Aaron

Hello Vaj, I think you may be missing my point. In the end the idea of something being stupid is subjective and if you have reached enlightenment, then you understand that subjectivity is merely an illusion as well. I was talking about this elsewhere, so perhaps it can be used to illustrate this point as well. As human beings we tend to view things in absolutes, good and bad, or as Alan Watts puts it, good vs bad, the Black and White game. The problem is that absolutes are merely opposite ends of the same thing. Birth is better than death, yet both are required for life to exist. Charity requires greed, yet charity is seen as more important than greed, yet greed is required for charity to be appreciated. If one realizes that their own values cannot exist without someone else having different values, then they begin to appreciate those differences and see them as a necessity for their own enlightenment. Those ideas you see as stupid are necessary, because if they didn't exist you would see your own views as being intelligent. Of course the trick is to understand that your views are stupid, especially to the person who views their own ideas as intelligent. If you really want to transcend this world, then first accept all things as they are, understand nothing has more value than anything else, then these other things will fall into place. This doesn't mean that it's acceptable to do bad things, only that bad things exist for a reason, and that by understanding this, you can truly have insight into what is necessary and what isn't. Aaron

Hello folks, One area that I have little knowledge of, but wish to learn more about, are the theories regarding early civilizations that existed before historical documentation. One thing that has always puzzled me is how it took mankind 150,000 years to figure out how to make nets, harpoons, etc. I've always wondered if perhaps we had developed an advanced civilization before that time, only to have some great disaster destroy it, perhaps the eruption of the Toba Volcano? (Especially since only after its eruption do we find archaeological evidence of tools and hunting implements.) It would seem, though, that if we can find evidence of dinosaurs from millions of years ago, that we would also find evidence of advanced cultures that existed prior to historical records, unless those cultures were more Taoist in nature. Perhaps this is what Lao Tzu was pointing to when he talks about the past? Anyways, just something I find interesting. Aaron

Vaj, I think the problem stems from your comment, "and not just boost their stupid sense of self referential pride"... you are holding these people's beliefs in contempt and they're feeling that. If you truly wish to show compassion for all people, then you must also accept these people for who and what they are, whether they act or think the way you want them to, or not. In my experience enlightenment does not obliterate the self, it is still there, rather it allows you to understand the true nature of self, that you are not the passenger in a vehicle, but rather the entirety of everything in existence and once you understand that, you can open your eyes and for a second see the connection, that the space that exists doesn't exist and rather you are part of a greater whole. I use this analogy. The stomach has bacteria that helps us to digest food. This bacteria is microscopic and seems to be separate from us, yet without it, we can't digest food. The fact is this bacteria is a part of our body, just as we are a part of much larger body. Being a part of the body, means we are the body. The existence of the body requires each part to exist as well, if you take away one, the rest can't survive. This interdependence means our body is not made of separate organisms, but rather it's a single organism with different functions. If you are a part of a greater whole, then you also understand that by harming any other part of that whole, you also harm yourself. That is where true compassion stems, the knowledge that everything is not just related, but rather is the same thing, that by doing good for you, I am not just doing good for me, but I am doing good to me. Now knowing this doesn't mean that one understands it on an enlightened or aware level, only that they have a knowledge of the topic. Being knowledgeable doesn't mean one is enlightened, enlightenment comes from awareness, that moment of realization that persists, rather than dissipates with time. That is the difference between being enlightened and having brief glimpses of enlightenment. Aaron

