Simple_Jack

Thelerner, google is your friend (sometimes).

Aetherous, stick with what you've been taught by CNR, et al. At the end of the day: I'm just some random person posting on the internet.

Read lam-rim or better yet receive teachings on lam-rim from a khenpo, geshe, or lama.

Yes, you definitely can, since the 4 brahmaviharas can be found in the "Yoga Sutras of Patanjali". Do a search on google for "four brahmaviharas".

"Sukkha" should be spelled "sukha" which is usually translated as "bliss", "happiness", etc.

No, because the 4 noble truths, as objects of cognitions, leads to permanent sukkha (contrasted with dukkha). Whereas, the 4 brahmaviharas are virtuous states of mind, which can propel one into the rupajhanas when they are used as objects of meditation.

That's the point I was trying to address when you brought up the "Kalama Sutta": that the brahmaviharas in itself won't lead to liberation unless combined with Buddha's liberating teachings of the 4 noble truths, etc. That they were taught to a skeptical audience and non-disciples of the Buddha, without any further teachings, proves that the "Kalama Sutta" was a provisional teaching. Buddha's own disciples were taught the 37 bodhipaksha, etc., which is a complete path in itself (the same cannot be said of the 4 brahmaviharas).

Buddha never taught the 4 brahmaviharas to his disciples as a complete path in itself: he taught them in conjunction with his teachings of the 4 noble truths, etc.; ergo your "one-taste" comment is unwarranted in this context.

Alternate version of the "Four Immeasurables" in the OP http://archive.thubtenchodron.org/PrayersAndPractices/workshop_on_the_four_immeasurables.html -- May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes, May all sentient beings be free of suffering and its causes, May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss, May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment and anger.

http://fpmt.org/mandala/archives/mandala-issues-for-2005/february/study-versus-meditation-do-they-complement-or-compete-with-your-practice/ Choden Rinpoche: The recommended procedure is first to listen to teachings, then to contemplate what you have heard, and then to meditate. Therefore, at the beginning, it’s important to find a learned teacher with whom to study; then analyze with logical reasons whatever you have heard, which is what we mean by contemplation; and then focus single-pointedly on that which you have established after analysis, which in this context is what we mean by meditation. So, these three have to go in that order: hearing, contemplation, and meditation. This was said by both Shakyamuni Buddha and Buddha Maitreya. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_Wisdoms%E2%80%94An_Interview_with_H.H._Sakya_Trizin Sakya Trizen: For anyone who wishes to follow the spiritual path, the Buddhist teachings explain the importance of the Three Wisdoms. The very first thing someone entering the path and seeking the truth must be able to do is to hear and to learn. An experienced teacher begins by explaining to you the very basic Buddhist view: all compound things are impermanent, all impure things bring suffering, all phenomena are empty of inherent existence, and Nirvana is peace (see Four Seals). After hearing this, you personally examine how it corresponds to your daily life. Of course, even without listening to Buddhist teachings we can see for ourselves that everything in life is impermanent, but if someone tells you, this it helps you develop the strength of that inner understanding. This is what we call the wisdom you obtain from hearing. Next you go through the meaning of the teachings analytically and examine it very carefully in relation to your life and to the outside world. In this way you discover for yourself the truth of what your teacher said, and this enhances your inner understanding even more. This is the wisdom obtained through contemplation. On the basis of these two wisdoms, you begin to practise meditation itself, further awakening and deepening your inner experience and understanding. This is the wisdom that one obtains through meditation. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_wisdom_tools The great master Vasubandhu wrote: Observing discipline, and having heard and contemplated the teachings, One applies oneself intensively to meditation. As Chökyi Drakpa says in his commentary on the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro: Through the wisdom that comes from hearing, you are able to recognize the disturbing emotions. Then through the wisdom that comes from reflection, you are able to overcome the disturbing emotions temporarily. And finally, through the wisdom that comes through meditation you conquer completely the enemy of negative emotions, and obtain the confidence of the inexpressible wisdom of discriminating awareness [prajna]. http://thetaobums.com/topic/33273-prajna-is-3-fold/?p=512655 The Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon states: Prajñā is three-fold: the prajñā of hearing severs external reification; the prajñā of reflection severs internal reification; and the prajñā of meditation severs secret reification. Vimalamitra states: The characteristics of prajñā: The characteristic of the prajñā of hearing is a great quantity listening and understanding words without interpolation. The characteristic of reflection is investigating the words and meanings of the mind, and giving explanations. The characteristic of meditation is distancing oneself from afflictions through meditation.

"Four Solaces" aka. 4 brahmaviharas. Buddha didn't give the Kalamas any teachings beyond that such as the 4 noble truths, etc. The result of cultivating the 4 brahmaviharas, without going for refuge in the 3 Jewels and generating bodhicitta, is rebirth in the heavens of Brahma. Without the 8-fold noble path: this becomes a worldly path, not a world transcending path (the "Yoga Sutras" teach the 4 brahmaviharas too). To put it shortly, without the "view", this does not act as a cause for liberation: but for furthur attachment to samsara.

The "Kalama Sutta" provides teachings on the 4 brahmaviharas, but it doesn't give liberating teachings, because it was essentially addressed to a "non-buddhist" audience. To understand why practitioners of buddhadharma, go for refuge in the 3 Jewels (3 Roots in tantra) and generate bodhicitta, you would need to understand the Buddha's teachings of the 4 noble truths.

Patrul Rinpoche also said: "It is usual for tears to flow from ones eyes now and again because of biased good will and compassion. Even though a fool reifies this as bodhicitta, such things are never supreme bodhicitta."

