If a vegetarian doesn't want to eat meat, that's fine, but they shouldn't tell everyone else what they should eat, just because they believe that their beliefs are superior somehow. (Keep in mind this isn't directed at you, but the vegetarian ideology in general). Aaron

Hello Blasto, My friend was butcher for twenty years at Winn-Dixie, which is known for providing quality meats, at least for a grocery chain. He told me that you should always smell the meat you buy, especially hamburger, because one of the first things that happens when meat begins to go bad is it begins to smell. That isn't always a sure thing though, because some stores actually vacuum pack their meat using carbon monoxide in order to ensure it maintains a healthy reddish color longer. If you feel the meat and it's slimy, that's a sure sign that it needs to go in the trash. In regards to whether or not one should eat meat, for the Buddhists out there, Buddha ate pork for his last meal. That's all that needs to be said about that topic I think. Aaron

Hello Adept, I am very sorry to hear that your wife had a miscarriage. I know that it must be extremely painful for you. A few years back my nephew passed away shy of his first birthday. It was an extremely painful experience and it took me a long time to get over it. Here was a little boy that I rocked to sleep just a few days earlier and then he was gone. I think many of us believe that understanding and awareness are meant to save us from these experiences, to somehow allow us to overcome pain and suffering, when that's not the truth. If anything they make these kinds of loss even more painful. You are right, Buddhism, Taoism, Qigong and all the other religions and practices out there, they cannot help you in that instance of loss, when the weight of world comes down on you. They aren't meant to though. Regardless of what we're taught, ideology and philosophy are just what they are, words on a page. They do not answer the question of why, rather they try to appease it, make it seem bearable, when in fact anyone who has lost someone they love can tell you that rarely does anything make it so. In the end the only thing that can help us with loss is time. The closer we are to loss, the more painful it is, but as time goes by, the loss does lessen. It does become bearable. Long ago I stopped trying to find out why bad things happen. I stopped wondering why my perfect little nephew was taken from me before he ever really had a chance to experience life. It all seemed so cruel and perhaps it was. What I never did though, was give up on life. I know that's not the answer either. I know that each day is worth living, regardless of what happens and that every moment we have with the ones we love is a blessing. Take care of your wife. Love her and show her that you are there for her, but also take care of yourself. My heart goes out to you. I hope that you can come to terms with what's happened to you. I wish there was more that I could say to help you through these tough times, but I know even what I've already said will sound hollow, so instead I will think of you and hope that you will make it through okay. Peace and love be with you, Aaron

Hello folks, I think the irony here is that what's being expressed here is a story. So my question is, are we to put down all stories, except for this one or are we to put down this story too? If we put down this story, doesn't that mean that we are to dismiss it just like all the others? If we do that, then we must revert back to the way we were before we read this story and hence, we'll just be where we were. Perhaps a better statement would be, don't take anything at face value. Examine what you are told and determine for yourself whether or not it is worth investigating. Aaron

Hello folks, I'm not sure why it matters what Immortal4Life is? If he is a Christian, more power to him. If he feels compelled to save others from damnation, and he did nothing about it, well what does that say about him? What do you accomplish by denouncing him or his beliefs? If he writes something and you don't like it, you're not obligated to say something about it. Rather than make accusations and pronouncements of guilt, I'm wondering if it's better to just let him be? On a side note, when I decide who I should listen to and who I shouldn't, the first thing I do is view how they treat others. Those people quick to accuse, point fingers, and call others names, usually have nothing to offer me, except an object lesson in the necessity of compassion. Aaron

