Simple_Jack

I want a straight answer! Why do insist on engaging in double standards and logical fallacies when you encounter the buddhadharma?

Gatito, why are you so entrenched in double standards and logical fallacies? It's as if you are deliberately and completely biased towards acknowledging these double standards made against buddhadharma.

Marigpa is the experience of the afflicted nidanas which means that consciousnesses dependently originates due to the meeting of a sense organ and a sense object.

Buddhism is not rocket science. An individual doesn't have to learn reams of complicated philosophy to understand the dependent nature of afflictions. The barrier, for those individuals who cling to Atman, is a failure to examine the arising and passing of the aggregates, in direct experience, instead of solidifying "Consciousness/Awareness" into an actual existence or entity.

http://www.garchen.net/lineage.html#mahamudra ...The Mahamudra lineage can be traced according to the "far-lineage" as well as the "near-lineage." The "far-lineage" is traced from the current holders of this profound lineage back all the way to the historical Buddha Shakyamuni. The "near-lineage" on the other hand is traced from the current holders back to the Indian mahasiddhas such as Saraha, Maitripa, Tilopa and Naropa who received Mahamudra teachings directly from Buddha Vajradhara. However, it should be pointed out that although these Indian mahasiddhas received Mahamudra teachings directly from Buddha Vajradhara (and hence is part of the "near-lineage") they are also holders of the "far-lineage" as they also received Mahamudra teachings from human teachers who were holders of this "far-lineage." Hence, the Mahamudra lineages that are currently held by the various Kagyu lineages are both of the "far" as well as "near" lineages. It should be pointed out that Mahamudra lineages are also found in the Gelug tradition as several past masters of this tradition also received Mahamudra instructions from holders of the Mahamudra in the Kagyu tradition. This lineage of the Mahamudra is known as the "Gelug-Kagyu Mahamudra" lineage — sometimes translated as the "Gelug Whispered Mahamudra" or the "Gelug Oral Mahamudra" lineage. Most of Kagyu Mahamudra lineages stem from the Mahamudra teachings that were given by Gampopa (1079-1153) to his students. Gampopa himself received Mahamudra from his root-teacher Milarepa (1052-1135) who in turn received it from his root-teacher Marpa (1012-1096). Marpa was a Tibetan who traveled to India and Nepal and received many teachings from the Indian mahasiddhas — the most important being Naropa and Maitripa who transmitted to Marpa the complete Mahamudra ground, path and fruition. Gampopa himself combined the profound teachings of Mahamudra with the graduated approach of practice as taught by the Kadam tradition. The Indian pandit Atisha founded the Kadam tradition in Tibet. Gampopa was a monk in the Kadam tradition before he became Milarepa's disciple. Although there are many scholarly debates in Tibetan Buddhist history over the status and types of Mahamudra, Gampopa seemed to have mainly advocated two possible approaches to Mahamudra. According to Gampopa, Mahamudra can be approached via the way of sutra as well as via the way of tantra. Hence, there is sutra-Mahamudra and tantra-Mahamudra. Sometimes it is said that Gampopa also taught a third approach to Mahamudra which is neither sutra-based nor tantra-based. The Kagyu Lineage Masters — Tilopa, Naropa and Marpa From Gampopa onwards, many different Mahamudra lineages began to crystallize according to the different styles of Mahamudra taught by Gampopa and his spiritual descendents. Some of the Mahamudra traditions that can be traced back to Gampopa or his descendents are the tradition of "Simultaneous Production and Union," the "Six Equal Tastes," the "Four Letters" and the "Fivefold Profound Path." These traditions are still upheld by the four surviving Kagyu lineages (Karma, Taglung, Drukpa and Drigung Kagyu).... P.S. The differentiation between the approaches of Mahamudra is not as necessarily clear cut as the article makes it seem.

Contributing factors to the formulation of Sutra Mahamudra include the dohas of the Mahasiddhas, tantras, etc. The differentiation between the "near" and "far" lineage deals with the direct transmission of Mahamudra from Vajradhara or through a line of human teachers.

No, not all Gelugpas are Shugden practitioners.

4 yogas is Sutra Mahamudra. Jamgon Kongtrul clarifies the schema of sutra, tantra, essence Mahamudra in his "Treasury of Knowledge: Esoteric Instructions" -- http://www.google.com/url?q=http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Treasury_of_Knowledge.html%3Fid%3D1HeYkpovPhEC&sa=U&ei=6coKU6fiLdCdkQfL-YDwBw&ved=0CA0QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNFpTIh4sbMISbu3dnbRr0aW5pcfZg

@ TI Gampopa is responsible for creating Sutra Mahamudra. What differentiates sutra and tantra is method. Sutra Mahamudra is counted as pith instruction.

@ TI I don't think it's anyone's intention to disparage any particular set of teachings by comparing and contrasting the insights between individual traditions, teachers, etc. If the above offends you, for the reason just stated, then this is something you should reflect on; instead of succumbing to a knee jerk reaction of aversion towards someone who doesn't conform to perennialism.

@ Jeff I think its valid. There are others, in various online communities, who have described the experience of what AEN and Thusness describe, as "no-mind". Jiddu Krishnamurti is an example of someone who had an experience of "no-mind". Their description and usage of the term "no-mind" does not reflect on the meaning of this term as used in the sutras, Zen, etc.; in Mahayana, the term no-mind, correlates to 2-fold emptiness. I'm just posting the above for sharing purposes, so ultimately, it's up to the individual reading any of this to decide what to make of it.