Are you asking this in the context of a meditation object (i.e. 4 brahmaviharas)? I'm assuming you want to know this in the context of relative bodhicitta in Mahayana. Lam-rim from any of the 4 Tibetan sects will have all you need for this. You have to understand from the POV of the path why Mahayana practitioners go for refuge in the 3 Jewels and generate bodhicitta: "Without bodhicitta, teachings on the view and meditation, however profound they may seem will be no use at all for attaining perfect Buddhahood. Tantric practices like the generation phase, the perfection phase and so on, practiced within the context of bodhicitta lead to complete Buddhahood in one lifetime. But without bodhicitta they are no different from the methods of the tirthikas. Tirthikas also have many methods for meditating on deities, reciting mantras, and working with the channels and energies; they too behave in accordance with cause and effect. But it is solely because they do not take refuge or arouse bodhicitta that they are unable to achieve liberation from the realms of samsara." ~ Patrul Rinpoche

TI, you're reading that sentence at face value. That's not what I meant to imply.

Awareness in Buddhism, would be the samjna skandha (i.e. perception aggregate) in the 5 skandha schema, which is a mental factor that is conditioned and impermanent (i.e. momentary). Citta or "mind", would be the vijnana skandha (i.e. consciousness aggregate) in Buddhism, which means that it too is conditioned and impermanent (i.e. momentary).

