Simple_Jack

It wasn't directed towards you just following up your post with some quotes. Though, the usage of "space" as an analogy for emptiness, has certain contexts, which in this case means the following: The cognizer perceives the cognizable; Without the cognizable there is no cognition; Therefore why do you not admit That neither object nor subject exists [at all]? The mind is but a mere name; Apart from it's name it exists as nothing; So view consciousness as a mere name; Name too has no intrinsic nature. Either within or likewise without, Or somewhere in between the two, The conquerors have never found the mind; So the mind has the nature of an illusion. The distinctions of colors and shapes, Or that of object and subject, Of male, female and the neuter - The mind has no such fixed forms. In brief the Buddhas have never seen Nor will they ever see [such a mind]; So how can they see it as intrinsic nature That which is devoid of intrinsic nature? "Entity" is a conceptualization; Absence of conceptualization is emptiness; Where conceptualization occurs, How can there be emptiness? The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver, This the Tathagatas have never seen; Where there is the perceived and perceiver, There is no enlightenment. Devoid of characteristics and origination, Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech, Space, awakening mind and enlightenment Posses the characteristics of non-duality. ~ Nagarjuna http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=15368&start=240 Loppon Malcolm: There is no entity "dependent arising", there are only phenomena that arise in dependence. Space, the two cessations and emptiness do not arise at all, so they are by definition phenomena that do not arise in dependence. Of course, this does not mean that they are not relative, for both conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are relative. Since both conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are relative, their relationship is strictly a matter of definition. As for dependently origination phenomena being unconditioned, the Prajñāpāramita states "Whatever arises in dependence, that in truth does not arise". The argument can be made that even so called dependently originated phenomena are unconditioned in reality, since their production cannot be ascertained at all when subjected to ultimate analysis. Again in this respect there is no contradiction between a conventionally conditioned entity having a conventionally unconditioned nature since in reality both are merely conventions. While the former bears the latter as its nature, in reality neither the former nor the latter can stand up to ultimate analysis. In other words there are no phenomena at all that can stand up to ultimate analysis... ...space, an unconditioned phenomena, permeates all conditioned phenomena, and neither obstructs conditioned phenomena nor is obstructed by them. Emptiness, another unconditioned phenomena, likewise permeates all conditioned phenomena, neither obstructing them nor being obstructed by them. Some people can't handle Tibetan rhetoric, which is why it's inevitable, that these discussions devolve into pissing contests.

Space is also not "truly existent". Nirvana is not truly existent. Read the Heart Sutra again, in case you forgot. ...even uncompounded phenomena — of which Mahāyāna Buddhism recognizes only four: space, the two cessations and emptiness — are not truly existent. ~ Loppon Malcolm

Rainbow body = samyaksambuddhahood. You're not expected to believe in this though it cannot be denied that this is what all Mahayana paths aim for.

These are all just a rehashing of previously rehashed arguments on this board.

It should be understood that these are merely rhetorical devices used to differentiate the views and praxis between various yanas.

Actually this is how karma is defined in Buddhism.

I'm not attempting to speak for him, only pointing out, that the majority of his posts are from a perspective of differentiating the views and praxis of each vehicle, from the POV of each respective vehicle. I know this because I've been following his posts for a while; not for the sole reason of being his fanboy. Although, I totally understand how his posts can be upsetting especially to someone from a sutrayana background.

It should be understood, that the majority of Loppon-la's posts, are meant to differentiate the views and praxis of each vehicle, from the POV of each respective vehicle.

It should be understood, that RongzomFan's statements, are rhetorical devices which differentiate the sutric and tantric POV.

Very true. Someone could also potentially misinterpret that statement to be equivalent to the jhana of infinite space. There is no limit to the possibility for someone to misapprehend various meditational experiences as the "realization of emptiness". According to Buddhism, to even have the opportunity to come across these teachings, requires a lot of merit on the part of the individual. Which is why it's considered tremendously meritorious to have the opportunity to hear, contemplate, meditate on the profound instructions on emptiness as explicated in the sutras, shastras, tantras, etc.

You're asking the wrong person. Ask this on the DW forums.

Belief in reincarnation, is not a prerequisite, to accepting the ethical and practical implications of the state of mind which drives the intention to carry out actions of body, speech, mind; when looked at in this way, karma means action which requires intention. Blind belief in reincarnation does need to be a factor in order to understand the effects of these implications on our practice of meditation, in our daily interactions with our environment, etc.