Hello Thelerner, If you strip away the religious ideology from Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Taoism, what you find is that all of these religions basically believe enlightenment is achieved in the same way, but even more importantly agree about the basic precepts of enlightenment, i.e. detachment, freeing one's self from the ego, emptiness, etc. I personally practiced Taoism for 19 years and never really understood more than just a basic assumption of enlightenment, Tao, and ego, it wasn't until I was exposed to Vendanta Hinduism via Alan Watts' "The Book" that I suddenly became aware of what this all means on an experiential level. I would consider myself enlightened now, at least in regards to understanding the nature of the ego, the truth about reality, and also what Tao is, but trying to explain this is pointless, because it doesn't make sense unless one already has sufficient practice and understanding to grasp the concepts. With that in mind, it's also important to keep in mind that enlightenment isn't necessary, rather it's voluntary. One can lead a fulfilling life simply by doing what he or she does everyday. In fact enlightenment will not remove you from suffering or grant you freedom from your emotions, rather it allows you to view the world as it actually is and in so doing, grants you freedom from the restraints that ego places on you. I would say that enlightenment can be achieved in nearly every religion if one is diligent, but in the same way, I also encourage people to understand why they wish to be enlightened. If one is building a foundation, it should be a sound one. A shoddy foundation will lead to shoddy spirituality. Aaron

Hello folks, Just as a point of reference, Robert Bruce came about this a bit late, Alan Watts proposed this idea in "The Book" which is based on Vedanta Hinduism (and published when Bruce was about 10 or so). To simplify it, and hopefully not show any disrespect to the philosophy, which I follow and believe to be true, it goes as follows. A long, long time ago, God got bored and decided that it wished to experience more than what was, so God decided to become something more and in deciding created the universe and everything else. In so doing this, God became everything that exists now, the plants, the animals, and yes even the people. The idea goes that God will continue to exist in this form until there is a mass awakening of all the higher beings, a wakening whereby they understand that they are God and rather than return to this world, become God once more. Of course this is rooted (imo) in proto-Zoroastrianism. The people that eventually migrated to India and China from Turkmenistan, carried much of this original thought with them. This is the reason why the core basic beliefs of Taoists thought are so similar to Hinduism and also Buddhism (which took much of it's philosophy from Hinduism), because the core beliefs of this ancient religion, the first proto-monotheistic (and dualistic) religion were carried on and evolved in their own ways over time. Anyways, it may seem a bit outlandish at first, but if you merely replace the word God with Tao, I think you'll be more understanding of how the basic ideas are similar. Aaron

Hello UFTA, What you're talking about isn't magic, but rather visualization. This sort of thing is more akin to hypnosis, it is a practice that uses intense visualization to encourage success in a certain endeavor. The difference is that visualization is not tapping into magical forces, but rather fine-tuning the mind so that one can perform a certain task better. Many successful athletes do this sort of mental exercise, including Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Visualizing what needs to be done, prior to attempting the action, prepares you for when you actually attempt the task. The difference between chi-kung and tai chi and the magic arts, is that the former, although based on a source that cannot be scientifically proven to exist (in the west), also have verifiable benefits to the practitioners. People who practice these arts tend to heal faster and suffer from fewer illnesses. Also these arts teach the value of self discipline, concentration, and awareness of one's physical wellbeing. Does Chi exist? Well I for one believe it does, but I can't prove it does. Is Chi magic? Some would classify it as such, but I think generally speaking, most people that practice these arts would not consider it magical in the least. In regards to magic, I know several people that have suffered severe mental breakdowns because of their dabbling in the arts. One girl that comes to mind practiced spells from the Necronomicon (which is a completely fake manuscript by the way) and also Tantric Magic. One morning her mother found her in a psychotic state. She believed that something was coming after her. I remember visiting her in the hospital. I talked to her for awhile and she seemed quite normal, then all of a sudden jumped and asked me in a low voice, "do you hear that?" I asked her what she heard and she stated, "they're in the ceiling, can't you hear them?" A short while later she became extremely agitated and the nurses had to restrain her and sedate her. The last I heard she was in a mental hospital in Washington state. She has been there for twenty years. This experience was one of the reasons I stopped practicing magic and started to study psychology. On another note, I have practiced hypnosis for years as a means of pain management and health treatment. I have done some pretty amazing things that otherwise might be considered superstitious. Hypnosis can allow people to do thing they might not ordinarily be able to do. The fact that hypnosis is currently being used as an alternative to anesthesia for surgery, tends to lend credence to the practice, but there is still a lot that isn't known about it. All in all, what we believe is magic, oftentimes is just our ability to tap into unknown resources of the mind. When something strange does happen I think it's a good idea to look at what happens and decide whether what's happening could be coincidental or indicative of something else, before one begins to label it as magic. Aaron