Hehehe... are you asking me to deconstruct my ego? Aaron

Hello folks, In a different thread Marblehead asked me to start a thread about this topic. I apologize for taking so long to do it, I've had a busy schedule, but luckily I have a few days off, so since I don't have an early bedtime tonight, I thought I might give it a go. I think for most people there is this struggle within us that causes us to mistake needs and wants. We often see something as a need, when in fact it isn't. Many of us have a hard time determining what a need is. We add up all the things we need, without realizing that what we actually need is a very slim list. What we actually need in life is a very small list of things, those things are food, warmth, and nurturing. These are the same things we need as children and they don't change as we grow older. When we lack one of these things our lives can quickly become a mess. So the question is, if the list is so small, how do we confuse it with all these other things that we've come to believe are needs? Well the answer is that we are taught to believe that all these other things are needs. We need an education. We need a good paying job. We need to work hard. We need to get find our true love. The list goes on, but I'll stop there. As small children we were taught that these things are needs, that in order for our lives to have purpose that these things are required to give it purpose. We are not given the opportunity to question this, after all in school we are taught that an A is better than an F, that success is really the only option that we should strive for. We are taught at home that we should dress in a certain way, that our socks should match, as should our shoes. That we wear pants for certain occasions, shorts for others, and that the clothes we wear should be color coordinated. It doesn't seem to matter that even if we go outside with two different shoes on, a yellow shirt and pink pants, that it will still keep us warm, what seems to matter is how we appear. The same goes for education and a good paying job. We need an education and a good job, because without it, we can't afford to live a life that presents ourselves to the world as successful people. Again we never think that all we really need to do is earn or do enough to provide food for ourselves and shelter, because that isn't succeeding. In the same way we are taught that when we reach a certain age we should meet that significant someone and settle down and start a family. That somehow doing this is necessary, yet never for a moment do we stop and think that in this time and age, with the world on the brink of overpopulation, we are actually doing the world a service by abstaining from having children. We never think that "true love" isn't a necessity, that as long as we have nurturing relationships with those around us, that we are doing quite well. We fail to understand that a relationship with one's peers, one that allows one to feel safe and secure, one that allows us to offer ourselves to others and receive help when it is needed, is more than sufficient, in fact it is all that is needed. We are caught in the grips of our own identity, the measure by which we expose ourselves to the world. We are aspiring doctors, lawyers, plumbers, and cooks. We are aspiring mothers, fathers, and lovers. We rarely stop to think about what we really are and instead try to meet the requirements of the person we've been taught we are. When I mentioned that understanding one's place in the universe, one's connection to everything else in existence, helps us to understand the difference between needs and wants, what I meant is that we begin to see all these things for what they are, a carefully crafted play that we've been drafted to play a part in. When you choose to stop playing this part, to step off the stage and view the play for what it is, you begin to see that those things that are on that stage are merely props, that the sole purpose of those props is to present to your audience the splendor of your life, your part, your dramatic and comedic flourish of existence. Yet we don't even realize that this existence isn't real, in the sense that it's not serving us a purpose, merely the illusion of a purpose. We keep coming back every night, devoted actors, continuing this ongoing drama, never understanding that the drama isn't satisfying our needs, but denying us our needs. We are supplanting necessity with desire, needs with wants. When we look at it clearly and objectively we can see how hard we've worked to provide those props, how much time we've spent to perfect our parts, yet we've never really understood who we really are. We are creatures, not of habit, but of existence. Creatures of an existence so simple, that to think of its simplicity is frightening, because the simplicity is so bare, it is almost empty. The idea that so long as I'm fed and warm, so long as I have those around me that I can trust and can trust me, that I can be happy, seems not only ludicrous, but impossible. When I talk about understanding the difference, truly understanding it, I'm not talking about coming to a rational understanding, but rather understanding at your very core, that there need not be a core, that there need not be anything that defines you, except for that part of you that has been there all along. I talk about understanding who you really are, not who you've come to believe you are. And once you understand who you really are, then you can see that all these things that you've placed value on can be stolen, that the only thing you truly have that can never be stolen is you. That the true purpose is to provide for that true self, to feed and keep warm your body and soul, to nourish it with loving relationships. Not to cultivate anything, but rather allow yourself to grow as you are meant to grow. When you can do that, then you can not only understand the difference between needs and wants, but also who you are meant to be. Aaron

Hello Otis, I think people tend to take things to extremes, but that's not what I'm advocating here. I'm not saying that people need to return to a minimalist lifestyle, rather, as Manitou pointed out, we need to be grateful for what we do have. We need to appreciate when we do have enough and perhaps stop looking for goods and items to fill some void that really isn't there. In the end it's up to us to decide how we want to live our lives. Materialism has its merits, but it will only take you so far. The same with spirituality. What's needed is a middle ground, the ability to recognize what's needed at a particular time to solve a particular problem. If one understands what's necessary and what is just a desire, then they can intuitively understand what the answer to their problem is. (Keep in mind this isn't just for our materialistic needs, but also emotional and spiritual needs.) Aaron

I lump security and love in with nurturing, so we just choose a different word to describe our general belief. Well I would think the water is a necessity for the fish. Anyways, I'm glad things are going well for you. Aaron

Hello Marblehead, Very interesting points. I called the third point nurturing because I think it involves more than just security, but I do feel security is a part of it. In regard to making a decision of what is enough, I think for the vast majority of people, this can't be achieved, because they aren't even aware of what is actually necessary and what isn't. I hope life is treating you well. Aaron