This is what is generally lacking in Mahayana sutra studies in the English language. Apparently, it's common in Asia for someone to read a sutra along with its commentary. This is not commonly done in the West, since there is a general lack of translated [sutra] commentaries, from past masters of various Mahayana traditions. These arguments are centered around the state of mind of an individual when they are engaged in completion stage practices such as tummo, karmamudra, etc. This has to with the winds and drops, 'very subtle mind' and 'clear light mind', used to realize emptiness; in comparison to an individual who uses a 'coarse mind', of sutrayana methods, to realize emptiness. "Conceptualization" in this context, means that the mind of an individual absorbed in jhana, is not free from clinging to signs and characteristics of real existence. Emptiness is described in the Prajnaparamita Sutras as signless, wishless, markless -- http://books.google.com/books?id=X5WVKneaS-YC&q=signless+and+wishless#v=snippet&q=signless%20and%20wishless&f=false In Buddhism, conceptualization, proliferations, elaborations, etc., are a reference to clinging to signs and characteristics of real existence, in both meditative and post-meditative periods: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4461&hilit=cloudburst&start=40 Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought. When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states: Abiding in the mind without objects has the characteristic of space; that meditation of space is held to be the meditation of emptiness. Nirodha samapatti, is a type of jhana which the Pali commentarial traditions, describe as attainable by both nonreturners and arahants. As far as I know, the suttapitaka does not make an explicit specification, as to whether access to this is limited to the two higher grades of saints. In fact, I haven't come across any specification, in the Pali canon, as to whether this attainment is limited to an ariya puggala, since Buddha did not describe nirodha samapatti as necessary for stream-entry nor as a defining factor for the nibbana of an arahant. Following this implication, this attainment must have also been accessible to the non-ariya sangha.

There's only two options, in the context of "cessation", which yabyum24 was referring to. Of course, he should be the one to elaborate on which one he was referring to. On another note, It's too bad there aren't any actual commentaries, on the "Lankavatara Sutra", that have been translated into or written in English.

FYI, "Hashang Mahayana" is a Tibetan strawman. The Dunhuang cave documents reveal a totally different take on the events and aftermath of that story. Namkhai Nyingpo and Vairotsana, among others, were said to have received teachings on Chan. http://earlytibet.com/about/hashang-mahayana/ Jigmé Lingpa’s insistence on this distinction between the the simultaneist doctrine and the Great Perfection makes the note he attaches to the above passage quite surprising. Stepping outside of the standard model of accusation and rebuttal, he goes on to defend Hashang: You have made the assertion that the view of Hashang[23] was like this, based on refutations such as the similarity of non-mentation to an egg.[24] Yet scriptures such as the Buddhāvataṃsaka were known to Hashang. During the debate, Kamalaśīla asked what was the cause ofsaṃsāra by the symbolic action of whirling his staff around his head. [Hashang] answered that it was the apprehender and apprehended by the symbolic action of shaking his robe out twice.[25] It is undeniable that such a teacher was of the sharpest faculties. If the non-recollection and non-mentation entail the offense of rejecting the wisdom of differentiating analysis, then the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras of the Conqueror also entail this fault. Therefore, what the view of Hashang actually was can be known by a perfect buddha, and no one else.[26] In his defence of Hashang, Jigmé Lingpa had a precedent in the works of Longchenpa. In one section of his Heart of the Threefold Bliss (sDe gsum snying po), Longchenpa writes on the subject of the transcendence of the consequences of positive and negative actions in the context of Great Perfection practice. There is a famous statement attributed to Hashang Mahāyāna on this same subject, that virtue and sin are like black and white clouds, in that both cover up the sun. Rather than distancing himself from this, Longchenpa uses the same metaphor, and then goes on to say: When the great master Hashang said this, those of lesser intellects could not comprehend it, but it was actually the truth.[27] You can read more on Chan in Tibet and the Samye debate in these links: http://earlytibet.com/2007/11/13/tibetan-chan-i-the-emperors-chan/ http://earlytibet.com/2010/03/31/tibetan-chan-iv/ http://earlytibet.com/2011/11/22/tibetan-chan-v/ http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/11/tibetan-buddhist-biographies/ http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3863&hilit=hashang http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3886&p=36060&hilit=hashang#p36060

There are two kinds of "cessation" in Hinayana, one refers to the cessation of apperception and feeling, the other refers to the nibbana of arahants i.e. cessation of ignorance, aggression, craving. You can read these links for more info: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360&start=80 & http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447451.