This is a collection of posts, from Loppon Malcolm, explaining the epistemological advantage of Dzogchen, when revealing the false mind-matter dichotomy. Though this comparison is made between the lower yanas of Buddhism: it can be concluded, without doubt, that this mind-body dichotomy is a prominent feature among Eastern and Western philosophical traditions: Now we are entering the realm of Ati yoga, where we discover that actually the fundamental state of our being is our physical body - our existence as body ~ Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=200 ...only in Dzogchen teachings is the substance dualism that is a prime feature of Buddhist thought from abhidharma right up the the lower tantras truly overcome in an explicit fashion. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=220 The manner in which the other schools resolved this is through recourse to a species of mentalism i.e. the subtle inner madhyamaka, if you will... No, seriously -- for example, Khyentse Wangchuk declares that there is no difference between mind and matter because everything is established as mind. This is perfectly acceptable thing to say in a Lamdre context. I have seen the same statement [everything is established as mind] coming from Gelugpas when they explain how one is to practice Vajrayāna, as opposed to how the Gelug sutra view is formed and asserted. This is also how the Kagyus phrase things. This is not how Dzogchen deals with the issue at all. Please bear in mind that not everything said by Nyingmapas necessarily reflects the view of Dzogchen. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8380&start=0 If you elevate everything to the ultimate level, even "...matter is unconditioned without anything missing", as it says in the Yum Chenmo, the sutra of Perfect Wisdom in 100,000 lines. But the Buddhist scholastics from Sarvastivada up to Dharmakirti have always maintained a hard division between mind and matter, between nāma on the one hand and rūpa on the other. For example, in the account of the twelve links in the Vibhanga, the Pali Abhidharma compendium, when discussing the twelve nidanas, it even leaves off the rūpa in the nidana of nāmarūpa, running ignorance, formations, consciousness, name, etc. The Yogacara school attempts to supercede this dualism through asserting that everything is fundamentally a projection of the mind -- in fact the 15th century Lamdre Master Khyentse Wangchuk states, there is no dualism of mind and matter because everything is mind. As we know, Madhyamaka adopts the conventional truth either according to the Sautrantika system, or the Yogacara system. But since it's own perspective is grounded in the Prajñāpāramitasūtras, it regards distinctions such as mind and matter to be merely conventional designations that do not have any real basis apart from imputation. But we can see that this division is well preserved in Buddhist tantric literature (as well as Hindu tantric literature) when we find for example that the mind is described as a rider of a horse, vāyu. This is because both forms of tantra, Buddhist as well as Hindu, are concerned with the mechanics of the body for understanding how to gain realization through our embodiment through the practice of various kinds of yoga. Granted, this is sometimes is found in Dzogchen literature as well. But when we examine that actual system of Dzogchen according to the ancient Dzogchen tantras, we find that in fact even consciousness itself is generated phsyiologically in the body by a vāyu. I have yet to find in an original Dzogchen tantra the common Buddhist term khams drug, sadadhātu i.e. earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness. I may yet find it, but at least the Valby KWIC tool does not in fact list it in the 83 or so important Dzogchen tantras that he converted into searchable text files. It also does not list every instance of thod rgal in the Dzogchen tantras as well so its look up routines are not completely infallible. But there are hundreds of references to the five elements ('byung lnga, pañcabhutani). I have been also examining the Mdzod phug lately, Bon "Abhidharma" and cosmology, is largely freed from the constraints of Buddhist conservatism, has very interesting things to say about the five elements and so on, and when is a text clearly influenced by Dzogchen. A kind of Dzogchen Abhidharma. One of the reasons why I started looking into this text is that the Rigpa Rangshar tantra contains a very brief mention of a primordial egg cosmology which accounts for the formation of the world, similar to the Vedas and Bon: Now, to demonstrate the ignorance of the object of delusion: delusion is deluded by the forgoing. The field is prior to the formation of the world; a so called “wish-fulfilling tree” grows, a tree growing from the blessing of the youthful vase body of the buddha, born from warmth and moisture which arose from an egg. The Sahāloka formed from the mind disturbing the so-called self-originated wisdom in that. That is called the ignorance of the field of delusion. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&hilit=delusion&start=60 A tantra called Uprooting Delusion from the dgongs pa zang thal cycle provides the following description: The way sentient beings arise: that nameless general ground, is non-conceptual and not established at all, invisible and unclear, from which when the bifurcation occurs, since vāyu, vidyā, and space separate, [3/b] the intrinsic sound of the elements produces vibration. From the inside of the darkness of the clear part of appearances, as soon as a storm of fire emerges, scattering everywhere, Vidyā, like the mind of a lunatic, is dazed and reeling. Since vidyā lacks confidence in its own appearances, it panics at sound, is frightened of rays, and through awareness not taking its own place, the ignorance that arises simultaneously with it is called “the causal ignorance. Because of a lack of mindful attention, self and other are grasped as a duality, and both outer and inner dependent origination occur. The whole universe arises through awareness looking externally. All sentient being arise through awareness looking internally. Through looking there, fearful appearances arise, through looking here, ‘self’ arises. Many mistakes arise from the single mistake about the appearances of here and there. Because of being mistaken about a self, there is a mistake about other, attachment to self, aversion to other. From the seed of attachment and aversion, the whole outer universe and inhabitants are mistakes. Because one is held as two, [4/a] that is called the delusion of dualistic grasping. Since one imputed and mistook outer and inner, that is called “the imputing ignorance”. Because of familiarity of subject and object of that, from the thick buildup of traces, there was entrance into the state of samsara. That is how the six migrations occurred.” http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&hilit=delusion&start=80 ...the String of Pearls states: Having been gripped by the apprehender and apprehended in the aggregates, elements and gateways, one remains in samsara itself for a long while, within the belly of the three realms one is placed in the prison of name and matter, [352] bound by the chains of ignorance, covered with dense black darkness of samsara, attached to the spicy taste of passion, one is bound by the noose of confusion, tormented by the hot fire of hatred, one’s head is covered by pride, the gates of jealously are locked, surrounded by the armies of resentment and so on, tied about the neck with the noose of apprehender and apprehended, stuck in the swamp of past traces, one’s hands are shackled with ripened karma, the mother of karma is joined with her child, one following the other just like a water wheel, alternating between good and bad bodies, born in different forms, and through heightening one’s self-grasping one sinks to the bottom of the ocean of suffering, one’s heart is grabbed by the goad of the evil destinies, one binds oneself with the enemy, afflictions. Fire appears as water to hell beings, as hunger and thirst to hungry ghosts, as fog to animals. the aggregates, gateways and elements appears as the five elements to humans, those are also pleasurable, painful and neutral, as weapons and armor to asuras, and as desirable things to gods. For example, just like a rapidly spinning fire wheel one abides continuously in samsara for a long while. Such various appearances are like seeing a snake in a rope since what isn’t there is held to be there, both the outer and inner container and contents form, and if that is investigated, it is a rope, i.e. the container and contents are already empty the ultimate with the form of the relative." The mistake then is seeing as there what isn't there, which is why this tantra, among others uses the rope/snake example. What this tantra is stating is that deluded appearances we see that are predicated in the basis do not exist in the basis and are not appearances of the basis, but rather misapprehensions of the appearance of the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&p=89967&hilit=delusion#p89967 Sentient beings are deluded about the display of the basis. When they cease to be so deluded, they are buddhas. The basis never displays as anything other than the five lights. Further, The Luminous Space states: That mind is produced out of the dualistic grasping to the six objects of the manifestation of wisdom. How can that [mind] be produced? Since [the mind] is produced from that ignorance that does not recognize the intrinsic manifestation of wisdom [the mind] is produced. Sentient beings, rocks and trees are assembled by delusion about the basis. But the basis only displays one way. It does not display as both samsara and nirvana. Since that critical point of luminous empty vidyā was not recognized, grasping onto that produced the five elements, and the causal thigle [was produced] from the refined part of those. The body was produced from that [refined part] and energy [rtsal] of wisdom produces the five sense gates in that [body]. Within those [sense gates] the five wisdoms are produced. The five [sense gates] grasping onto those [five wisdoms produce] the five afflictions. After first being created by the energy of wisdom; in the middle, it was not recognized that the body of the refined part of the assembled elements actually is the five wisdoms, since this was not realized, through intellectual views, the non-sentient and sentient both appear, but don’t believe it. Here, it is actually five wisdoms to begin with; in the middle, when the body is formed from assembly of the elements through ignorance grasping onto those [five wisdoms] also, it is actually the five wisdoms. The five aggregates, sense organs, and afflictions also are actually the five wisdoms. In the end, since one transcends accepting, rejecting, proofs, and negations since those are realized to not be real. As such, the sign of non-duality is [the body] disappearing into wisdom without any effluents because the critical point of the non-duality or sameness of the non-sentient and the sentient was understood according to the Guru’s intimate instruction. The basis only is the five wisdoms and only displays as the five wisdoms -- the rest is delusion. Ignorance [avidyā] is not a display of the basis, it is delusion about the display of the basis. Knowledge is not a display of the basis, it is the absence of delusion about the display of the basis. One basis, two paths, two results. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1203&start=140 According to the sNying thig tradition, at the time of the result the division between animate and inanimate vanishes. The distinction vanishes. The basic view of man ngag sde is that the light, the visible expression of wisdom, is reified into the five elements. When that reification is dissolved, also the perception of a difference between the animate and inanimate dissolves, since the five elements pervade all phenomena including mind/consciousness. Actually, the view of man ngag sde is that even consciousness itself is a product of the five elements. But this is not a problem since the actual nature of the five elements is the five wisdoms. Yes, this is how Dzogchen can give a physicalist account of consciousness while avoiding the charge of being physicalists, i.e., because the appearance of the sentient and the non-sentient arises out of the a misperception of the five lights of the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8536&start=40 ...Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions. Wisdom has no origin, it formed naturally. Hence the metaphor of the peacock feather. The elements form from the non-recognition of of the five lights of connected with the five wisdoms. The Khandro Nyinthig states: Since that mind arose as automatic manifestation of six mental apprehenders, the five elements are produced. Since those are not recognized as the five wisdoms, the five elements assemble in dependence upon grasping those [five wisdoms]. Since those assemble, the body forms through the action of one [element] assisting the other. With that forms the apprehended and the apprehender. And: As such, that basis, the natural reality of things, the great intrinsic energy of wisdom, the dharmakāya, was not recognized, and because of the stains of grasping to it, the elements assemble; the body forms from them, and based on that [body], one wanders in samsara until one ages and dies. And: Since the five energies of wisdom are unceasing, the body forms from the five elements. Since two kāyas are integrated with the relative elements, that previous understanding of the intrinsic energy of wisdom is totally forgotten. The ultimate four elements is the dharmakāya, the relative four elements is the sambogakāya. Nirmanakāya is the lack of sameness and difference of the two kāyas. And: To sum it all up, ignorant attachment to dualistic appearances assembles the energy of wisdom into the elements, and forms the body in actuality. And: Energy is produced unceasingly from that wisdom. Since that energy was not recognized, that apparent and natureless radiant luminosity of wisdom arose as the empty luminosity of the five lights. [430] Within that, since this thinker of thoughts grasps the unceasing energy of wisdom, and since that five colored energy is assembled as the elements, therefore, the body, flesh, blood, warmth, breath, channels and so on are formed from that energy of wisdom. For as long as the mind and the body do not separate, the channels, vāyus, bindus, wisdoms and so on are inseparable. Since that is not recognized as such and the one is grasped as many, like the nameless becoming named, since the five wisdoms, the five afflictions, and so on are divisions in one thing, also those wishing for Buddhahood have aggregates, without contacting the meaning of this even slightly. With this everything is recognized as coming from the energy of wisdom. Since inseparability is recognized, therefore the defiled also comes from the energy of wisdom. Also that self-liberated from the mind, and as the defiled does not appear, Buddhahood is attained in the expanse of wisdom. Therefore, it is inseparable. Others hold them as different, and respond with practice. And: ... after the body formed because the energy of initial vidyā was not recognized as wisdom, there is delusion because of the grasping of materiality, and wandering in samsara. And: The relative material bindu is the intrinsic radiance of those five wisdoms of the originally pure dharmadhātu externally manifesting as five lights, after which, the elements are produced upon the mere traces of grasping of the mind. Further, the natural reality of that mind (that established in anyway) is space. Whether that is like this or not, the energy of that vivid luminosity arising as the diversity, that is called “vāyu”, it is called “mind”. Though luminosity is called mind, because of movement, it is called “vāyu”. When examined, it is not established in anyway. Also luminosity is not established, also movement is not established, also inseparability is not established. Since that is not recognized, since that energy that grasps so called “vāyu” produces heat, there is fire. For example, just as when sweat and heat is produced when a person does hard work, [fire] is produced from that grasping onto heat. When the heat of fire touches the ground, water is produced in the form of vapor. Since grasping onto that energy of wisdom arose, the outer five elements are produced, caused one by one. The five elements form matter. Since grasping onto that arose, the five elements assemble, and the body forms through the condition of the five refined parts of those [elements], one by one. If it is asked why, now then to begin with, the energy of wisdom is vāyu, from that is heat; from that, earth; from that, water: since each assists another, the body develops more i.e. the body actually forms out of the refined part of the five elements. That [body] is pervaded by the refined part of the five elements. The refined parts and that energy of wisdom are given the name “channels, vāyus, and bindu”. The energy of wisdom is the five elements. Since wisdom is present in them, there are five wisdoms. That is given the name material bindu. Wisdom is inseparably present within that material bindu. And: Further, to begin with, the body is formed by ignorance of the wisdom of basis. The nature of wisdom in that body is the refined part of the five elements, present in the material bindu as the play of the kāyas and wisdoms. Since their luminous radiance arose as light, it is given the name “three wisdoms”. And: Though the body is formed form ignorance of the basis, as soon as that is recognized, it is not beyond wisdom in the beginning, the end and in the middle. Etc. this text just goes on and on in the same vein. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=240 While there are of course Dzogchen texts that describe mind and body as separate, in general, the innermost secret cycle holds that the perception that there is a difference between the animate and inanimate is a mistaken one. In the state of ultimate liberation [i.e. samyaksambuddhahood], the distinction between animate and inanimate disappears because it is not true. Further, like other Vajrayāna traditions, Dzogchen provides a physical account for the process of rebirth for example in the Vajramala Tantra: it is proposed that the alayavijñāna, which is inseparable with the mahāprāṇavāyu, is responsible for transmigration; for the appropriation of a new series of aggregates. But Dzogchen goes a step further and explicitly identifies consciousness as the operation of a vāyu in the body. Vāyus of course are the function of the refined element of air inside the human body. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=280 - The point is that in Dzogchen teachings mind and matter are not treated as different substances as they are in other Buddhist systems. They are equally treated as producers of the five elements. The way in which Dzogchen avoids the charge of being "physicalist" is that the five elements themselves arise from misperception of the nature of the basis [more or less emptiness endowed with light], without needing the intermediate step of proposing everything is an appearance of mind and so on. And of course the awareness that misperceives the basis arises out of a vāyu that stirs in the basis, and so on. It gets a little complex.... ...basically the point being underscored is that matter and intelligence are non-dual. For example, it is a special tenet of Dzogchen that even the formless realms are material, i.e., that basically, wherever there is matter, there is consciousness, wherever there is consciousness, there is matter. You can either say that matter is intrinsically conscious or that consciousness is intrinsically embodied. Either way it amounts to the same thing. "Sentient" and "non-sentient" are merely conventional designations based on appearances generated by ignorance.... No, not photons, not physical light in the western scientific sense of the term. Precisely, the basis is ye shes. Empty luminous energetic ye shes which appears to a neutral awareness (which itself rises out of the basis when a vāyu in the basis stirs). http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6842&start=0 The basis is called the basis because it has not been realized. At present the basis is not latent, like it is between eons. At present the basis is in a state of manifestation as Buddhas and sentient beings. When the basis is latent, we term it "the time of the basis" or "the bardo of samsara and nirvana". After the basis manifests we term this phase "samsara and nirvana turn their backs to one another". When we fully realize the path of dzogchen, it is called "the universe manifests as the basis": in other words, our total experience will be the three wisdoms subsumed under the name, great original purity. The basis itself has not changed in anyway during these three time periods. When the latent awareness (shes pa bag la nyal] of the basis recognizes the basis as its own display, it becomes prajñā [shes rab] and realizes buddhahood as Samantabhadra. When the latent awareness of the basis does not recognize itself, under the power of the imputing ignorance that imputs appearances as other and that awarness as a self, it becomes consciousness [rnam par shes pa]. The 'latent awareness of the basis' is an aggregate name for all those beings who have not acheived total buddhahood in the previous eon, but acheived a so called "buddhahood that reverts to the cause", [as I have explained now several times within the last few weeks] in the same way that we refer to the aggregated consciousnesses of all sentient beings as the vijñānadhātu, along with dhātus of earth, water, air, fire and space, the so called sadadhātu, the six dhātus. It is part of the rtsal of the basis.... The basis is not one thing, it is not many. It is the dharmadhātu... ...This is basically how it is -- but since there is no individuating consciousnesses driven by affliction, the awareness latent in the basis is not discussed in plural terms, that is until there are individuating consciousnesses when samasara and nirvana "turn their back to each other". Oh, this comes about because of traces of action and ignorance. Nothing in the basis changes, of course, what happens is that there is sort of cosmic pulsation of ignorance and its subsidance which results in the appearance and disappearance of samsara and nirvana; and as we know, traces can accumulate in wisdom. You have to understand that all of this explanation of cosmic cycles is really intended to be brought down to the level of the individual's life cycle in terms of the four bardos: The bardo of death == destruction of the universe up to the two higher form realms The bardo of dharmatā == the arising of the sound, light and rays of the basis The bardo of becoming == non-recognition of the basis The natural bardo of this life == the appearance of samsara and nirvana It is an explanation for practice. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=300 - Correct, the aspect of the basis called compassion is the energy of the display of the universe and all its beings.... Real "pure" view means seeing universe and beings arising as the basis. The "pure" view in Vajrayāna is merely a conceptual construction which itself needs to be remedied with the completion stage. Dzogchen skips the two stages.... There are two bases, the original general basis and the basis of the person. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=320 A mind or an awareness [shes pa] has a "choice" recognition or non-recognition. The recognizing mind is called vidyā or prajñā. The non-recognizing mind is called avidyā. There are two kinds of Buddhahood in Dzogchen, abhisambodhi, which has a non-abiding nirvana; samyaksambodhi which enters nirvana without remainder. Omniscience arises because the capacity for omniscience is present in the form of potential in the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8536&start=20 When one has eliminated the traces of affliction and action in one's own five elements, one's body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light". http://http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15183&start=20 The theory of the body of light is predicted on the fundamental state of reality being something called wisdom, which has five lights, which are reified as physical matter. Upon completion of the path, one sees this matter in its real nature once again and the elements of the body "revert" to their original nature as wisdom (i.e. through the process of thogal one eradicates all the afflictive obscurations which prevent one from seeing things just as they are (yathabhutaṃ)); Body of light is a realization.... It's only necessary, to understand the difference between the use of 'alaya' in Mahamudra and Dzogchen, in this way: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=9082&start=40 In Mahāmudra and Lamdre, ālaya refers to the nature of the mind i.e. inseperable clarity and emptiness [of one's mind]. In Dzogchen ālaya refers to ignorance... If anyone's interested in understanding tathagatagarbha/alayavijnana according to sutrayana and vajrayana here's some links in no particular order: http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=688 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php? f=102&t=6823&p=84637&hilit=alayavijnana%3Bchandrakirti#p84637 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&start=120 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4056 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5219 http://www.scribd.com/doc/99264798/A-Comparison-of-%C4%80laya-Vijn%C4%81na-in-Yog%C4%81c%C4%81ra-and-Dzogchen - comparison of alayavijnana in Yogacara and Dzogchen

