Simple_Jack

Translations by Ven. Indrajala http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2566 The characteristic of totality is one of six characteristics (in Chinese known as liu xiang 六相). They are as follows: ①総相 - Totality ②別相- Partiality ③同相- Similarity ④異相- Difference ⑤成相 - Integration ⑥壊相 - Disintegration There are a lot of specific terms and ideas that Huayan thinkers crafted and applied to their practice. The big one is the relationship between principle li/理 and phenomenon shi/事. The former being the truth or ultimate and the later being the conventional reality of "things". True and false are always dependent on each other and one can never speak of one without the other. To put it into modern day terms, the Huayan thinkers stressed that everything is exists in a relative sense. Unlike the methods of Nagarjuna which stressed that things are ultimately unarisen, the Huayan line of reasoning didn't generally take the analysis that far. They were content with seeing the relative mode of existence of things, which is to say things being infinitely interconnected and relative to one another on an inconceivable scale, as sufficient for their purposes. Quoting Zongmi: 《註華嚴法界觀門》卷1：「除事法界也。事不獨立故。法界宗中無孤單法故。若獨觀之。即事情計之境。非觀智之境故。」(CBETA, T45, no. 1884, p. 684, c4-6) "Except for the dharmadhatu of phenomena, phenomena are not independently established and so within the dharma-dhatu school [aka Huayan]" there are no isolated or singular dharmas. If one observes something on its own then this phenomenon would be an object of conventional perception because it is not an object seen with wisdom." One might accuse them of misunderstanding Indian Madhyamaka, but I feel that would be inappropriate because they were aware of it and had a specific classification for that view. Quoting Fazang: 《華嚴一乘教義分齊章》卷4：「答八不據遮六義約表。又八不約反情理自顯。六義據顯理情自亡。」(CBETA, T45, no. 1866, p. 502, c4-6) "Answered: 'The eight negations are based on negation methods [literally obstructing/concealment] and the six meanings are based on methods of revealing. Again, the eight negations reject the conventional and the principle reveals itself. The six meanings rely on revealing the principle and having the conventional itself disappear." 'Six meanings' is synonymous with the six characteristics above. Now, if should apply this analysis on the ground in a practical sense, we might consider Fazang's analysis. The object that Fazang took into consideration was a building. In simple terms: Totality is the whole building itself. Partiality are the various individual conditions (rafters, beams, walls, etc...). Similarity is the aspect where everything is identical on account of being dependently originated ergo empty. Everything is identical in the sense that everything is empty. Difference is the differences one observes from the standpoint of the individual conditions. Integration is the aspect where the individual conditions create the result. Disintegration is the aspect where each condition maintains its own individual characteristic. Totality and partiality are the essence 體. Similarity and difference are the characteristics 相. Integration and disintegration are the function 用. Finally, all these meanings or characteristics include the others. This is where we go from the concrete to the entirely abstract. Essentially these aspects are all relative to one another and each lack any sort of intrinsic identity within themselves. I think this is not at all unlike Nagarjuna declaring that even emptiness is empty. These six meanings as well in the end vanish under the force of their own analysis. Unlike the Madhyamaka method which uses thorough negation to reveal the lack of intrinsic existence within an object, thus concluding that said object does not ultimately exist and is unarisen, the Huayan method uses a kind of affirmative method to show that an object exists entirely dependently thereby by necessity not having any kind of intrinsic existence at all. From the Huayan perspective the saying in the Heart Sutra, "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form," would mean that form can only exist because it is empty -- in other words, because its mode of existence is dependent origination -- and emptiness can only be because there is something that could be empty. In short, for the Huayan thinker everything without exception is relational. When you apply that analysis to your own individual being, which seems to intrinsically exist as Nagarjuna might put it, you discover that you're neither really existent nor non-existent, but infinitely interconnected with the rest of the universe. You're but a jewel in Indra's net being reflected by all the other infinite jewels and you yourself are reflecting all those other infinite jewels. Your sense of "me" and "mine" vanishes as your sense of "self" expands to include all of totality and suddenly all those other infinite sentient beings are a part of your identity. At that point you're like mother and child. They're all drowning in the sea of samsara. You don't think twice about diving in and rescuing them. Your Bodhisattva vows go into high gear. Hence emptiness and compassion are non-dual. 觀色即空成大智而不住生死觀空即色成大悲而不住涅槃。以色空無二悲智不殊。 Huayan Master Fazang once wrote, "Seeing that form is emptiness manifests great wisdom and one does not abide in samsara. Seeing that emptiness is form manifests great compassion and one does not abide in nirvana. When form and emptiness are non-dual, compassion and wisdom are not different." Indrajala wrote: This is the "Flower Ornament Single Vehicle Dharma-Dhatu" diagram 華嚴一乘法界圖. It was composed in Silla (part of modern day Korea). If I'm not mistaken, you start from the fa 法 in the middle and follow it around. In Korea some monks apparently still memorize the whole thing. Kirtu wrote: So it's a kind of mnemonic device? Indrajala wrote: Perhaps meditative is the right way to put it. One goes through the whole interweaving chain of syllables and produces insight.

