Aaron

I am definitely an eighties child... I wore parachute pants and had a spike. Billy Idol was my favorite singer by the way. I disagree that todays music doesn't have heart and soul, it just takes some time to find those artists that possess these qualities. Some modern bands that I like are The Killers, Mumford and Sons, Florence and the Machine, and of course Enya and Loreena McKennitt... I actually have varied taste in music, I like to listen to classical. salsa and jazz, but I prefer to listen to live music. If I was going to suggest listening to one song it would be the following... Aaron

Hello Stig, If I've taken it personally, it's because you're insulting and belittling thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people who do not fall into your paradigm of what Taoism is. You are defining what Taoism should be and how it should be practiced and suggesting that people that do not follow this paradigm are not Taoists and shouldn't call themselves Taoists... simple answer and I think quite accurate. What I see from this post and your other thread, "Taoism the controversy continues" or whatever it was called, is an attempt to trumpet your own agenda and beliefs as the correct beliefs and denouncing and trivializing anyone that doesn't match these beliefs. My point about starting threads doesn't stop there, in fact most of your threads tend to be about enforcing your own agenda, not incorporating diversity, but rather enforcing a very close minded idea of what Taoism is, that idea being what you consider it to be. I would say that from this post and your others you have much work ahead of you if you wish to understand Wu Wei and many other concepts involved in Taoism. What you do is bring about controversy, rather than harmony. You justify your actions because you think they are good, but in this case good is irrelevant, because it's not the intention that matters, but the effect. If I could offer some advice it would be to ask yourself before you post your next thread, if your posting to feed your own ego or to further your own agenda, or is it an attempt to make the Tao Bums a better place, a more inclusive place, where people can come to together and talk about Taoism without having others question the validity of their practice? Food for thought. Aaron

Hello Stig, I think after further reading of your posts, I would have to say that you are coming across very much as an elitist. When I read your post I was surprised to find that you actually say that the only real way to appreciate Taoism is if you follow the practice as you and those you admire have defined it. (Even after I mentioned this is a common practice in my previous post and you chose to ignore that particular comment as if it was delusional.) So let me make sure I'm getting this right, if John Q Public decides that they enjoy the Tao Teh Ching, but don't necessarily want to practice Tai Chi of Qigong, then they're obviously not experiencing Taoism as it's intended, despite the fact that the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu aren't Qigong texts. I see it as the paradox of cultivation. You're either a cultivator or not. If not, then you obviously are not practicing the authentic tradition. I've see this attitude with the I-Kuan Tao followers before. It's nice to know this air of superiority doesn't necessarily restrict itself to sects and fundamentalists. If this seems a bit harsh, it's only because I'm not sure what you're actually saying, because you seem a bit wishy washy on this point. So here's the question, are Western Taoists (who choose not practice Qigong of Tai Chi) practicing a valid form of Taoism or is your own view the only valid one? I hope life is treating you well. Aaron

Hello Taomeow, Perhaps. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. The difference is that you're confusing the idea of defining with applying a value to something. I am not applying value, but rather explaining how something functions, part of it's purpose. I think you are right in the sense that when we apply value to something we begin to restrict it, simply because we've applied a value to it and not allowed it to be what it is, but if you feed into this idea that defining something fragments it, then you're left with the idea that the Tao can never be fully explained, and that my friend is the crux, or what con-men call the grift. If you tell someone that something cannot be defined and that anyone that tries to define it doesn't know what it is, then you hold onto a sacred knowledge all to yourself where you can wink and smile and say, "you are not quite there yet grasshopper." Remember the Tao Teh Ching was written over a lengthy period of time with tracts added during that process, did you ever think that perhaps that line was added so that people wouldn't necessarily question what the Tao was? Doesn't it seem likely that this may have been added as a way of keeping students and followers in tow with the temple line? I think the problem, and this was a problem for me for several years/decades, was that I accepted things at face value without questioning them. As I've started to truly look into the ideas surrounding enlightenment, Tao, and the nature of existence, I've learned to look at things objectively and subjectively, to both embrace and question, to not simply accept something as being correct because others have told me it was, but to examine it's authenticity. When I examine and look at the Tao Teh Ching I begin to see things that pop up in other religions as well, the need to propose moral guidelines for appropriate behavior being the key similarity. This doesn't mean it's bad, in fact I'm sure during the time it was needed to help maintain order and balance in a warring society. Now though, we have the luxury of examining these ideas in a way that allows us to see what aspects are valid and what are not. We can in fact get down to the root of the matter. In regards to describing Tao, I tend to believe it can be described and many people have, but because people blindly follow tradition they've overlooked these definitions simply because they've been led to believe it can't or shouldn't be done. Anyways, thanks for your response. I do appreciate your input. Aaron edit- I'd also like to add that I didn't intend for this to become a debate about whether or not Tao can be explained/defined, but rather as a means for people to share their own views and understanding of Tao.