http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=13303#p13303 ...The nature of the five elements is wisdom. It is like the front and back of one's hand. You only have one hand, but it appears differently based on perceiving its front or its back. As Magnus implies, it is when we rectify our perception of the elements that they then appear as wisdom. Also the cause of ignorance is the wisdom of the basis itself. So vidyā becomes avidyā, lights become elements, and so forth simply due to our ingrained traces of ignorance built up over countless lifetimes. In order to reveal the wisdom light that is the empty substance of the universe and living beings, we have to purify our perception of our personal elements. This is done through togal or klong sde practice. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=13305#p13305 Ignorance is deeply embedded in our experience. The Dzogchen teachings exist to release us from being bound by that ignorance. The nature of that ignorance and the nature of vidyā have the same basis, which is why self-liberation is possible. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=13346#p13346 The elements are wisdom, they simply are not recognized as such. There is a Bon logic text, very nice, that proves appearances are dharmakāya. The objection is raised, if appearances are dharmakāya why isn't everyone liberated instantly? The answer is that those who recognize appearances as dharmakāya are liberated instantly since instant liberation is as desiderata. Those who are not liberated instantly are those who have not recognized appearances as dharmakāya. Upon what does recognition of appearances as dharmakāya depend? Introduction. Without having been introduced to appearances as dharmakāya, one will not recognize appearances as dharmakāya, just as if one has been sent into a crowd to find a person one has not met, even when one sees them face to face they are not recognized. So the elements are wisdom. Vidyā and avidyā is the deciding factor in recognition. That recognition depends on an introduction, just as our recognition of a face in the crowd depends upon whether we have been introduced to that face or not. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=10349#p10349 Vimalamitra writes: The nature of the mind is not free from traces, so it is called “mind”. That knowledge of the dharmakāya as empty is called “vidyā". That also gives rise to recognition of great clear emptiness. Remaining in that stage is called “wisdom”. Remaining without concepts, free from the errors of lethargy, agitation and so on, is called “dharmakāya”."Thus, the energy of compassion moves from self-originated wisdom, that cognition arisen towards an object is called 'play arising from energy'. That [cognition] is not self-originated wisdom because of the difference between the existence and non-existence of the object." - Longchenpa | chos dbyings mdzod "Self-arisen wisdom [rang byung ye shes] is the primordial nature of vidyā [rig pa]; wisdom that realizes an object, because it arises from that object, is not self-arisen." - kun byed rgyal po http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=10716#p10716 The Luminous Space states: "That mind is produced out of the dualistic grasping to the six objects of the manifestation of wisdom. How can that [mind] be produced? Since [the mind] is produced from that ignorance that does not recognize the intrinsic manifestation of wisdom [the mind] is produced." From the Khandro Nyinthig [Per Malcolm]: "In brief, those delusions also are not delusion that exist in the cause and basis, but as one does not understand the actual state of the basis one is stubbornly deluded about one’s appearances. For example when grasping to a seeming appearance that does not exist in the material, a rope appears to be a snake. Like a conch shell appearing yellow, the actual state of the basis has not been understood, and there is fixated delusion about one’s appearances." From the Tantra Summarizing The Definitive Meaning [nges don bsdus pa'i rgyud]: "Listen then, to this quintessential summation. In the very heart of naturally occurring dharmakāya, the eight avenues of consciousness are absent, so there is freedom from ordinary mind. So long as ordinary mind fixates on things in all their variety, there is what we call 'my mind.' Ordinary mind is the root of flaws, and so one does not awaken to buddhahood through ordinary mind. Ordinary mind is the root of samsara. Given that sense objects manifest in all their variety, ordinary mind fixates on concepts in all their variety. Therefore, ordinary mind is the cause of samsara." From the Uprooting Delusion Tantra from the dgongs pa zang thal cycle [Per Malcolm]: "Because of a lack of mindful attention, self and other are grasped as a duality, and both outer and inner dependent origination occur. The whole universe arises through awareness looking externally. All sentient being arise through awareness looking internally. Through looking there, fearful appearances arise, through looking here, ‘self’ arises. Many mistakes arise from the single mistake about the appearances of here and there. Because of being mistaken about a self, there is a mistake about other, attachment to self, aversion to other. From the seed of attachment and aversion, the whole outer universe and inhabitants are mistakes. Because one is held as two, that is called the delusion of dualistic grasping. Since one imputed and mistook outer and inner, that is called 'the imputing ignorance'. Because of familiarity of subject and object of that, from the thick buildup of traces, there was entrance into the state of samsara. That is how the six migrations occurred.” From the String Of Pearls Tantra [Per Malcolm]: "...just like a rapidly spinning fire wheel one abides continuously in samsara for a long while. Such various appearances are like seeing a snake in a rope since what isn’t there is held to be there, both the outer and inner container and contents form, and if that is investigated, it is a rope, i.e. the container and contents are already empty the ultimate with the form of the relative." http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=23504#p23504 ...the Union of the Sun and Moon Tantra, from which the song of the vajra is taken also says: The teacher replied: “E ma ho! Great Nonconceptual Muni you should listen! There are six afflictions: ignorance [avidyā] grasps the aspect of the conceptual delusion about the basis. Confusion is delusion from the aspect of prajñā. Hatred is delusion from the aspect of the stage of generation. [15/b] Pride is delusion from the aspect of view. Desire is delusion from the aspect of appearance. Jealousy is delusion from the aspect of nonconceptuality. Those afflictions are unfathomable, minds that grasp thoughts, intellects that grasp memories, concepts that becomes the basis for all connecting traces and doubts, the aspect of grasping to objects and things, and so on. Those who do not understand the meaning are those common persons up to anuyoga. Those of incorrect understanding are the tirthikas i.e. all views grasping to extremes and grasping to a self. In brief, there are views grasping mental analysis, views grasping permanence and annihilation and views grasping at perception. Those of partial understanding are the śravakas, pratyekabuddhas and so on, i.e., the nine yānas.” And: There, those who are unable to guide their awareness or previously lacked the instructions of the Guru are alarmed, fearful, miserable, terrified and think to escape those appearances and so on and accept addiction to samsara. Also there are twenty-capacities for delusion. And: The place entered by all sentient beingswho do not possess this instruction is called “the bardo of existence.” The doorway to the path of the places of samsara, for example, is turning like a water wheel. Having separated from the body of ordinary flesh and blood, one has an illusory mental body; which has two names since it incorporeal. The appearances of the consciousness of the past cease, the appearances of the future have not arisen, the loka has not been determined, whatever subsides, whatever appears, at that time is a bardo because it lasts for an instant. One apprehends the shape of whatever birth one will have later, and having apprehended the shape that arises later, it becomes an appearance of the individual six lokas. The outer universe and inhabitants of the desire realm are known and clear to oneself. Also the universe and inhabitants of ordinary birth manifest at that time. The desired universe and inhabitants appear clearly. Since the limbs of the apparitional sense organs are fully complete, one is not impeded by anything. One enters mountains and cliffs without impediments. The lifespan from other karma is seven days. Forty nine days is the total lifespan. The color of devas and humans is white. The color of asuras and animals is yellow. The light of pretas is smokey. That of the hells is like burnt stumps or also like waving black wool. Alternately, the animals [color[ is like boiled blood. The of asuras is like falling sleet. At that time, the way they face is as follows: devas and humans face up, animals and asuras slant, pretas and hell beings face down. These are from the perspective of when first born. These are the signs of accumulation and non-accumulation of actions of the bardo of existence: There are no ripened traces. From the perspective of the bardo, the traces of the corresponding cause do accumulate here. And: Does the bardo appear to those of ordinary capacity who have seen this? Or does it not appear? The teacher said “It appears, but having exhausted the traces of grasping to the ordinary one finds solace in the natural nirmanakāya realms and there one attains buddha without the bardo. The sentient beings who have not seen this, after they enter the door of the womb from the cause of the male and the condition of the female there is mer mer po, nur nur po, ltar ltar po, gor gor po, hardening and like a fish, like a tortoise, like a tadpole, in that way the days are seven weeks. Their bodies develop from the umbilicus. At nine months, in the same way, the face turns, the completed body is expelled from the mother’s womb. As such, their forms are different, cycling in samsara. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?p=23807#p23807 Since there is nothing to see there, don’t look there. The view that does not go beyond the object of the view is naturally non-existent. One should remain in the state that doesn’t really exist. - Unwritten Tantra http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/shentong-yogacara-and-dzogchen.html?m=1 "Since neither of those exist [i.e. samsara or nirvana], one understands that the originally pure vidyā [rig pa] which apprehends the basis and the vidyā of insight, the chains, do not exist other than being mere designations..." ...Since the essence of vidyā does not exist, the vidyā of the perduring basis (the source of both energy [rtsal] and qualities, and also the apprehender of characteristics) does not exist. Since the wisdom appearances of people's own vidyā that are seen in personal experience are not established as entities of any kind, it is the appearance of the exhaustion of dharmatā.' Further, Vimalamitra states in The Lamp Summarizing Emptiness: 'Now then, the emptiness of dharmatā: natural dharmatā is the emptiness of the non-existence of a primal substance. Thus, all appearances were never established according to the eight examples of illusion. When appearances spread, that basis of the emptiness of dharmatā does not shift whatsoever, never transcending the emptiness of dharmatā. Furthermore: Everything arose from non-arising; even arising itself never arose. Dharmatā in and of itself is empty without a basis, present at all times as the single nature of the great emptiness of the basis, path, and result. Furthermore, primordial emptiness is empty without beginning. [180] Empty things are empty by nature. Since the emptiness of dharmatā is present without being contrived and without being transformed in the basis, yogins are also liberated by remaining naturally without contrivance and without transformations.' And: 'That dharmatā emptiness dwells in a fortress and is captured in a fortress: the fortress (that is like a circle of spears in the sky) encircles (without a beginning or an end) dharmatā, i.e., existence is dharmatā, non-existence is dharmatā, both are dharmatā and neither are dharmatā. As such, [dharmatā] is surrounded by the names “clear and unclear”, “empty and not-empty”, “existence and non-existence”, “permanence and annihilation”, and so on. That lack of finding evidence itself is dharmatā. Further, in reality nothing exists apart from dharmatā. That being the case, that emptiness (as a mere representation, baseless, and non-referential, being non-existent like a pretense) is understood with scripture, accepted by reasoning, proven by argument, and captured in a fortress. Be confident that dharmatā is the unmistaken true emptiness.' ~ translated by Loppon Namdrol