http://www.dharmaradio.org/dharmatalks/index.htm - Talks by Ven. Heng Sure on the "Ten Grounds Chapter" from the Avatamsaka Sutra.

Translation of Huayan Patriarch Cheng'guan's work by Ven. Indrajala: https://sites.google.com/site/dharmadepository/translations/examination-of-the-five-aggregates: 五蘊觀 Examination of the Five Aggregates 沙門澄觀述 Written by Śramaṇa Chéngguān 問。凡夫之人欲求解脫。當云何修。 Question: The common person seeks liberation. How should he practice? 答曰。當修二觀。 Answer: One should practice the two examinations. 二觀者何。一人空觀。二法空觀。 What are the two examinations? The first is the examination of the emptiness of persons. The second is the examination of the emptiness of phenomena [dharmas]. 夫生死之本莫過人法二執。 The root of saṃsāra – nothing goes beyond the two attachments to persons and phenomena. 迷身心總相。故執人我為實有。 One misunderstands the body and mind's collective characteristic and thus grasps the self of the person as an actual existent. 迷五蘊自相。故計法我為實有。 One misunderstands the five aggregates' individual characteristics and thus conceives the self of a phenomenon as an actual existent. 計人我者。用初觀照之。 For the conception of the self of person we utilize the first examination and investigate it. 知五蘊和合假名為人。 We then know the five aggregates come together and are provisionally called a person. 一一諦觀。但見五蘊。求人我相終不可得。 Each are carefully examined. We only see the five aggregates. We search for the self-characteristic of the person and in the end it cannot be obtained. 云何名為五蘊。色受想行識是。 What are called the five aggregates? They are form (rūpa), sensation (vedanā), perception (saṃjñā), volitional formations (saṃskāra) and consciousness (vijñāna). 云何觀之。 How does one examine them? 身則色蘊。所謂地水火風是。其相如何。 The body is the aggregate of form, which includes earth, water, fire and wind. What are their characteristics? 堅則地。潤則水。煖則火。動則風。 Solidity is earth. Moistness is water. Warmth is fire. Movement is wind. 觀心則四蘊。所謂受想行識是。其相如何。 In examining the mind there are four aggregates, which include sensation, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. What are their characteristics? 領納為受。取相為相。造作為行。了別為識。 Feeling is sensation. Apprehending characteristics is perception. Creating actions is volitional formations. Cognition is consciousness. 若能依此身心相。諦觀分明。於一切處但見五蘊。求人我相終不可得。 If we rely on these characteristics of body and mind, carefully examining and discerning them, then in all places we only see the five aggregates. We search out the self-characteristic of the person and in the end it cannot be obtained. 名人空觀。乘此觀。行出分段生死。永處涅槃。名二乘解脫。 We call this the examination of the emptiness of persons. If one utilizes this examination, one departs saṃsāra within the six realms and forever abides in nirvāṇa. We call this the liberation of the two vehicles. 計法我者用後觀照之。知一一蘊皆從緣生。都無自性。求蘊相不可得。則五蘊皆空。 For the conception of the self of a phenomenon we utilize the latter examination and investigate it. We then know that each of the aggregates all emerge from conditions and all are without self-nature [svabhava]. We search for the characteristics of the aggregates and they cannot be obtained, and so the five aggregates are all empty. 名法空觀。若二觀雙照。了人我法我。畢竟空無所有。 We call this the examination of the emptiness of phenomena. If we investigate with both examinations we understand the person's self and the phenomenon's self are ultimately empty without existence. 離諸怖畏。度一切苦厄。出變易生死。名究竟解脫。 Free from all fears, crossing over all pains and emerging into existence as a Bodhisattva – we call this ultimate liberation. 問。夫求解脫。祗是了妄證真。但能契真如理。寂然無念則便離縛。何假興心觀蘊方求解脫。豈不乖理哉。 Question: Seeking liberation is only just understanding delusion and realizing the truth. It is merely being able to realize the principle of tathātā – in quietude without thoughts, one is then free of bondage. How does one provisionally arouse the mind, examine the aggregates and then seek liberation? Is this not in opposition to the principle? 答。離蘊真妄約何而立。且五蘊者身心之異名。行人若不識身心真妄。何能懸契。 Answer: What is there to be established without aggregates, truth and delusion? Moreover, the five aggregates are a different name for the body and mind. Supposing the practitioner is not aware of the truth and delusions of body and mind, how could they completely understand them? 不達真妄之本。諸行徒施。 They do not reach the root of truth and delusion, and practices are vainly undertaken. 故經云。若於虗空終不能成。斯之謂也。 Thus the scripture states, “It is like in emptiness ultimately nothing being able to be established.” 且計人我者。凡夫之執也。計法我者。二乘之滯也。 Moreover, the conception of the self of the person is a delusional attachment of the ordinary person. The conception of the self of a phenomenon is a hindrance of the two vehicles. 故令修二觀。方能了妄證真。豈可離也。 Thus we have them practice the two examinations and they are then able to understand delusion and realize the truth. How could you do without this?