LOL... I really didn't expect an explanation, but thanks for giving one. I remember studying old english in college and my professor explained that they used a double V when printing because it came out more clearly than a double U. I'm actually very interested in the influence of Sanskrit on Western languages, so thanks for the tidbit regarding that. Aaron

Hello Marblehead, The idea of the collective or universal conscious, the God conscious for lack of a better definition comes from the work of quantum physicist Amit Goswami. If you've studied physics in college, then there's a good chance you've actually studied using the textbook he wrote. If you have the time and access to netflix you can watch a very enlightening (pun intended) documentary about the good doctor entitled, "Quantum Activist". I think what people may have problems envisioning is this concept of conscious, in part because they view it as a conscious action that decides what is happening within the world, when in fact the Universal Conscious or collected conscious isn't that at all, but rather the process that allows the world to function. I am particularly tickled by the number of people that are happy to say this is wrong, but haven't given any explanation of their own. (Yes I'm aware some have, but I would like to hear more about this, especially since as "Taoist" the Tao is the crux for our philosophical and religious basis. With that said, I have long since ceased being a Taoist, in fact I find claiming to be one thing or the other changes little in the grand scheme of things. My main purpose for starting this thread was to share my own recent views, which may change in time, and compare them to other people's views. I would encourage people to set aside their apprehension regarding describing Tao and give it a go. You wont go to Taoist hell for doing so, but it may help you to understand a bit more about what you're actually believing. Aaron

Hello Taomeow, I disagree. I had this same conversation with a friend of mine today. He stated Tao isn't something that can be defined, but rather a process. My argument is that by being a process it becomes a thing. What we're getting hung up on is the idea that by describing Tao we're committing some kind of heresy, when in fact, as others have already stated, those who came after Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu in particular examined Tao, and attempted to explain what it was as clearly as they could. To go one step further, if it is a process, something drives that process, so perhaps what I'm describing isn't Tao, the process, but the why for the process. Just some food for thought. Aaron

Here's a question that needs answering in my opinion, why do they call it a double U, when it looks more like a double V? I look forward to anyone that might enlighten us on this very deep and spiritual topic. Perhaps this answer will help us all find our inner u's or v's... double or single. Aaron

Hello guys, Thanks for the kind words. In regards to describing the Tao, I would agree, there is a fine balance that needs to be met when one decides to explain something such as the Tao. Perhaps I do not know, perhaps what I'm describing isn't Tao, but my own realization regarding this came as a result of seeing the similarities between this collective conscious (note this isn't the collective unconscious) and the Tao. The similarities between the two, at least as it's described in Taoist texts is astounding. I hope to hear more about how other people feel about this topic. Lets keep up the old Chuang Tzu tradition. Aaron

That's horrible that this happened, but I'm sure you'll find in the next few weeks that this man was killed for some other reason and that this was merely an excuse. In my non-professional opinion, if he had killed the man because of homosexual overtures, then he would have to be extremely homophobic and prone to violent outbursts. Taking the time to place a rock in a sock and beat him to death isn't necessarily indicative of that kind of mindset, but rather indicates premeditation that would lead one to believe that he was killing the man for some other reason and using stoning as an alibi in order to lesson the severity of the crime. With that said, he really is a lone nutter. If you see one case like this in five years you're lucky. Of course if you want to overreact and blow it out of proportions, that's your prerogative. As for me, I'll just be happy that the vast majority of people in the US don't actually feel this way. As an aside, you obviously have strong feelings about Mainstream Christianity, which is one of the reasons I haven't responded to your comments, because I didn't want to be pulled into a debate about the topic. I would recommend that you examine the reason for this hatred and intolerance, because in the end it's probably causing you to suffer more than it is the Christians and other religious people that you seem to disagree with. Aaron edit- Also I am gay... so my joke comment wasn't meant to be homophobic, but rather humorous.