I think you've missed the point of the critique of jhanic states, from a tantric POV, since the context of "conceptual" does not refer to gross conceptual thoughts, but the contrived factors which comprise each jhana, which are held as the object of meditation, creating contrived states of experience; making them "conceptual". http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704&start=40 All eight dhyanas are conceptual because their object is a concept, therefore, the mind that holds the object is conceptual. It may not be a diffuse conceptual mind, but it is a conceptual mind since it holds a concept, for example, "infinite space". ~ Malcolm

This pretty much sums it up from a tantric POV, yabyum24.

This has already been rehashed several times now. RongzomFan has already posted some other sources on the previous page: http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA58&dq=Center+of+the+Sunlit+Sky+Gampopa+had+perfected+the+view+and+the+meditations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYEIUebJKMqt0AGRsIHABA&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Center%20of%20the%20Sunlit%20Sky%20Gampopa%20had%20perfected%20the%20view%20and%20the%20meditations&f=true "Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system when he came to Milarepa. When Gampopa offered his realization to him, Milarepa said, “As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher realms of samsara. As for the aspect practice of superior insight, all of this entails the danger of divergence into the four deviations from emptiness. It may well serve as a remedy for some portions of reification, such as clinging to real exis- tence. However, since it is not able to cut through the entirety of clinging to extremes, there is the danger that the whole complex of this excellent view and meditation itself could turn into cognitive obscurations. Hence, if one is fettered, there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered by a golden chain.” Later, Gampopa said about this, “If I had not met the great master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/lineage_masters/how_gampopa_reached_spiritual_attainments.html "...When he was about fifteen years old, he studied many Nyingma scriptures and so had tremendous knowledge of the Nyingma tradition."

http://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/the-golden-rosary/gampopa/ "...He also became interested in dharma and started to study in the Nyingma lineage from the master Bar-rey, and in the Kadam tradition with Sharpa Yonten Drak..."

For Mahayana paths. buddhahood is the sole benchmark of complete awakening, which means everything else is lacking in comparison, including the "nirvana" of lower vehicles, which constitutes an extreme. Although, in sutrayana, the criteria of bodhisattvas consists in mastering every type of samadhi/dhyana, along their progress towards buddhahood. In the case of Zen, sudden awakening is emphasized above all else, but gradual cultivation is not completely irrelevant. This is from the thread I linked to above: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=14954&start=60 As for “gradual cultivation,” although he has awakened to the fact that his original nature is no different from that of the buddhas, the beginningless proclivities of habit (vāsanā) are extremely difficult to remove suddenly. Therefore he must continue to cultivate while relying on this awakening so that this efficacy of gradual suffusion is perfected; he constantly nurtures the embryo of sanctity, and after a long, long time he becomes a sage. Hence it is called gradual cultivation. (Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 216-217)

Jhanas are considered conceptual according to nongradual systems. In this case, it requires understanding the context of "conceptual", when being used to refer to jhanas. Maybe Rongzomfan can repost the threads from dharmawheel which explains these contexts in Vajrayana terms.

It possibly means that Gampopa's Mahamudra schema was influenced by his days as a Nyingmapa. Generally, in Vajrayana, jhanas are virtually unimportant to the path of practice. In addition, They are regarded as conceptually contrived states, especially In the nongradual systems, such as Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Chan/Zen. To show that I'm not just making this up, here's something by Malcolm: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=14954 What the Chan/Zen schools have understood, like the Dzogchen and Mahāmudra traditions which followed them, is that buddhahood is not a result accomplished through effort, that afflictions are not something concrete that can be cleansed the same way we wash our clothes (in fact there is nothing to remove), and the cultivation of conditioned states of samadhi/dhyāna lead nowhere than to more conceptuality. I'm not saying that it's unbeneficial to cultivate these states or that an individual won't naturally encounter these states during their career as a cultivator, just that they are unimportant to progress on the path in nongradual systems. Gampopa apparently started out in Nyingma.

Will Ferrel, "Eastbound & Down":