Hello Heaven Chi, I am loath to question someone's beliefs, but sometimes, especially when you see someone suffer when they shouldn't be, I feel compelled to act. In this particular instance I see you suffering and I want to try and ease that suffering if I can. With that in mind I ask that you read this in its entirety so that you can understand everything I am sharing with you. Black magic has been around for as long as mankind. In order to truly understand black magic, one must also understand the basic premise of magic. Magic as it was practiced in the ancient world has not changed much in modern times. The theory goes that there is an underlying force that is at work in the world, one that is based on the principles of sympathy. In this regard I think its origins are linked to the old shamanic views of the world, that one can influence the natural forces and cause things to happen through this manipulation. In psychology they call this type of thinking magical thinking. Magical thinking is when the five year old believes his father died in a car accident because he refused to go to bed on time, or the soldier believes that his fellow soldier died because he did not go out on patrol. It's our belief that our actions can cause inexplicable effects on others. The reason that people often believe these things is because it allows them some control over something they have no control over. It's easier to blame one's self than to accept that one has no control over what happens to them or their loved ones. Black magic by definition is the attempt to cause someone harm through magical means. In most magical schools it is also believed that when one performs an act of black magic, that they also suffer the effects of sympathy, most of the time several degrees worse than whatever one curses another. In many cultures black magic is used to explain acts that one can't seem to explain any other way. If one suffers bad luck or starts to have strange things happen, it is quite easy to blame someone else for that, than to accept that something just might be happening. As people are drawn further and further into magical thinking, they can begin to create incidents to justify their belief. Sometimes they create these instances in order to support their own self worth. For instance someone with low self esteem may believe that forces are attacking them because they are important. They will see omens, hear voices, feel presences, and numerous other things, in order to justify their control over these things (after all acknowledging that you are under attack by another force means that these bad things that happen aren't random after all, thus you have had control over them, even in an indirect way.) If one believes in magic, then one is opening themselves up to this type of action and the psychosomatic results can cause one to become sick or even begin to have psychotic events that support that these types of incidents are actually happening. Again there is no evidence to support that magic exists in the sense that many people believe it does. People that do not believe in magic never seem to suffer the effects of magic, good or bad. If someone casts a curse on someone who is a non-believer, most often they will also do other things that have physical effects on that person as well. They will do things like vandalize their property or in ancient times even poison them, in order to prove that their magical powers work. In voodoo they use various chemicals to cause this to happen, for instance it has long been known that "zombies" are nothing more than people who have been poisoned. The poison causes death like symptoms and also results in serious brain damage. The people that survive are highly open to suggestion. To people that don't understand what's actually happened, it is very easy to assume that this person was cursed and changed into a zombie. This is just one example, but there are numerous others as well. My point is (and keep in mind I practiced magic for years) that magic in this form doesn't actually exist. The force that these people believe they can manipulate, can't actually be manipulated. It is the raw force of nature that works under laws and principles that we as humans cannot actively manipulate through force of mind alone. As long as you continue to believe in magic, then you leave yourself open to its effects. When you accept that the world is not entirely explainable, that things sometimes happen for no reason, and that you don't have to explain why these things happen, rather just accept that they do happen, when you can take responsibility for what happens in the world, even if it's just as simple as accepting that it didn't happen because of you, then you can overcome this need for a force to explain these things for you. In the end the suffering you are experiencing is caused by you, not others. I would suggest that you take a break from magic and meditation until you come to terms with whatever is causing you to feel a low self image and the need to be more than what you are. There was a time when I wished I was a powerful man that had control over everything that might cause me harm, a man that people needed to respect and even fear, but that time is over. I accept that life is ordinary, that I do not need to know everything and that what I do know about life is quite enough. I understand that the ordinary is quite extraordinary, that love and compassion are far more powerful than charms, curses, and rituals. I understand now that the true magic in living is being able to live in harmony with those around me. I hope you solve your dilemma in one way or another, but what I might suggest is that you look inside yourself to find the answers, and that if you do this, you may very well find everything that you are actually looking for. Aaron