From AEN (xabir2005) of the "Awakening to Reality" blog: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/substantial-and-insubstantial-non.html?m=0 Although Bernadette Roberts' experience is closer to Buddhist enlightenment than many other non-Buddhist teachers, it is still not quite there. The experience of no-mind might be there, the realization of the dharma seal of anatta or no-self isn't. I wrote last year: No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight Many teachers only point to No Mind (no mind as I define it here, the complete dissolving of any subjectivity, "Where even the naked Awareness (as any sort of subject or unified mind) is totally forgotten and dissolved into simply scenery, sound, arising thoughts and passing scent." - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com. ... ctice.html) or the experience of "no self" as a stage or state of experience. Having experiences is quite common. Unfortunately not many Realize the profound insight of anatta let alone emptiness. To me, effortless, natural and liberating experience only comes from the arising of insight. The experience of no-mind sounds similar but there is a vast difference with experiential realization. It is thus important to clearly distinguish them. Even after anatta, one should further penetrate into D.O. and emptiness. 2008: Thusness: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com. ... en-at.html whatever said is really “already is”. In seeing, there is always only the seen. In hearing there is always only the sound. Never was there a seer or hearer. All “already is”. Anatta is truly a seal. How amazing! In 2008, a conversation with Thusness about Bernadette Roberts: (1:31 AM) AEN: she said meister eckhart also reached anatta? (1:58 AM) AEN: http://www.nonduality.com/berna.htm (1:58 AM) AEN: im reading it again.. (1:58 AM) AEN: i tink its related to ur 6 stages as well (edit: referring to http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... ience.html) (2:04 AM) AEN: Chapter 1 is talking about stage 1. Chapter 2~3 is stage 2. Chapter 4 is stage 3. Chapter 5 is realising spontaneity and effortless action of stage 3. Chapter 6 is stage (1:13 PM) AEN: Chapter 6 is stage 4-5 (1:24 PM) Thusness: Robert description is still very much in the journey of understanding the profound meaning of anatta. It is nowhere near experiencing emptiness directly. (1:26 PM) Thusness: what she is in is in a state of non-duality struggling to understand the experience of non-dual which she call no-self. Still have not gone beyond the propensities of dualism in the deepest sense. This is not the turning point yet in my opinion. (1:26 PM) AEN: icic.. (1:26 PM) Thusness: True turning point is a vividness of anatta is just manifestation alone. (1:27 PM) Thusness: it is total dissolving of 'Self' in whatever sense in clear lucidity and intense luminosity. (1:27 PM) AEN: Now Roberts saw neither emptiness nor relationship, but what Is. And what Is is everything, but not the self. This marked the end of the Great Passageway. (1:27 PM) Thusness: there is no sense of thoughts, only crystal clarity and mere lucid sensate vibration. (1:27 PM) Thusness: there is no need to paste me further. (1:27 PM) AEN: icic.. but wat she described is like just manifestation rite (1:28 PM) Thusness: i know the experience is not there yet in my opinion. (1:28 PM) AEN: oic.. (1:28 PM) Thusness: what she experienced is still not what longchen experienced. (1:28 PM) AEN: icic.. (1:28 PM) Thusness: in no time, if longchen practice diligently, he will experience the true essence of anatta. (1:29 PM) AEN: oic.. (1:29 PM) Thusness: but since he left temasek, i hope he can still deligate time for his practice. (1:29 PM) AEN: icic.. ya hope so (1:29 PM) Thusness: to have the right view penetrate into daily action, requires some time and right condition. (1:30 PM) Thusness: if the condition is right, it might just take a year. (2:02 PM) Thusness: wah...the url u pasted is very good. (2:03 PM) AEN: which url (2:03 PM) Thusness: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=-uj ... EuHo&hl=en Wei Yu: some relevant parts by Bernadette: ...The whole point is that as long as consciousness remains, it functions in conjunction with the senses and does not allow for "pure" sensory knowing. Thus we must keep in mind that apart froM consciousness or separate from it, the senses have their own way-of-knowing and partake of a dimension of existence not available to consciousness. Although it is not our intention to go into the nature of "pure" sensory knowing, it is important to note that once consciousness falls away sensory knowing turns out to be quite different from what we had previously believed it to be. Where we thought the senses had been responsible for discriminating the particular and singular, and believed that consciousness and the intellect posited the universal or whole, it turns out to be the other way around. The senses do not know, and cannot focus on, the particular or singular; it is nowhere in their power to do so. Consciousness alone has this focusing and discriminating power. Thus by themselves the senses cannot discriminate the singular or particular, and without the singular there is also no plural, no parts and wholes, no one-and-the-many. Sensory knowing is not derived by reflection, intuition, feeling or any such experience; instead, whatever is to be known is simply "there" - quite flatly with no thought or feeling. The senses merely apprehend "what is" with none of the distinctions, discriminations and labeling that are so indicative of the function of consciousness. As it turns out, consciousness is a discriminator, discriminating the particular and multiple, the knower and known, subject and object. Its dimension is entirely relative, while senses are non-discriminating and non-relative, knowing neither parts nor whole. Also, pure sensory knowing is neither a different type of consciousness nor a different level of the same; rather, it is a totally different system or way of knowing - virutally a different dimension of existence. Pure sensory knowing bears no resemblance to the knowing, experiencing dimension of consciousness. Obviously there are more ways of knowing than that of consciousness... ............ In turn, this means that when the mechanism is cut off, we not only lose awareness of the self—or the agent of consciousness on a conscious level—but we lose awareness of the self on an unconscious level as well. Stated more simply: when we can no longer verify or check back (reflect) on the subject of awareness, we lose consciousness of there being any subject of awareness at all. To one who remains self-conscious, of course, this seems impossible. To such a one, the subject of consciousness is so self-evident and logical, it needs no proof. But to the unself-conscious mind, no proof is possible. The first question to be asked is whether or not self-consciousness is necessary for thinking, or if thinking goes right on without a thinker. My answer is that thinking can only arise in a self-conscious mind, which is obviously why the infant mentality cannot survive in an adult world. But once the mind is patterned and conditioned or brought to its full potential as a functioning mechanism, thinking goes right on without any need for a self-conscious mechanism. At the same time, however, it will be a different kind of thinking. Where before, thought had been a product of a reflecting introspective, objectifying mechanism—ever colored with personal feelings and biases—now thought arises spontaneously off the top of the head, and what is more, it arises in the now-moment which is concerned with the immediate present, making it invariably practical. This is undoubtedly a restrictive state of mind, but it is a blessed restrictiveness since the continual movement inward and outward, backward and forward in time, and in the service of feelings, personal projections, and all the rest, is an exhausting state that consumes an untold amount of energy that is otherwise left free. What this means is that thinking goes right on even when there is no self, no thinker, and no self-consciousness; thus, there is no such thing as a totally silent mind—unless, of course, the mind or brain (which I view as synonymous) is physically dead. Certainly something remains when the mind dies, but this "something" has nothing to do with our notions or experiences of a mind, or of thought, or of ordinary awareness. (2:03 PM) AEN: oic (2:08 PM) Thusness: it will be a good read and guide for u. (2:08 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:08 PM) AEN: tats anatta? (2:09 PM) Thusness: not yet (2:09 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:09 PM) Thusness: why so? (2:09 PM) AEN: views? (2:09 PM) Thusness: because there is no