Since you quoted Kalu Rinpoche (http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/mahamud/mahamud.html) on Mahamudra: I think it's appropriate to mention that the Gelugpas consider a precise conceptual understanding of 2-fold emptiness as very important to its realization (since they consider the view of sutra and tantra as the same, but differing only in method). That's because emptiness can be apprehended as the object of a mental consciousness, due to emptiness existing conventionally as the characteristic of an object, because it's a mere label of mind, even though emptiness is an object's ultimate nature; it can be ascertained via logic and analysis according to how Tsongkhapa delineates conventional and ultimate levels of truth. Lama Zopa explains that shamatha is not enough to uproot delusion: http://fpmt.org/tag/lam-rim/page/2/ "...Not just shiné alone, because we have achieved shiné numberless times in the past, but due to our lack of renunciation, bodhichitta and emptiness, we are still in samsara. Shiné without lam-rim is what the Hindus achieve. We have achieved this numberless times and been born in the form and formless realms numberless times, but because of not having renunciation of “the tip of samsara,” [i.e. samadhi of neither perception nor non-perception] the last one, when that karma finished, we were again reborn in the lower realms, desire realms and so forth. This is the reality. Therefore we need to actualize shiné on the basis of lam-rim and doing so will make it easier to gain sutra and tantra realizations, because once shiné is achieved it is very easy to achieve all the other realizations."