Ch'eng-kuan on the Hua-yen Trinity by Robert M. Gimello, University of Arizona - http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-BJ001/bj60469.htm

A 48 page commentary on the "Heart Sutra" by Kukai, founder of the Shingon sect of Buddhism, translated and annotated by Rev. Eijo: http://www.koyasan-u.ac.jp/mikkyobunka/blog/documents/kiyo24/24_thomas.pdf

The Transmission Of The Mind Outside The Teaching trans. by Charles Luk (Lu K'uan Yu) The Fourth Generation After The Patriarch Hui Neng: Ch'an Master Huang Po, Also Called Hsi Yun and Tuan Chi (One day) a monk asked the master, "What is Tao and how is it practiced?" The master asked back, "What Tao do you want to practice?" The monk said, "If so what is the purpose of Ch'an training and of the study of the Tao handed down from master to master of the Ch'an sect?" The master replied, "All this is to receive and guide men of dull roots and is not reliable." The monk asked, "If this is to receive and guide men of dull roots, what will you teach to men of superior roots?" The master replied. "If they are men of superior roots, what can you teach them to (help them) seek their own selves. If their own selves cannot be found, what is the Dharma which can match this (state)? Have you not read this in the sutra, 'What do the Dharmas look like?'" The monk said, "If so, there is no need to seek anything." The master said, "You can thus save your strength." The monk said, "If so, this is almost complete annihilation but does not show (its) non-existence." The master asked, "Who teaches its non-existence? What is it you want to seek?" The monk asked back, " If you do not formulate the search for it, why do you say it should not be annihilated?" The master replied, "If you do not search for it, that is all; who teaches you its annihilation? You see (empty) space before you; how are you going to annihilate it?" The monk asked, "Is this Dharma identical with space?" The master replied, "Does space tell you day and night whether it is identical or different? As soon as I speak of it you immediately give rise to your (discriminative) interpretation." The monk asked, "Do you even forbid interpretation?" The master replied, "I have never hindered you. Besides interpretation pertains to feeling and feeling screens wisdom." The monk asked, "Is it correct that no feelings should arise?" The master asked back, "If no feelings arise, who says it is correct?" The monk said, "As soon as I speak, (you seem to) to call it a slip of the tongue." The master asked, "The truth is that you do not understand my words; what slip do you mean?" The monk said, "So far all your words are to contradict others but you have not taught the real Dharma." The master asked, "The real Dharma is not upside-down but your questions give rise to inversion. What real Dharma do you search for?" The monk asked, "If my questions give rise to inversion, what about your answers to them?" The master said, "Just look into things that concern yourself but be unconcerned about other people's." He added, "This is like a mad dog barking when there is motion without even distinguishing between the wind in the grass and that among the trees." He further said, "This Ch'an sect of mine, inherited from past generations, has never taught people to seek knowledge amd interpretations. It formulates the study of Tao only to receive and guide beginners, but in reality Tao cannot be learned, for the study of it (is a passion that) screens the Tao. Tao has neither direction nor location, and is called the Mahayana-mind. This mind is neither within nor without nor in-between, and is beyond direction and location. The most important thing is to avoid knowing and interpreting. It is only said that the capacity of passion is where the Tao lies, and when this capacity is exhausted the mind is beyond direction and location. This Tao is the Bhutatathata and is nameless. Worldly men do not understand this and deceive themselves by staying in the midst of passions. This is why the Buddha appeared in the world to bare this matter. In case people do not understand it, it is expediently called Tao but you should not cling to (the word) Tao thereby giving rise to interpretation. Hence the saying, 'When the fish is caught, forget all about the trap' and then your body and mind will attain to the Tao of themselves. He who knows his