clarity of no-self. (2:10 PM) AEN: oic wat is clarity of no self (2:10 PM) Thusness: though what she said is one of the important factor of transiting from non-dual to anatta, it is hardly the essence of our no-self empty nature. (2:11 PM) AEN: oic (2:11 PM) AEN: which is the important factor (2:11 PM) Thusness: Though she is right that pure sensory knowing of 'forms' is different from consciousness knowing 'forms' (2:11 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:11 PM) Thusness: there is no clear insight that even there is consciousness, it is still anatta. (2:12 PM) Thusness: a vivid expression of our essence without any difference. (2:12 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:12 PM) Thusness: the essence of there is thoughts, no thinker. (2:13 PM) Thusness: and in thinking, always only thoughts is not clearly understood and vividly experienced. (2:13 PM) AEN: Roberts states that when we can no longer attend to the subject of our awareness, we have no consciousness of there being a subject. One question that arises is whether thinking goes on without a thinker. Roberts says that when there is no self, no self-consciousness, the conditioned mind functions at its full potential, and there is no longer reflection, introspection or the intrusion of feelings and biases. Instead, "whatever is to be known is spontaneously there...in the now moment." Therefore, thought goes on even when there is no self, no thinker. (2:13 PM) AEN: in her previous book, http://www.nonduality.com/berna.htm (2:13 PM) Thusness: this is different from saying and repeating it aloud in our mind. (2:14 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:14 PM) Thusness: experientially it is liberating. (2:14 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:14 PM) Thusness: yeah...that is right. (2:15 PM) Thusness: but it is not thoughts goes on even there is no thinker. (2:15 PM) Thusness: it is there is always no thinker, only thoughts. (2:15 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:15 PM) Thusness: once u see it as a 'stage', there is no understanding of what anatta is. (2:15 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:15 PM) Thusness: then one differentiate between the higher teachings and the lower teachings of buddhism. (2:16 PM) Thusness: but from Theravada to Mahayana to Dzogchen, all is/are the same. (2:16 PM) Thusness: it is taught, just that it is not known. (2:16 PM) Thusness: anatta and DO is already self-liberation. (2:16 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:17 PM) Thusness: Although there is a need to emphasize that Theravada fail to see the essence of the teachings, it is not right to say that Buddha did not make this clear. (2:18 PM) AEN: oic how come theravada fail to see the essence of the teachings (2:18 PM) Thusness: What Robert stated is like the cases of one and two in the 'clarifying of natural state' (2:18 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:19 PM) Thusness: actually it is the same for all...it is not a problem perculiar only in Theravada. (2:19 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:19 PM) Thusness: it is not the case 3 as stated in the innate state of thinking, perception, vision..etc (2:19 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:20 PM) Thusness: always keep this in mind: Experiences goes with insight. (2:20 PM) Thusness: Only after the insight, there is true experience. (2:21 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:21 PM) AEN: in bernadette roberts' case it is insight also rite (2:21 PM) AEN: i brb (2:21 PM) Thusness: Otherwise, it is always a 'stage' and thus still a form of delusion. (2:21 PM) Thusness: When it is understood that it is our natural state, that is true insight. (2:22 PM) AEN: back (2:22 PM) AEN: icic.. (2:22 PM) Thusness: It is insight into the non-dual nature of experience though there are glimpses of anatta....it is not the insight of stage 5. (2:22 PM) AEN: oic.. (2:24 PM) Thusness: by the way whatever i told u, just take it as a reference. (2:24 PM) AEN: ok (2:24 PM) Thusness: don't take it like a bible. (2:24 PM) AEN: lol (2:24 PM) Thusness: u have to experience it urself. (2:24 PM) AEN: icic.. ... (8:22 PM) Thusness: but it will take some time. Anatta will not dawn that fast. (8:22 PM) Thusness: the furthest u go is non-duality, still mostly advaita sense. (8:22 PM) Thusness: like that of david carse. (8:22 PM) AEN: icic.. (8:22 PM) Thusness: for anatta to arise, it will require some time. (8:22 PM) AEN: oic.. (8:23 PM) AEN: bernadette roberts also like non dual in the advaita sense? (8:23 PM) Thusness: as u need to understand right 'views', its relationship with consciousness, propensities and the conceptual aspect of anatta, emptiness and DO. Their profound meaings. (8:24 PM) Thusness: i would say so...for bernadette roberts. (8:24 PM) AEN: icic.. (8:24 PM) Thusness: the right 'views' are very important but it is not a view really. (8:25 PM) Thusness: for u to go from 5 onwards...even for 4 to 5. It is important. ... Session Start: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 (9:54 PM) Thusness: what she (Bernadette Roberts) said is her own understanding. (9:55 PM) Thusness: means she only picks on certain words like 'no-self' (9:55 PM) Thusness: and started elaborating it. (9:55 PM) Thusness: It is similar to a person talking about 'emptness' and treating emptiness as 'nothingness' (9:56 PM) Thusness: but the doctrine of anatta and emptiness is the core of buddhism. She cannot speak of it using her 'skewed' understanding. (9:56 PM) AEN: oic.. (9:57 PM) Thusness: the profound meaning of no-self requires one to experience within our deepest experience our whole life. (9:57 PM) AEN: her writing treats no self as not a seal, but rather a stage where all self whether ego, phenomenal, feeling or knowing self, and even true self or divine self as ended (9:57 PM) AEN: oic (9:57 PM) Thusness: it is a the obstacles of all hindrances (9:57 PM) AEN: icic.. (9:57 PM) Thusness: yeah (9:57 PM) Thusness: to her, it is a stage (9:57 PM) Thusness: to buddhism, it is a seal. (9:58 PM) AEN: oic (9:58 PM) Thusness: it is from before beginning...it is already so. (9:58 PM) Thusness: 'self' is learnt (9:58 PM) Thusness: it is not inborn (9:58 PM) Thusness: it is a 'view' that is deeply rooted in us (9:58 PM) Thusness: due to karmic propensities (9:58 PM) AEN: icic.. (9:59 PM) Thusness: these 'views' are aquired. (9:59 PM) AEN: oic.. (9:59 PM) Thusness: so once we are able to know why luminosity should not be taken as 'Self', we become clear. (10:00 PM) Thusness: why we should not see 'things' as 'objects' (10:00 PM) Thusness: but as emptiness and luminosity ever manifesting (10:00 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:00 PM) AEN: btw bernadette's experience of nondual is pathless rite means no entry and exit? yet she havent understand anatta? (10:01 PM) Thusness: u can say so except that there is no clarity of insight. (10:02 PM) Thusness: in terms of experience she knows there is no entry or exit...but when she attempts to articulate in terms of concepts, it becomes incoherent. (10:02 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:03 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to convey the experience except that one should have faith in Buddha and walk the path. (10:03 PM) Thusness: just like it is difficult to communicate the difference between stage 1 and 2. (10:03 PM) Thusness: and stage 4 to stage 2. (10:03 PM) Thusness: then stage 5. (10:04 PM) Thusness: unless one experiences it or demonstrate very strong conditions of the tendencies for the awakening of certain insight. (10:04 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:05 PM) Thusness: Like I have been telling u but u have not grasp the essence yet. (10:05 PM) Thusness: what i can tell u are to make them into points. (10:05 PM) Thusness: like propensities (10:05 PM) Thusness: like luminosity (10:05 PM) Thusness: like emptiness (10:05 PM) Thusness: telling u that all already is. (10:06 PM) Thusness: but it is very difficult for u to understand unless u go through cycles after cycles of refinements (10:06 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:06 PM) Thusness: then u realised that what u r doing is merely overcoming of deeply inherent 'views' (10:06 PM) Thusness: once that is clear and thorough, the 'already is' manifests (10:07 PM) Thusness: and all is without much effort and self sustaining for the nature is so. (10:07 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:07 PM) Thusness: because of our views of seeing things inherently, 'will and control' is the way we act. (10:08 PM) Thusness: when there is arising, 'we' attempt to 'rid' it...for that 'attempt', that 'we', that 'will' are all illusions. (10:08 PM) Thusness: they are illusions created