There's this story I remember, it goes like this. There was this student who wanted to be like Buddha and believed that by meditating he would become like Buddha. The Master picked up a clay tablet and began polishing it. The student asked the master what he was doing, the master replied, "I am polishing this clay tablet into a mirror." The student asked, "how can you polish a clay tablet into a mirror?" To which the master replied, "how can you become a Buddha by sitting?" The moral, contrary to what one might believe on the surface, is not that meditation is not required (even though it's not), but rather that it alone is not enough. You are misunderstanding the purpose of meditation (as I did for quite awhile), meditation is not meant to enlighten us or bring us peace and serenity, it alone cannot do that, rather it is like a pair a scissors to a tailor, used wisely it can help to cut the fabric into the shapes we need, but we can't forget that we also need other tools as well, if we are to create the clothes we wish to dress ourselves in. I would suggest that you read a few books that might help you to understand the nature of the world a bit more, they wont make you aware of the world, but they can start you on your path. Once you read those books (and preferably talk to someone who has already learned to be a tailor) I think it will be easier for you to make your clothes, rather than try to learn all by yourself. Remember having someone teach you will definitely make it quicker and easier. Aaron

I said the same thing about my generation when I was young. It's just easier to blame than to accept responsibility for what is in front of you, regardless of whether you're responsible for it or not. The fact is the world is not to your liking, but that doesn't mean it's not the way it should be or is supposed to be. He who knows the Tao does not speak, he who speaks does not know. This brings to mind the current generation of Taoist Masters that are publishing books, holding seminars, and generally attempting to acquire riches in the name of Taoism. When you right books like "The Tao of Success" it seems to contradict everything that the Tao Teh Ching talks about. First we're not supposed to strive to be successful, rather we're supposed to strive to work in harmony with each other. Lao Tzu himself says that what he teaches is simple, but the world doesn't understand these teachings. This hasn't changed in the last 2,000 years, because man's is still living an ego driven existence. We expect the world to change, but let me tell you, it's not going to change, because it's exactly the way it's supposed to be. There's nothing wrong with the world, in fact the world isn't expected to change, the individual is supposed to take responsibility for his own life and change his own life however he deems he should. If you really want to see a difference in the world, stop judging, even those who judge, and let others live the way they want to live and you live the way you want to. Do what you should and what should happen will happen. Aaron

I prefer cornbread. It's not a cake, nor a biscuit. Aaron

I say the guy who's exercising daily, managing his stress, and eating healthy, regardless of whether he's good or bad, is going to live longer. The whole, only the good die young thing, was brought about as an argument against piety. I mean really, do you think that line worked on Virginia? Aaron

Hello Vortex, When you point a finger at someone else, four more point back at you. In this case that's true. You're every bit as guilty of the racism and bigotry in this thread as anyone else. Rather than continue to defend yourself under the pretense that it was an example, accept your portion of the blame and move on. Perhaps this discussion deserves a bit of a rest, so that we can all get a clear idea of what the topic is actually about. Aaron

I think you're making blanket statements again, without really understanding what you're attacking. Why do you believe life after death matters to Buddhists? Why do you believe it matters to Christians? Why do you believe it matters to Moslems? You're lumping them all in the same group, so is it for the same reason, or is it just convenient? Where is your proof that these philosophies place more emphasis on what happens after one dies than when one is alive? Or is that not important, rather it's the idea that someone would be so ignorant as to believe in life after death? I really don't think you have a valid point here. I don't believe you're a bigot, but when I hear you say stuff like this I worry what others might think. Aaron

Hello MH, I think Cow Tao made a valid point, this really wasn't necessary, it's antagonistic and shows a lack of respect, almost bigotry. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but when you make blanket statements that belittle or demean others, that's what it comes across as. In the end if it really didn't matter, you wouldn't have made the second comment. Apparently it does matter to you. Aaron