mind and reaches its source is called a sramana. The sramana-fruit results from quieting passions but not from study. Now if you use the mind to seek mind, this is relying on the outside to learn (and copy) something from it; what then will you achieve? The ancients had sharp minds and as soon as they heard of a (teaching) word, they immediately stopped learning; hence they were called 'Men of Tao in their non-active and beyond learning states'. Nowadays, people want to widen their knowledge and interpretation by gathering meanings in the scriptures, and call this their practice without appreciating that wide knowledge and interpretation can turn into obstruction (to their realization of the Truth). This is like giving too much butter to a baby without knowing if it can digest it or not. Students of the Three Vehicles (of sravakas, pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas) are all like this and are called those who do not digest what they eat. Therefore, all knowledge and interpretation which are not assimilable, are poisons, for they drive people into the realm of birth and death. There is no such thing in the absolute state of suchness (Bhutatathata). Hence it is said that 'in my royal storehouse there is no such sword.' You should banish from and empty yourself of all previous (knowledge and) interpretation; this is wiping out what is and means the Dharma-raja (the King of the Law or the Buddha) appearing in the world, which also means 'When the Tathagata was with Dipamkara, He did not obtain anything from the Dharma'. This last sentence serves to empty yourself of all passionate interpretation and knowing capacity, and by exhausting all feelings within and without so that nothing remains, you will become an unconcerned man. The teaching of the Three-Vehicles are only medicines prescribed to responsive potentialities. all preachings according to circumstances and all temporary methods of teaching differ from one another. If you are clear about them, you are not deceived by them. The most important thing is not to cling to individual capability and special teaching words, in order to interpret the scriptures. Why so? Because 'there is no fixed Dharma the Tathagata can expound'. This sect of mine does not discuss all this. It will suffice to know how to rest the mind (and nothing else), for there is no need to think of yesterday and to worry about the morrow." The monk asked, "It is always said that mind is Buddha but I do not know which mind is Buddha." The master asked back, "How many minds do you have?" The monk asked, "Is the worldly mind or the holy mind Buddha?" The master asked back, "Where are your worldly and holy minds?" The monk said, "The Three Vehicles speak of the worldly and holy minds; how can you say they are not?" The master said, "The Three Vehicles clearly say that both the worldly and holy minds are false. You do not understand the teaching and now regard both as existing. You take what is false for real, is this not wrong? Because you are wrong, your mind is deluded. But just banish both the worldly and holy states and there will be no other Buddha outside your mind. The Patriarch came from the West to give direct indication that all men are wholly Buddhas. Now because you do not know this, you grasp the worldly and the holy and let your mind wander outside thereby deluding itself. Hence you are told that mind is identical with Buddha. As soon as a worldly thought arises, you immediately slip into heterodoxy. Since time without beginning, the mind has never differed from what it is today. Because there is no different Dharma, it is called supreme enlightenment (samyaksambodhi)." The monk asked, "What is the reason for your use of (the word) identical?" The master replied, "What reason do you search for? As soon as there is some reason, your mind will differ (from what it fundamentally is)." The monk asked, "You have said that since time without beginning it has never differed from what it is today; what does this mean?" The master replied, "It is because of your search for it that you differ from it. If you do not search, what is the difference?" The monk asked, "If it has never differed, why did you say that it is identical?" The master replied, " If you do not hold on to the worldly and the holy (states) who will tell you about the identical? If the identical is no