by our inherent views and nothing else. (10:09 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:09 PM) Thusness: like getting rid of thoughts (10:09 PM) Thusness: like getting rid of evil thoughts (10:09 PM) Thusness: like getting rid of something... (10:09 PM) Thusness: then we asked if we don't get rid of it...then 'how' (10:09 PM) Thusness: it is only insight... (10:10 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:10 PM) Thusness: true insight (10:10 PM) AEN: ya the getting rid and the 'how' are all extras (10:12 PM) Thusness: without all those arbitrary inherent/dualistic views, our nature are already pristine, luminous and empty (10:12 PM) Thusness: unconditioned (10:13 PM) Thusness: but we can't 'see' and 'understand' in conventional terms and it is very difficult to put it across conventionally. (10:14 PM) AEN: oic.. Early 2010: (9:12 PM) Thusness: no...i mean from a practical aspect, anatta and which aspect belongs to anatta. experience is different from insight many still cannot differentiate (9:12 PM) AEN: oic.. (9:12 PM) Thusness: no mind is an experience, it is not an insight (9:14 PM) Thusness: ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again. (9:14 PM) Thusness: but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization. (9:14 PM) AEN: icic.. (9:14 PM) Thusness: that all along it is so. Early 2010: (10:17 PM) Thusness: Next also understand that when one says "completely without the background" or "without remainder", it is not simply an experience of losing the self into just the radiant world, into complete manifestation. "Without Remainder" requires the full maturing of right view with the right experience no-mind. (10:18 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:18 PM) AEN: no mind is like anatta experience, but must have right view to be maintained? (10:19 PM) Thusness: yes ... 2007: (3:31 PM) Thusness: buddhism is about wisdom, seeing. (3:31 PM) AEN: icic (3:31 PM) Thusness: not about attaining higher and higher stages... (3:31 PM) Thusness: it is not gone into what and what stage (3:31 PM) AEN: oic (3:31 PM) Thusness: it is about seeing more and more clearly our nature. (3:32 PM) Thusness: the nature is already so. (3:32 PM) Thusness: only in engagement and practice we see. 2009: (12:53 AM) Thusness: having more vivid experience of non-duality (12:53 AM) Thusness: but that is not the insight of anatta, ur experience will not be clear, vivid and effortless Session Start: Saturday, 5 September, 2009 (10:44 PM) AEN: hi.. how to experience nonduality effortlessly? (10:44 PM) Thusness: only through deep insight of anatta and dependent origination that is my experience (10:46 PM) Thusness: however with the arising insight of anatta, with practice of vipassana, it will turn effortless. the insight of anatta is most important (10:46 PM) Thusness: one will only realise the true meaning of bare attention after the arising insight of anatta (10:46 PM) AEN: oic.. but before that also can experience bare attention rite (10:47 PM) Thusness: yeah but the essence of it will not be known without the insight of anatta (10:48 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:51 PM) Thusness: it will come a time when the tendency to dualify dissolves due to deep insight (not just meditative stage), it will turn effortless, vivid and powerfully present. (10:51 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:53 PM) Thusness: it almost feel like a natural state of absorption yet vivid present because there is no sense of observer, agent, self just luminous manifestation. Session Start: Sunday, 6 September, 2009 (4:24 PM) Thusness: yes zen is about ordinary experience (4:25 PM) Thusness: yet u must understand what is meant by ordinary mind. the ordinary mind is the mind of anatta. (4:27 PM) AEN: oic.. (4:27 PM) Thusness: if we pretend to be ordinary and try to 'look' for expression of ordinariness then we are deluded. If we fail to realize that true ordinari-ness comes from the realization of anatta and mistaken the finger for the moon, we are deluded. (4:28 PM) Thusness: without the insight of anatta, how could we ever understand the essence of being natural, effortless and ordinary? This is what Buddhism meant by ordinary. (4:30 PM) AEN: icic.. it has to do with insight that makes nondual experience from concentrative to effortless? (4:31 PM) Thusness: yet I have seen ppl aftering 'ordinariness', try to be 'nothing special', attempting to look for expression of ordinariness. That is why for zen practitioners, they will not understand the seven phases of experience. They are caught up by 'forms', by the stages of the OX herding and missed the insight. (4:31 PM) AEN: oic.. (4:32 PM) Thusness: unless practitioners realize clearly how these insights lead to the ordinary and natural state, there is no meaning in looking for 'sweep floor and washing dishes' or 'chop wood carry water'. (4:36 PM) Thusness: once u realized anatta, ordinariness and the natural state mean something very different. (4:37 PM) Thusness: u can breathe hard, u can breathe soft, yet both are considered natural and ordinary. (4:38 PM) Thusness: u can take deep breath or short breath, still as non-dual, natural and ordinary. (4:38 PM) AEN: oic.. (4:38 PM) Thusness: sincere practitioners can take many years to come to this natural state even after the initial glimpse of insight. (4:39 PM) Thusness: of the anatta insight i mean. Session Start: Friday, 23 April, 2010 (10:28 PM) Thusness: u have to put in more effort and thoughts what is the difference between non-dual and anatta? (10:29 PM) Thusness: this u must be very clear (10:30 PM) AEN: back (10:31 PM) AEN: non dual is just the non division of subject object... but anatta is seeing through the sense of an inherent one mind/consciousness by seeing consciousness as just manifestation and insubstantial? (10:31 PM) Thusness: u r just memorizing words (10:32 PM) Thusness: give me experiential insight (10:34 PM) AEN: non dual before anatta still has some referencing back or clinging to something permanent... but anatta is just seeing consciousness as the transience, no referencing? im not sure (10:35 PM) Thusness: in non-dual, there are obsessed with behind reality (10:36 PM) Thusness: in anatta, u realized that such an 'inherent ultimate reality' does not exist. U directly experience phenomena (10:37 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:37 PM) Thusness: a practitioner cannot experience directly phenomena if in his inmost consciousness he still believe an inherent self (10:39 PM) Thusness: there is no vivid, present, direct experience of thoughts, no vivid, present, direct experience of sound, no vivid, present and direct experience of taste or simply just aggregates (10:41 PM) Thusness: once a practitioner thoroughly seen through this and have direct perception of the transient, he realizes both the essence and nature of so called 'phenomena' the aggregates (10:42 PM) Thusness: the functioning of DO. (10:42 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:42 PM) Thusness: it is not about the behind reality (10:43 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:44 PM) Thusness: it is the pure, vivid experience of the aggregates directly as that layer called 'self' isn't there to 'blind' him (10:44 PM) Thusness: the second important point is what is 'wu' (realization)? (10:44 PM) Thusness: ? (10:46 PM) Thusness: ? (realization) is what that brings about a 360 degree change (10:47 PM) Thusness: ur entire view, life...ur entire experiential reality (10:47 PM) Thusness: the impact of ? (realization) is transformational (10:47 PM) Thusness: that is why i say 'seeing' arising insight deeper seeing (10:48 PM) Thusness: that is what that will result in powerful and transformational change (10:48 PM) AEN: icic.. (10:48 PM) Thusness: that is practice (10:48 PM) AEN: practice? (10:48 PM) Thusness: to wu (10:50 PM) AEN: dun really understand (10:51 PM) Thusness: u must understand the impact of 'wu' or arising insight otherwise nothing change (10:51 PM) Thusness: nothing really transformational get it? (10:51 PM) AEN: ic.. yah so u mean the whole purpose of practice is to give rise to insight (10:52 PM) Thusness: we think that we must do this or that (10:52 PM) Thusness: but we do not know it is the 'insight' that brought about the 360 degree transformation (10:52 PM) Thusness: suffering too is to bring about such insight (10:53 PM) Thusness: therefore it is not do nothing it is about deeper seeing (10:53 PM) Thusness: get it? (10:53 PM) AEN: how does suffering bring such insight (10:54 PM) Thusness: don't just write for the sake of writing...as if u r rushing to answer someone go through it and clearly understand its implication (10:54 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:55 PM) Thusness: For awareness practice, 