Hello Cat Pillar, I don't think this topic can ever be beaten into glue. I think the question is not only important, but one we all struggle with at some point in our life. There's a reason so many religious sermons remind us constantly of what happens after we die, it's because if they don't we'll start to have questions. For me, I'm one of those people that are certain about what happens, because I did have an experience that assured me of what happens, but even if I did not have this experience I think there are some very basic points that can be made that can grant anyone peace, even if perhaps they don't feel their consciousness will exist after they die. First we are more than our consciousness, we are our hair, our nails, even our lungs. We have this idea that we are passengers in a vehicle, forgetting that we are actually the vehicle. We are not within our bodies, we are our bodies. Our bodies are part of a larger organism, the universe. Much like the bacteria that exist within our stomachs to help us digest food, we play a part in the universe. This part doesn't end when we die, rather death is a part of it. "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust..." in other words, from whence we came, we will return. Taoists believe this too by the way, that we arise from emptiness and return to emptiness. Vedanta takes this a step further and says that everything arises from the same source and because it arises from the same source everything is everything, in other words we are the completeness of the universe. I am you and you are me. If you die and I don't you haven't died. So if this is true what can we make of death? Well it's just a transference of energy in the long run. Our bodies, having served their purpose in one way, serve a different purpose. But if that's so does our consciousness cease to exist once we die? After all isn't our consciousness merely made of cells in the brain? Science seems to think so. You poke one part of the brain and it triggers an emotion, another and your foot itches, that seems to be logical proof that consciousness is contained within the brain, but what about the other things that exists within us? Many religions believe that we are made up of three parts that combined make up the whole, the body, the spirit, and the mind. When we die the body and mind die as well, but the spirit lives on. Science knows that at the time of death we weigh less than we did when we were alive, yet there doesn't seem to be any verifiable proof as to why this happens. I personally believe that the spirit leaves our body and rejoins the immaterial, but you don't have to, because even if you have doubts about this, what this says is that when we die something changes, something that we are not completely certain about. What I will say is this, even if I am not reincarnated, I know that I will continue to exist. My atoms will go on, just as yours will. My consciousness is made up of those atoms, and when those atoms join the rest of the atoms in this universe, I join this universe as well (even though really I'm a part of it now). I'm not so worried about whether I will remember everything I remember now, because that's not the important thing, in fact it's a bit selfish. What I will worry about is how I can be of service to this world while I am here and be thankful that even in death something good can come of me. Aaron

Hello Vortex, I never said the Japanese were more prone to anything, but rather they were equally guilty of it. The only reason women don't get groped on trains in Los Angeles is because gropers would spend five years in jail and have to register as sex offenders if they got caught. What you're doing is not offering a broader cultural perspective, but rather using shock value as a means to perpetuate your argument. The fact is men are sexual beings and the more sex is repressed socially the more likely someone from that culture will end up deviating from the norm. The fact is a lot of japanese marriages are not marriages of love, but rather convenience. The important thing to the mother and father, is not that they love each other, but rather that they raise children that will be successful. This is the same thing that occurs in many Asian cultures. There's nothing wrong with this, in fact I think it's honorable that parents would put their children's needs before their own, that they would view the institution as more than an emotional contract, but a serious relationship between two people, rather than base it's value solely on emotional compatibility. If we really want to explore this apparent sexlessness, then it goes much deeper than just sexual repression, but also touches on the moral and emotional repression, social repression. Perhaps, rather than quote random facts that have very little to do with the conversation at hand, you could actually try to examine the topic in depth. Right now you're doing a very poor job of defending anyone, rather you're just pissing off a lot of people. Aaron

Hello Vortex, I never made a comment in this thread until my last post, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I don't like statistics. I think in the eyes of the religious all men are perverts. I am not saying anyone is worse than anyone else, but rather that saying that one race is more prone to child rape than another is not only bigoted, but also ignorant. Rather than defend the Japanese by saying, "well they're not as perverted as those people." Why don't you try and come up with a valid argument, instead of trying to shift the blame in such a loathsome and infantile way. Aaron edit- Keep in mind that when people read the posts you've made in this thread, what they're coming way with is an image of you as a racist and bigot. You've said that blacks weren't as intelligent as Asians. alluded to the idea that whites and blacks were more sexually immoral than Asians. I'm really appalled at your comparisons. I was trying to say it nicely, but that didn't work, so now, in the spirit of compassion, I am chastising you in the hopes that it might shock some sense into you.