longer identical, the mind also will no longer be mind, thereby banishing both the identical and the mind, then where will you make your search?" The monk asked, "As falsehood screens the self-mind, what should be used to wipe out falsehood?" The master replied, "The false (idea) of wiping out falsehood is also a falsehood. Falsehood is rootless and springs from discrimination. Now if you only cease discriminating between the worldly and the holy, falsehood will be no more. How then can you wipe it out? You should refrain from even the least clinging to it, and this is the meaning of the sentence, 'I give up my two arms and am bound to be a Buddha.'" The monk asked, "If there is no clinging, what then is to be transmitted (from master to pupil)?" The master replied, "The mind is used in this transmission (of mind)." The monk asked, "If the mind is used in the transmission of mind, then why did you say that there is no-mind?" The master replied, The non-acquisition of a single thing is called the transmission of mind. If you are clear about this mind, there is no-mind and also no-Dharma." The monk asked, "If there be neither mind nor Dharma (thing) what does the transmission stand for?" The master replied, "When you hear about the transmission of mind, you wrongly think that there is something to be gained. Hence the Patriarch said: Only when the nature of the mind is realized Can one say that it cannot be conceived. Nothing, clearly, can be realized For if it be, there's no awareness of it. How can this be taught fittingly to awaken worldly men?" The monk asked, "Is the space in front of us an object? Is it possible to perceive the mind without being shown its object?" The master said, "Which mind teaches you to perceive itself by means of its object? Even if you could perceive it, it would be a (subjective) mind which sees its object. This is like a man looking at his face in a mirror. Although he sees clearly his eyebrows and eyes, they are just an image. What connection does this image have with your mind?" The monk asked, "If its reflection does not come into play, when can the mind be perceived?" The master said, "If this implies a cause, which means that you must always rely on objects, when will you be awakened (to the absolute mind)? Have you not read these lines: 'Suddenly it resembles you but there is not a (real) thing. It is sterile to discuss it in several thousand ways.' The monk asked, "When it is thoroughly known, is it true that there is nothing (that can be) reflected?" The master replied, "If there is nothing, what is the use of reflecting? Do not open your eyes while talking in your sleep....You will have only to keep from all that is and is not so that your mind will be solitary like the sun in midheaven, bright and shining by itself. Does not this save a great deal of vigour? When you reach this stage, there will be no fixed abode to stay at as you tread the BUddha path, which means 'developing a mind which does not abide in anything'. This is your pure and clean Dharmakaya which is called Anubodhi (Supreme Enlightenment). If you do not awaken to it, although you may gather wide knowledge and have done austerities by wearing clothing made of grass and by eating wild plants, your non-cognizance of the mind is called heresy and will join the retinue of heavenly demons. What advantage do you gain from such practice? Hence Ch'an master Pao Chih said, 'Buddha being basically the self-mind, how can it be found in books?' Even if you succeed in learning the three virtuous stages, the four grades of Hinayana saintship, and the whole ten highest stages of Bodhisattva attainments your whole mind still remains within the worldly and holy realms. Have you not read this sentence: 'All phenomenal changes belong to the realm of birth and death' also (the following verses) With force expended, a spent arrow is bound to fall and cause Distasteful things to follow in the next incarnation. How can it then compare with the wu-wei reality, Which ensures a leap straight to the Tathagata stage? Since you are not a man of such calibre you should follow the converting instruction devised by the ancients in order to widen your knowledge and interpretation. Ch'an master Pao Chih said, 'If you do not meet with an enlightened master appearing in the world, you will vainly take the Dharma-medicine of Mahayana.'"