'insight' is all that matters. (10:55 PM) Thusness: u never c ppl writing so much, it is all talking about this deeper seeing (10:56 PM) Thusness: any other thing? it is not about 'chi' or practicing 'chi gong' (10:56 PM) Thusness: or mudra or visualization... get it? (10:56 PM) AEN: oic.. yah (10:57 PM) Thusness: so u must know from the perspective of awareness practice, what matters and what is meant by non-doing (10:57 PM) Thusness: it is the arising insight that brought about the change and that is all that matters to Awareness (10:58 PM) Thusness: so the insight of anatta and DO...what do these insights bring? get it? (10:59 PM) Thusness: in awareness practice, it is all about 'seeing', about arising insight, about ? (11:00 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:04 PM) Thusness: if ur insight matures, naturally everything is transparently clear and obvious (11:05 PM) Thusness: only and purely aggregates and function like DO. (11:05 PM) AEN: icic.. (11:05 PM) Thusness: u no more look and reference to a behind reality (11:06 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:12 PM) Thusness: non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division (11:12 PM) Thusness: it is the degree of clarity (11:14 PM) Thusness: when we are still not free from the influence of the dualistic and inherent tendencies, it is difficult to experience the 'aggregates' directly (11:15 PM) Thusness: when u realized it is also been so, no behind reality, then aggregates, thoughts, sound...etc are vividly clear (11:16 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:51 PM) Thusness: non-dual and anatta is a matter of degree of clarity of what? (11:52 PM) AEN: of awareness? of the transience (11:52 PM) Thusness: of the relationship between awareness and transience (11:52 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:54 PM) Thusness: one is truly existing behind reality somehow having a 'non-dual' experience. (11:54 PM) Thusness: one is realizing that awareness is a DO manifestation (11:55 PM) AEN: icic.. (12:02 AM) Thusness: it is the degree of clarity if the relationship between awareness and transience. what r u talking abt? (12:03 AM) AEN: hmm... rephrasing it: Non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division, it is the degree of clarity of the relationship between awareness and transience that matters. (12:04 AM) Thusness: why don't u just say 'between anatta and non-dual, it is just the degree and depth of clarity between Awareness and the Transience' (12:05 AM) AEN: oic.. ok (12:06 AM) Thusness: i go sleep liao nite (12:06 AM) AEN: ok.. nite (12:19 AM) Thusness: only and purely aggregates, only the 18 dhatus, 'only the world referencing itself'. The tendency to reference back to a 'Self/self' is replaced by the thorough insight of anatta and DO. and write in proper english... (12:20 AM) AEN: u're referring to " When insight matures, naturally everything is transparently clear and obvious, only and purely aggregates and function like Dependent Origination, no more looking and referencing to a behind reality." ? (12:20 AM) AEN: oh ya ok.. 2010, before realizing anatta, some advices by Thusness: (4:48 PM) Thusness: a wise person that has direct insight will understand once it is said but for u, i have told u upteem times to focus on wisdom and realizations, yet you continue to deviate. ... Thusness: This should be the natural state after the arising insight of anatta. In one of the conversation I told truthz to feel the taste as much as possible, pure taste, the touch, the texture, the skin touches the air, the vibration of train...etc. Think it is in ur forum also... ...u will understand when insight of anatta arise. (3:46 PM) Thusness: this will only comes clear after true insight arises. ... (7:35 PM) Thusness: therefore if u have the same insight, u have the experience. (7:36 PM) Thusness: there is nothing special, focus on the phases of insights and realizations ... (11:00 PM) Thusness: having realization and not having realization is world of difference (11:00 PM) Thusness: having just experience or non-dual or no-mind is not the same as having direct realization ... (11:51 PM) Thusness: to me anatta is not a state as i told u so to me, that is quite meaningless as such question does not arise to me. (11:52 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:53 PM) Thusness: when u realize what anatta is, u realize there isn't an observer behind anything... then how does the question about sensate imperfection arise? (11:53 PM) Thusness: it is like asking questions of where is Self/self when there is no-self. (11:54 PM) Thusness: and you insisting a way to become no-self. and say that this is more perfect than that... (11:54 PM) Thusness: this only happens to a particular state of attainment it does not refer to insight (11:55 PM) AEN: icic.. (11:56 PM) Thusness: when u see that the rope is not the snake, u don't ask question like how to tame the snake...what happen when the snake bites u...etc (11:56 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:56 PM) Thusness: or treat the snake like a rope misleading isn't it (11:57 PM) Thusness: all questions relating to 'snake' becomes irrelevant do u continue to ask such a question? (11:57 PM) Thusness: and expect an answer to tell u how to treat a snake like a rope? u realize and u stop asking u just use the rope as a rope ... (11:44 PM) Thusness: to me...i would consider that a form of efforting (11:45 PM) Thusness: think mentioned b4 in anatta article that such mode becomes effortless when anatta insight arises. Session Start: Tuesday, 6 July, 2010 (3:38 PM) Thusness: the center and still point will not disappear as a result of intermittent experience of no-mind. It requires deep insight of anatta to realize that the fundamental flaw of wrong view is the cause of the center. The center is the karmic tendency to hold, in actual experience, it is just the world that is self-luminous. Always and only this vivid obviousness, nothing else. (3:39 PM) AEN: icic.. (3:40 PM) Thusness: forget about the still point, all points on the surface of a sphere are 'a center'. The article of on TATA will be helpful. (3:41 PM) AEN: oic.. do i write that to him? (3:41 PM) Thusness: ok (3:41 PM) AEN: ok (3:41 PM) Thusness: also thank him for the clear description (3:42 PM) AEN: ok (3:42 PM) Thusness: it will also help u to understand where u r now. (3:42 PM) AEN: oic.. (3:58 PM) Thusness: why u just cut and paste (3:59 PM) Thusness: where is the TATA article? (3:59 PM) AEN: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... /tada.html July 2010: (10:10 AM) Thusness: what u must understand is that the experience of no-mind becomes effortless when insight of anatta matures (10:11 AM) Thusness: so u r not understanding how does the experience of no-mind arise ... (11:45 PM) Thusness: if u have not learnt anything from ur understanding of realization and experience, then how will u able to truly understand? (11:47 PM) Thusness: if till now u still do not understand the difference and still have the illusion that without the realization, there can be a break-through into effortless state, then there is no clarity about what leads to effortlessness and doubtlessness. ... (12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification. (12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist (12:15 AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent? (12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent (12:17 AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self? (12:17 AM) AEN: no On Ken Wilber: (11:01 PM) Thusness: it is witnessing (11:01 PM) Thusness: what ken wilber is the dissolving of that witnessing (11:01 PM) Thusness: what i said is that the dissolving is also an illusion. That is by itself a dualistic view though the experience is there. (11:02 PM) Thusness: ken wilber said there is a dissolving (11:03 PM) Thusness: means he actually feel that there is a dissolving (11:03 PM) Thusness: although he experiences the non-dual, the insight is still not there. (11:03 PM) AEN: Ken Wilber: Because at some point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness “in here” completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. “Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.” Session Start: Sunday, 29 May, 2011 (7:17 PM) Thusness: anatta is often not correctly understood it is common that one progress from experience of non-dual to no-mind instead of direct realization into anatta (7:19 PM) Thusness: many focus on the experience and there is a lack of clarity to penetrate the differences so u must be clear of the various phases of insights first and not mistake one for the other at the same time, refine ur experience these few days...have deeper sleep and exercise more balance ur body energies