Hello Blasto, Did they actually refer to stoning? If so then you may have something to worry about. My opinion is that no one's opinion matters. Opinions don't change anything, things are what they are. I tend to worry about how people behave, more than what they actually think. With that said, I'm not advocating moralism, rather what I am saying is that you can tell a lot about someone by what they do, rather than what they say. With that said, I wouldn't say anything about this, unless I felt it was worth adding. In the end the easiest way to live peacefully with your neighbor is to stay in your own yard. Thank you for the hugs, but next time keep your hands north of the border. Just kidding... hehehe... that made me laugh. Aaron

Hello Blasto, I didn't mean to imply that there was a dualism involved, in fact there is none, at least in my opinion. From my experience and understanding we are all simply one creation. We are all simply It. The separation I was pointing to was the reason why people can't simply will themselves to connect to the Tao, which is simply because we are educated to believe that we are dualistic creatures. My perception of Tao is not reliant strictly on Taoism either, but rather my understanding as it evolved from Buddhism and Vendanta Hunduism. I hope that clears things up. I found nothing off-putting about your response. I also have no problem with people citing sources, but I ultimately like to hear what people's own opinions are. With that said, I did like the description of dualism you cited. Aaron

When I was first practicing hypnosis, I used to do past life regressions at parties. One girl had a very detailed past life regression. She remembered the house she lived in, the master of the house (she was the daughter of a servant at the house) and the actual location of the house in London. I kept notes of everything she said and later checked it out and found out that the street existed at the location she said. She got nearly 70 percent of all the information correct, and she had never ever been to England. Go figure. Aaron

The thing you fail to see is that violence begets violence. When one reacts with hate it brings about hate. The only real way to have peace is to live peacefully. The only way to show a sincere love and compassion for all people is to treat everyone with love and compassion. You don't have to agree with what this person says, but in the same sense when you call him names or ridicule what he says, what you're actually doing is kicking the hornets nest. When you react to what he says, you actually empower him more than if you simply ignore him. Aaron edit- And lets be honest, in the world we live in today, the chances that he'll ever be able to stone you is slim, at least in California, so in the end there's no skin of your nose.

Just getting tired of all the hypocrisy and bigotry hiding out under the guise of wisdom and intellectualism. I would recommend that the people making fun of Christianity right now should remember this next time someone makes fun of something they believe in... what's good the for the goose and all that. Aaron

Hello NMTNMT, Weren't you the one that got upset when people were insinuating that the Japanese were sexual deviants? Why is it okay for you to ridicule Christianity, but it's not okay for others to make negative comments about something you revere? There seems to be a lot of short term memory loss in this forum. In the future, I would recommend, rather than acting like hypocrites, that you guys treat others with the same degree of respect you want people to treat you and your ideas. (I'm sure the others know who they are.) Aaron

This post was moved because it violates the posting guidelines for the Tao Teh Ching subforum. Please review the Tao Teh Ching Subforum FAQ if you have any questions. Aaron

Hello Blasto, I'm wondering what makes you different from this guy? He doesn't believe the Mayans, you don't believe him. I'm sure he speaks ill of others beliefs and you speak ill of his beliefs. Perhaps it's because you're right and he's wrong? Maybe you should be less concerned with what others believe and more concerned with what you believe? Aaron

I think it's important to keep a clear and cool head regarding this. The longterm ramifications are startling, but the chances of this becoming a global catastrophe are minimal and very slim. Rather than speculate, I think it's best to wait and see what happens. With that said, I feel for those people in Japan now. If anything, this is a lesson for us all. I'm wondering how many more accidents like this have to happen before we understand that nuclear power isn't a viable solution to the energy crisis. Aaron