Hi Simple Jack, I would have to disagree and I could go into detail regarding my disagreements, but I will lay it down to one commonality between Ch'an Buddhism (and Zen) and Taoism, the identical nature of Zen and Tao. If one can distinguish one from the other, I can't see how. Aaron

Hello Vortex, Those statistics are not accurate. They've done numerous surveys and found different numbers each time, no one really knows the exact numbers. What I do know is that the more repressed a country is sexually, the more deviance from the norm there seems to be. There's a reason that Shota and Lolita hentai are a billion dollar industry in Japan. Also keep in mind that if you report being raped in many Muslim countries you are stoned for adultery. The system in many Asian countries is set up to discourage reporting the crime. If you do report being raped, then everyone will find out and you will lose a lot of face. In many countries people still believe that the victim encouraged it, either by acting provocatively or dressing in a provocative manner. Rarely are the victims left without some blame. I would urge people not to worry about numbers and comparisons, but rather about being aware of the facts and being vocal about change. Aaron edit- I was talking with a friend of mine that works with a Gang Taskforce. He went to Thailand to do a lecture. Some of the officers that he spoke to there talked to him about the sex industry there. He said that there is an entire district in Bangkok that can only be accessed by Japanese businessmen and that the majority of the prostitutes there are children (under the age of 15). Over a million Japanese visit this district each year, yet very few people actually know that it exists, because no one talks about it.

Hello Mr T, I've never read the Tao Teh Ching backwards, but I sort of feel that it can be read in any order and still retain the same message. Now that you mentioned it, I might have to look further into the idea to see if there's anything to it. If anyone else has further insight, I would also love to hear it. Aaron

Hello guys, I haven't heard about Naropa, but I could advise you of one other school that you might want to check out, The Evergreen State University in Olympia, Wa. I actually graduated from there and it has (had) some great Eastern Arts and Philosophies programs. Definitely worth looking into. I view it as one of the most enjoyable experiences of my life and learned much more than just book knowledge while I attended. Aaron

Hello FOF, I wasn't aware of that, but it does bear more examination. I do know that the basic philosophies seem to be dissimilar, and from my own understanding of Ch'an and Zen the major influence on Ch'an wasn't really Buddhism at all, but Taoism. As I had stated earlier, Buddhism never gained real popularity until Ch'an came about. It was only after it adapted the basic Chinese ideals that the Chinese people seemed to be able to accept it. There seems to be an abundant supply of information that supports this idea, one book that I've recently read that goes into great detail on this topic is The Tao of Zen, but I believe if one looks at Wikipedia they can find various other sources that seem to support this idea as well. Aaron edit- I haven't actually looked into detail into either practice, so I am only basing my commentary on literary discourse, rather than actual experience, so perhaps I have missed something along the way.

Hello MrLoony, I think the issue here shouldn't be about respect at all. One doesn't need to believe in something someone else does in order for them to be in a relationship. I have friends that are catholic, jewish, muslim, buddhist, and new agers. I don't necessarily believe in these other religions, but I am still friends with these people because I like them as individuals. My brother is an atheist. He doesn't believe in Taoism and has said that he doesn't want to talk about it. I don't talk about it with him. There's no need to, nor is there any need for him to believe in Taoism. I could care less if he or my friends respect Taoism, rather I care if they respect me. Perhaps what you should address is whether she loves and you love her. If you both do, then the issue of Taoism doesn't matter, what matters is what you feel for each other in your hearts. Aaron

Hello Mythmaker, I would say his age has no bearing on this conversation, nor do you prove your point well by doing the same thing you seem to be admonishing. I understand you mean well, but perhaps approaching it with the idea of explaining the facts, rather than placing blame would be more beneficial. Aaron

One who strives to control their heart, will find that their heart cannot be controlled. One who knows himself will find that their heart is free. It is only by understanding that the ordinary is extraordinary that one will cease to wish to rule the world and instead allow the world to rule them. Aaron