Not really, since the above posts directly correlates to anatta, since stream-entry consists of the insight into the 3 seals i.e anicca, dukkha, anatta. All of this is an extension of the Buddha's teachings on dependent arising, the 4-noble truths, 8-fold noble path. Anatta = you are just a bundle of impermanent processes i.e 5 aggregates. There's not an absolute need to extensively learn anything beyond this, but there is a need for confidence in the basic teachings of dependent arising and the 4-noble truths.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks: "There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. "And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.' "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' [2] ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.' "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.' "Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' [3] "And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva,Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... theTusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas ofBrahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos." So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas. Then the Blessed One exclaimed: "So you really know, Kondañña? So you really know?" And that is how Ven. Kondañña acquired the name Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows.

What is to be abandoned is ignorance and what is to be adopted as worthy of refuge is knowledge: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.than.html "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way. "The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Release... Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present...Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance... "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way: fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html "And what is the noble method that is rightly seen and rightly ferreted out by discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. "In other words: "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress and suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of cravingcomes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering. "This is the noble method that is rightly seen and rightly ferreted out by discernment." Exactly. This is why there are four grades of saints i.e. stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner, foe-destroyer. In the Avatamsaka Sutra, there is the 52 stages of a bodhisattva's progression in the path, culminating with buddhahood; the 10 bhumi's of the path of seeing and path of meditation is included within this schema. Buddhahood is the only actual stage of awakening according to Mahayana.