Hello Stigweard, I would like to know what the purpose of this thread is? What was your intention? To me it seems like you're starting the same thread over and over trying to get the reaction and answer that you want. Perhaps you should look within and see exactly why you feel so strongly about this? To me it's all silly squabbling that has no purpose or reason, except to stroke one's own ego and feel superior to others. Bigotry, regardless of how you wrap it up, is still bigotry. If someone is not interested in the religious aspect of Taoism, but rather the philosophical aspect, there should be no reason why they can't explore that further. I find it particularly interesting that the people that claim that they don't really care about this argument (i.e. Western Taoists aren't real Taoists) are the quickest to point out this fact, but always remind us that it doesn't matter. Well let me be honest, it does matter to me, that's why I'm responding to this argument. Regardless of the validity of this argument, the fact is there is a new form of Taoism present in the world today. Whether you call it Popular Western Taoism, Pooh Bear Taoism, or Modern Neo-Taoism, it's there and it's alive and it has a strong following. The more important question and the one often overlooked is why Westerners seem to follow the more philosophical approach to Taoism and I think there is a simple answer. Our own philosophical understanding stems from Socratic philosophy, the idea that the unexamined life is not worth living. We are more interested in the physical world and how the physical world works, rather than the idea that there are supernatural forces at work in the universe that somehow influence our lives. When the westerner views Taoism they understand it differently than the Chinese, simply because there is a cultural difference. I think the argument might be made that the Westerner may actually understand it more clearly, because they tend to see it undiluted by thousands of years of religious and cultural alteration. I could never be a Religious Taoist (i.e. Traditional Taoist) for the simple reason that I don't believe in Dragons, the river spirits, or the Celestial Court. I choose to apply those aspects of Taoism that I think are relevant to my life and leave out those aspects that I feel are superstitious and have no factual basis. If that makes me a Pooh Bear Taoist, so be it, but trust me when I say that regardless of who it is, when they choose to ridicule someone else's beliefs and label them with a derogatory term like that, they've lost my respect as an academic. In the end Pooh Bear Taoism is not going away and whether others choose to try to convert Western Taoists to "true Taoism" or not, it doesn't matter. The Western world will never be able to embrace Religious Taoism en masse, rather you'll find that, much as Western Buddhism, they'll take those aspects of the philosophy that they can relate to and apply it to their own perception. If the Chinese could do this to Buddhism 1500 years ago, why can't we do that to Taoism today? Stop hating and just let it go. Aaron

I coined a description (at least I think I did) that I think differentiates between Taoism as it's practiced in the East and how it's practiced in the West. For me there is Traditional Taoism, which is the various sects that exist in China and Taiwan, then there is Modern Neo-Taoism, which is a form of Taoism practiced primarily by Western Taoists that consists of the philosophical tenants of Taoism, with a focus on the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most Modern Neo-Taoists do not follow any specific religious ideology, but rather view Taoism as a philosophical school founded by Lao Tzu. Amongst Modern Neo-Taoists can be found practitioners of various Chinese medicinal and martial arts, including Qi-Gong, Feng Shui and Tai Chi Chuan, but it is by no means a defining characteristic. The major difference between Traditional Taoists and Modern Neo-Taoists is that Traditional Taoists follow a practice that includes to varying degrees, deities, spiritual forces, a belief in immortals, and a reverence for ancestors, whereas Modern Neo-Taoists focus on the philosophical aspects of Taoism, primarily Wu-Wei, the Three Jewels, and Tao (which I should add is also present in Traditional Taoism). Anyways, I don't think it's a big deal anymore, but at one time I did. I have dealt with this "you're not a real Taoist because you're white/hispanic/african american/eskimo/etc." and the "you don't understand Taoism because you weren't raised in China/Taiwan" for some time now and I've chocked this mindset up to bigotry and racism. In the end if you want to call yourself a Taoist, then there should be no reason why you can't. Aaron

Hello folks, I know this topic has been done before, but I thought I might share some of the things I'm going through. I was receiving monthly payments for a severance from my last job, but it ended this month. Now I am currently unemployed and without an income. Since my severance only added up to about fifty percent of my actual income before being fired, I had to pay for much of my living expenses with my savings, which means I am completely broke. I will pay this months bills, but I have no idea where the money for my next months bills are coming from. It's tough. I know there are a lot of people going through the same thing, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm going through it right now. I have two options, I can give up and sleep in and get depressed or I can do what I can to make this situation better. If it was just me, I wouldn't worry about these things, because I really could care less, living in a tent at a campground isn't really so bad, but I have a roommate, who also happens to be my brother, who can't afford to pay all the bills with his income either, so I have to do what I can do. This is the thing that people keep forgetting. Enlightenment isn't about never experiencing problems, but rather understanding the nature of your problems. I understand that none of this matters, but that it also matters. Living your life doesn't end once you've reached an understanding of how the world works (or you think it works) you still have to live your life. I am doing what I can to live my life. I do the best I can and I can't really do any better than that. I guess my point is, there are things that are still important, even if you understand that they really aren't that important. There are things that need to be done, even if you know they don't need to be done. Debating about enlightenment, telling others how they should live their lives, doesn't change the fact that you need to live your own life. I have no doubt that what will happen will happen. I will not worry about next month until next month arrives. I will worry about the here and now, what I am doing to meet my own needs and ensure that I am not a burden on others. As long as I do this, then I'm doing what I am supposed to do. If you're having problems, then I'm there with you. I hope things are going well for everyone and regardless of how life treats you I sincerely hope that peace is with you. Aaron