Collectively we're all guilty of lacking the exercise of the paramita of [moral] discipline (sila). Sila ---> Samadhi ---> Prajna.

Each of us are interacting with each others neuroticism, at some point, there will eventually be flare ups. It's not a mystery why most threads in the Buddhist sub-forum devolve into a shit show. It seems to work fine for the folks over at the dharmaoverground forums.

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TI, are you trying to divorce the necessity of the guru from the path of Dzogchen? The guru is integral to the path of Dzogchen.

ChNN also translates rigpa as 'instant presence'; dranpa as 'mindfulness' or 'presence'. There's a specific context for why he translates rigpa as 'instant presence'.

TI, I quote Malcolm because: 1. He's knowledgeable about Buddhist tenet systems as a consequence of his years of study. 2. Because he's a competent translator that can read the source material in its native languages. 3. His posts on Dzogchen are derived from ChNN's teachings. I'm not going to waste my time responding to the rest of your post as it's irrelevant to the previous line of discussions.

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CT, he said those people would receive scorn for their religious beliefs on this forum, obviously that can't be true across the board, because there is a whole sub-forum where people discuss Christianity. As for their political views...well that's a different story.

Steve, in case you're wondering: I don't have any animosity or scorn against the Bonpo.

Steve, what are you talking about? There's a whole sub-forum where people discuss Bible passages and Christian mysticism.

No one's expected to automatically agree with how ChNN teaches Dzogchen, but since Steve decided to voice his disapproval of a translation of a Dzogchen term, I in turn decided to voice an opinion that was opposite to his own. If you guys don't want someone voicing an opposing opinion then it's best not to bring up the topic in the first place.

It's inevitable especially since its been declared as emancipated from the confines of "Institutional Buddhism."

Either way, paraphrasing ChNN, we need to recognize our limitations. "Many people have the idea that Dzogchen is a beautiful path of self-liberation and say, ‘What needs to be changed?’ Everything is Samantabhadra: everything you see naturally liberates.’ They have this nice idea but their understanding just remains on an intellectual level. In practice, they are totally distracted and are not in the state of rigpa or contemplation at all. In which case, everything is not in the condition of Samantabhadra. If you do not make this distiction clear it can become a problem. You may think everything is Samantabhadra and fool yourself for the whole of your life. This can be very dangerous. If someone understands and truly integrates all of their sense contacts into the state of contemplation, then certainly that is the state of Samantabhadra or the state of integration. But a normal person does not have this capacity. Even if someone has had certain experiences of knowledge they do not spend all their lives in the state of integration - in fact, they still have many distractions.” ~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu It seems to be a loaded question on TTB's since apparently Dzogchenpa's are only supposed to practice formless shamatha and tregcho.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33057-tenzin-wangyal-rinpoche/?p=511021 I just returned from a 6 day silent Dzogchen retreat with Tenzin Rinpoche. Simply put, the practices are authentic and effective provided the student is ready. HH the Dalai Lama respects the Bön lineage so that's a good enough reference for me. Tenzin Rinpoche is warm, approachable, direct, genuine, and powerful. I highly recommend his teachings to anyone looking to make an important change in their life. He offers very high level practices and opportunities as you say and there are no strings attached other than those you bring with you. ... These 'high level practices' could be a variety of things so he would need to clarify without breaking samaya.

Does this mean you practice ngondro? Because I've seen transmission for the ZZNG ngondro advertised on Tenzin Wangyal's ligmincha website. Or do you practice according to the A-khrid cycle?

Anything can be "Dzogchen practice" as long as you have received direct introduction by a qualified/authorized guru and recognized the nature of mind [sems nyid].

What do you mean by "Dzogchen?" According to TI this means formless shamatha and tregcho.

Yes they do, but what I'm trying to say is that Dzogchen employs methods which are classifiable as 'tantric practices'. TI seems to think that Dzogchenpa's limit their repertoire to formless shamatha and tregcho.

I have one of his books.