You're construing the above as the 1st and 2nd noble truths when it actually represents the 3rd and 4th. What does the Buddha ascribe as the means towards the extirpation of craving and the cessation of dukkha? How does an individual, according to the Buddha, arrive at the cessation of dukkha? By means of the 8-fold noble path which starts with cultivating right view which is none other than dependent origination. I discussed in other threads, that this path differs in its contaminated form for a deluded sentient being as the mundane path, and for an ariya-puggala which then becomes the supramundane path in its pure form. Comprehending the dependent nature of afflictions are expressed in the conceptual model of the 12 nidanas, such as in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, which Nagarjuna summarizes into 3 categories of samskaras, karma, and dukkha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." http://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination The Heart of Dependent Originationby Arya Nagarjuna In the language of India: pratityasamutpada hridaya karika In the language of Tibet: རྟེན་ཅིང་འབྲེལ་པར་འབྱུང་བའི་སྙིང་པོའི་ཙིག་ལེའུར་བྱས་པ།, (ten ching drelpar jungwé nyingpö tsik le'ur jepa) Homage to Mañjushri, the Youthful! These different links, twelve in number, Which Buddha taught as dependent origination, Can be summarized in three categories: Mental afflictions, karma and suffering. The first, eighth and ninth are afflictions, The second and tenth are karma, The remaining seven are suffering. Thus the twelve links are grouped in three. From the three the two originate, And from the two the seven come, From seven the three come once again— Thus the wheel of existence turns and turns. All beings consist of causes and effects, In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all. From phenomena which are exclusively empty, There arise only empty phenomena. All things are devoid of any ‘I’ or ‘mine’. Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal, A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound, So also with the continuation of the aggregates— The wise should know they are not transferred. Then, as for extremely subtle entities, Those who regard them with nihilism, Lacking precise and thorough knowledge, Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising. In this, there is not a thing to be removed, Nor the slightest thing to be added. It is looking perfectly into reality itself, And when reality is seen, complete liberation. This concludes the verses on ‘The Heart of Dependent Origination’ composed by the teacher Arya Nagarjuna. | Translated by Adam Pearcey, Rigpa Translations, 2008.