A person relies on inference, in this case hearing, reflecting, and meditating on the Buddha's teachings, until the moment that insight of 2-fold emptiness on the path of seeing dawns. The assertion that the Buddha didn't want his followers to conceptually understand the factors for its arising is absurd and a form of nihilism by way of denying conditioned arising (i.e. cause and effect). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#s1 The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.[2] Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." Buddha's teachings in the Prajnapramita Sutras and Nagurjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika were really targeting the naive realism (Buddhist definition) of ordinary people, but it can be extended to people trained in Buddhist and non-Buddhist tenet systems. The habit of imputing and grasping to identity, in persons and phenomena, is regarded as instinctive and occurs in the absence of the arising of conceptual thoughts (such as in shamatha, deep sleep, etc.) as explained here: http://fpmt.org/mandala/archives/mandala-for-2013/october/the-easy-path/ “Object of negation” refers to the way you experience the self: as though it exists from its own side, without depending on the mind and body, the five psychophyscial aggregates. It is, in other words, an instinctive sense that the self exists from its own side. Such a self does not exist at all. "Lama Tsongkhapa explains in his Concise Instructions how this “self” that is the object of negation arises and appears experientially. It is not something that arises due to analysis. It spontaneously appears as though it exists from its own side, without having to depend on its basis of imputation – the five aggregates. Lama Tsongkhapa says that experientially, this self appears solidly. He uses the analogy of walking in pitch darkness, reaching out your hand, and suddenly touching a pillar. At such a moment, the pillar appears very solid to you. The pillar doesn’t seem at all to depend on anything – on having been constructed, on its parts, or on the label “pillar.” The experience of the self that is the object of negation is similar. Lama Tsongkhapa also says that that self appears like a lingering thought, always there in the back of your mind. This is likened to how when you touch a pillar in the dark, the pillar seems to you to have always been in that spot, primordially present. And, he says that that self also appears vividly to you. Again this can be likened to the experience of suddenly coming upon a pillar in the dark and how that pillar appears to your mind....Shar Kalden Gyatso, a mahasiddha of the Gelug tradition sometimes called “a second Milarepa” due to his accomplishment of siddhis, describes in detail how the object of negation appears. He begins with an analogy, like Lama Tsongkhapa’s, of reaching out in the pitch darkness and touching a table. When you lay your hand on the table, you instinctually think and feel that the table exists from its own side and always has. It seems like you’re touching something that’s always been there, primordially. Although the existence of the table depends on many factors such as its component parts and your own imputation of “table” once you laid your hand on it, it ordinarily would never occur to you when you touch a table in the dark that it doesn’t exist from its own side. You never think at such a moment that it only arises in dependence on many factors including its component parts and your own labeling! You instinctively think that it existed prior to your touching it, that it exists from its own side, and that it doesn’t depend on its parts or your labeling. This is how you experience the object of negation. You instinctively think that the self existed in your mental and physical aggregates prior to your labeling it. You think it exists from its own side, and it doesn’t occur to you that it’s merely labeled by yourself." ... One of the main bodhisattva vows, involves meditating on the Buddha's teachings of emptiness, in order to awaken for the benefit of all beings, which stems from an acknowledgement of this instinctive habit. Ratnakarashanti, one of the 84 mahasiddhas, said: A lack of faith is the chief of enemies; an excess of faith is an occasion for great delay. That is because the omniscience [of a Buddha] is understood through correct cognition (pramana); through devotion, omniscience will not come about. It's because of this reason that Mahayana practitioners go for refuge in the 3 Jewels, generate bodhicitta, gather the two accumulations of merit and wisdom, and dedicate the merit.