hello Kali Yuga, I wanted to respond to your post. I think you make some valid points, but you're missing the message. I'm not saying that people, not necessarily religious people, can't be closed minded and bigoted, but what I can say is that I don't experience much bigotry. I am gay. When I was a teenager I attended a church (many years before I ever came out of the closet.) My sister-in-law was a member of this church then and still is today. She is what I would call a devoted Christian. I had my doubts about coming out to her, but my brother assured me she'd be fine with it and you know what, she is. In fact she's absolutely fine with it. She encourages me to date, because she says no one should be alone. Many of my friends are members of this church. They were my friends before I came out and remained my friends after I came out. (Ironically many of my non-religious friends didn't react the same way.) The reason we get along is that I don't push my lifestyle on them and they don't push theirs on me. Do they ever talk to me about God or Jesus? All the time, but they're not pushy, rather they have a deep concern for my spiritual well-being. These people do not believe I am headed to hell because I am gay, nor have they ever said that. They'll tell me honestly that they believe I'm sinning, but that they don't have the right to judge me for that. Here's the other shocker, I live across the street from a Mosque. No one from that mosque has ever said a bad word to me. Never. Do they know I'm gay? Some do, but that doesn't change their attitude about me. You see what you fail to realize is that, despite what you may have been led to believe, the world is changing and people are changing. The vast majority of people that are religious aren't fundamentalists, they understand that the stuff they read in their religious texts was written many many years ago and doesn't necessarily apply to what's happening in the world today. Most are happy that women have rights and are fine with homosexuals, even if they don't agree with their lifestyles. You know who I have the most trouble with, it's not the moderate Christians, but people that are ignorant. The problem again is not religion, but ignorance. It's blindly believing something without understanding why you believe what you do. When you advise that religions are harmful, I say without religion we wouldn't be the civilization we are today, Western or Eastern. Without religion we would still be following the "what's best for me" mentality, rather than the "what's best for everyone" mentality that was the original basis for religion. Have we outgrown religion? Obviously not, but what is happening is that the vast majority (yes majority) of religious people are understanding the need for tolerance. Do they vote against gay marriage? Yes, but I don't believe it's because of hate, but rather ignorance. When I say worry about what you're doing and not what others are doing, I mean it. I do it and it works for me. I rarely have issues with straight people, rather it's with my gay friends who see me as complacent. I say, "give it time" but their answer is always, "we want it now." Nothing changes overnight. It probably wont change in my lifetime, but I can see it and I know that in fifty years the world (if we're still around then) will be a much different place. You can rail about all the injustices, superstitions, and enforced morality all you want, but I know that I am free to choose whom I want to be with and no one can stop me. That wasn't possible thirty years ago in most parts of the world, today it is. Are there places that are still behind the times? Yes, but change is happening everywhere and if we're patient, understanding, and compassionate, it will continue to change. Well that's enough out of me. Again, I think if anyone has a right to complain, I do, but I wont, because I understand that the problem everyone is seeing is slowly but surely solving itself. People want to do what's right. If you let them, rather than force them, then they'll do it, but again, it just takes time. Aaron

Hello guys, Thanks for the support. I understand your concern regarding acceptance. I think for me, I'm not accepting the future, so much as accepting what happens as it happens. I've been looking for jobs today, but the market is a bit slim. I have found out that I can work as a substitute teacher if I get desperate, so I have options. Again, for me, it's just doing what I'm supposed to do and understanding that if I do that, I've done what I am supposed to do. Aaron