^^^ Yes, of course, comprehending the dependent nature of afflictions is the truth of the path I.e dependent origination, which leads to the truth of cessation by way of the fourth noble truth which is the 8-fold noble path. Therefore, confidence in the teachings of dependent origination and the 4 noble truths leads to freedom from the fetters.

What path do you wish to seek? Treading the path is not treading any path at all; unborn and completely illusory, the touch of the keys on the keyboard, this very thought, is the pathless path; the path of no-path, not from self, nor other, without seeking, without turning away: revealing utmost simplicity in this very action without clinging to this ephemeral moment. No reference, no thing to rest on, just this illusory display.

The 'viewless view' is none other than dependent origination, free from views of "is" or "is not", carrying out the path which leads to the cessation of all the myriad views; including itself.

An improved translation of the above excerpt from The String of Pearls Tantra by Loppon Namdrol http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=15528&start=60 As such, the three realms are the five aggregates, the five sense organs, the five limbs, the five functional organs, the five objects, the five afflictions, the five thoughts, the five minds, the five concepts, the apprehended objects and apprehending subjects established as samsara [… ] Caught in the aggregates, sense gates and the sense elements, the apprehended object and apprehending subject, samara itself persists for a long while. One is placed in the dungeon of name and matter in the castle of the three realms, tortured with the barbs of ignorance and so on, oppressed by the thick darkness of samsara, attached to the salty taste of desire, bound by the neck with the noose of confusion, burned with the hot fire of hatred, head covered with pride, setting a rendezvous with the mistress of jealousy, surrounded by the army of enmity... tied by the neck with the noose of subject and object, [29b] stuck in the mud of successive traces and handcuffed with the ripening of karma. Having been joined with the ripening of karma, one takes bodies good and bad, one after another like a water wheel, born into each individual class. Having crossed at the ford of self-grasping, one sinks into the ocean of suffering and one is caught by the heart on the hook of the three lowers realms. One is bound by oneself; the afflictions are the enemy. The body of a hell being appears as fire or water. Pretas are frightened and intimidated. There is a fog-like appearance for animals. The aggregates, sense gates and sense elements of humans appear as the five elements, and also happiness, suffering and indifference. They appear as armor and weapons to asuras and desirable qualities for devas. Such dualistic appearances, for example, are like a quickly moving wheel spinning continuously for a long while. As such, diverse appearances are like seeing a snake from a rope; that [rope] is not [a snake] but is apprehended as a [snake]; forming as both the outer universe and inhabitants. If that is investigated, it is a rope. The universe and inhabitants have always been empty, the ultimate endowed with the form of the relative.

What is the view to cultivate, according to the Buddha, which leads to the 'complete blowing out of craving'? Its described as none other than dependent origination: "He who sees Dependent Origination, sees the Dhamma; he who sees the Dhamma, sees Dependent Origination [MN 28]." Refuge represents confidence in the teachings of dependent origination i.e. the 4 noble truths and 8-fold noble path.

The formulation, “When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.”, represents refuge in the buddhadharma because Buddha's awakening to dependent origination was a result of that insight. It is the quintessence of the buddhadharma which contains the 4 noble truths and 8-fold noble path therein; becoming free of the fetters which bind requires confidence in this.

Really? I feel that the formulation from Buddha, “When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.”, is many times more significant because understanding the dependent nature of afflictions leads to attainment of stream entry.

Vinnanam anidassanam refers to to the nibbana of an arahant while living. The post-mortem destination of an arahants consciousness does not apply, in Hinayana, since all conditions for rebirth in the three realms i.e. samsara, have been eradicated. Please refer to the links in this post for more detailed explanations: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33091-immortal-atman/?p=509673

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.072.than.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove,Anathapindika's monastery. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view 'the cosmos is eternal...'... 'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus entirely dissociated from each of these ten positions?" "Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding. "The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'... "...'the cosmos is finite'... "...'the cosmos is infinite'... "...'the soul & the body are the same'... "...'the soul is one thing and the body another'... "...'after death a Tathagata exists'... "...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'... does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding." "Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading away, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsessions with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released." "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?" "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear." "'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "...both does & does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "...neither does nor does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured." "Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'" "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)." "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling... Any perception... Any fabrication... "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion — divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood — it would stand as pure heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood. "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or were to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.002.than.html ..."What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." "Is feeling constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Is perception constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Is consciousness constant or inconstant? "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." "What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?" "No, lord." "What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" "No, lord." "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" "No, lord." "And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?" "No, lord." "Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."