Are you familiar with the bliss, clarity, non-thought schema? Have you tried looking at experiences during shamatha in terms of this?

Cool. I don't think anyone said that it wasn't a cross cultural phenomenon.

He is also trained in Samkhya, the 8-limbed system of yoga (i.e. Yoga Sutras of Patanjali), and Ayurveda, so it's reasonable to say that he might know something about nadis, prana, etc. "Pressure between the eyes" doesn't necessarily indicate anything significant. Alternatively, pressure between the eyebrows could be the opening of the conception channel/ren mai or specifically the "tian mu" and "yin tang" acupoints according to the Chinese system (not saying it is just throwing that out there). Kundalini and chandali (aka. tummo) are synonymous in the Upanishads. Swaha and svaha (Skt.) are the other way around. It's an adaptation of Sanskrit words to Tibetan phonetics and It's the same when rendering Sanskrit into Chinese, Japanese, etc. Vajrayana is Buddhism, as it existed in India approximately through the 7th and 13th centuries, before its decline and eventual disappearance. AFAIK, they use ghee in making tor***: I know because I've seen it with my own eyes when they were making them. P.S. I'm not a scholar: just some person posting on the internet who's learned some stuff through exposure to sadhanas, etc.

Though an Indian trumpet flower has wilted, it is unrivaled by other common flowers, Though one of my followers has broken his discipline he is unrivaled by common tīrthikas. — Daśacakrakṣitigarbha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra ye dharmā hetu prabhavā hetun, teṣāṃ tathāgato hyavadat, teṣāṃ ca yo nirodha, evaṃ vādī mahāśramaṇa All phenomena arise from causes; Those causes have been taught by the Tathagata, And their cessation too has been proclaimed by the Great Shramana. ~ Elder Ashvajit Inconceivable tens of billions of eons ago which cannot be measured, I attained supreme awakening, and I have also been explaining the Dharma... I have demonstrated nirvana, describing the method in order to tame sentient beings, but at that time I never passed into nirvana, but have been teaching Dharma here. ~ Shakyamuni Buddha, Lotus Sutra

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=55972#p55972 Third vision = path of seeing, not the eighth bhumi. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=56050#p56050 To put it another way, when a person ceases to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the direct perception of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness" remains an intellectual sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but conceptual nevertheless. The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about one's state as a working basis for practice, does not require realization of emptiness as a prerequiste, and can't -- since if it did, no one could practice Dzogchen. ' In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify phenomena, for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is the principal reason in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on the basis through tregchö, rather the path, tögal. If you are a first stage bodhisattva and so on, then the four visions in Dzogchen will be very, very rapid. However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through practicing tregchö. Of this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended. ~Loppon Namdrol