Simple_Jack

No problem, bro...I'm not butthurt (I use this word too lol) at what happened. Though apparently Taoists adopted this practice after it was introduced into China through Buddhism. Maybe I'm a little too opinionated, but I still think that as a means in order to enter meditative absorption, it is the better method. Though it's up to the individual to find out for themselves, if this is true or not. Whatever works for each individual is best. Though you still haven't been able to back up any reasons as to why it is the better method; while I have in 2 different posts backed my reasoning for stating what I claimed.

This is from the appendix of Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation: "...There are also methods of listening to external sound. Any sound may prove to be useful, although listening to flowing water, a waterfall, blowing wind, windchimes or bells, or sutras chanted in a temple, seem to produce the best effects...The dharmaparyaya of Kuan-Yin was to enter the Tao through sound, and this method is puported to be one of the very best...The mind can be settled by concentrating on sound if one can listen without growing sleepy or thinking about something else. If one continues to practice this, eventually one will suddenly enter into a very quiet mental realm where no sounds are heard. Then one attains the state of samadhi and experiences extreme quietness. This is "The tie of quietude" referred to in Buddhist sutras...A person should not long to retain "The tie of quieted." One should realize that "The tie of quietude" is one phenomenon whereas noise is another. Both should be trancended. One should neither hope to leave the noise nor to remain in a state of quietude. It is important to realize the non-birth of the middle way and enter into observation of wisdom...Many people use the ear root dharmaparyaya (i.e. sound,) but very few understand that 'The two phenomenon of movement and stillness do not come into being'...If a person departs from sound and has nothing to do with it at all, he naturally attains samadhi. Of the two phenomena, movement and stillness, samadhi is the quiet phenomenon. Mind and body constitute the phenomenon of motion. If one believes that the quietude of samadhi is the Original Nature, then he is diverted, but if he can go beyond it he enters the gate."

That goes to show that hearing as an entry to Tao, is a very effective method. Though actually any sound can be used to still the mind. An excerpt from Twenty-Five doors to Meditation: "A famous individual who used this technique was the famous Zen monk Han-Shan, who practiced Kuan-Yin's method on a bridge next to a noisy torrent of water. Han-Shan reported that at first the noise of the water was quite audible, but in time it could only be heard when his thoughts arose, and not when they ceased. Then one day his practice improved such that he did not hear the sound of the water any longer; sounds and noises vanished completely." This next part describes the gradual path towards enlightenment using this method, which is taken from the Surangama sutra: "When describing this method in the Surangama Sutra, Kuan-Yin said: I entered into the stream of the self-nature of the sense of hearing, thereby eliminating the sound of what was heard. Now proceeding from this stillness, both sound and silence ceased to arise. Advancing in this way, both hearing and what was heard melted away and vanished. When hearing and what was heard are both forgotten, then the sense of hearing leaves no impression in the mind. When sense and the objects of sense both become empty, then emptiness and sense merge and reach a state of absolute perfection. When emptiness and what is being emptied are both extinguished, then arising and extinction are naturally extinguished. At this point the absolute emptiness of nirvana became manifest, and suddenly I trancended the mundane and supramundane world." "In this method, you listen to and gradually detach from both sound and silence. When there's no sound, we call this silence, and when we conventionally say there is no hearing. But that doesn't mean that the nature of hearing has ceased. It's simply that the function of hearing now recognizes a state of no sound, or silence. Since the nature of hearing can ascertain the state of sound or no sound, it's easy to use this method to realize the nature of duality and then detach from both existence and non-existence. That's the method of practice."

This is beautiful, Fiveelementtao. What you have described reminds me of these quotes from Shakyamuni buddha: "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent; subject to decay and disintegration. Work out your own salvations with diligence. This is the last teaching of the Tathagata [buddha.]" Which was said to be given on the day of his "death." And this one from the Diamond sutra: "All phenomena are like A dream, an illusion, a bubble and a shadow Like a dew drop and a flash of lightning Thus you should view them." You should investigate the nature of this dream further.

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Actually in Buddhism, "Buddhist enlightenment," is only completing one aspect of the path towards buddhahood. Buddhism talks of attaining three "buddha-bodies;" the dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya. The "perfect rupakaya," is the attainment of both the sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya (yang shen in Taoist terms,) that is only achieved if someone has completely transformed this body of the five elements. The three pure one's in Taoism correspond to the three "buddha-bodies" in Buddhism (the former was influenced by the latter, after this classification was introduced into China.) This article here from meditationexpert.com explains in more detail: My link. An excerpt from that article: "As to the perfect reward body, the rupakaya, this is the result of one's cultivation work and is very difficult to achieve. I mentioned before the thirty-two marks of a Buddha and the eighty detailed physical characteristics. The body of anyone who has succeeded in cultivation, attained the Tao, has undergone a complete physical transformation. This physical body is the reward body. Why is it called the "reward body"? Actually, everyone's body is a "reward body." If throughout one's life one is very comfortable and fortunate, this is the reward of previous virtue. Others may experience a lot of pain and suffering and lead a very pitiful life. Their body is the result of non-virtuous actions in a previous life. Through cultivation work, we transform this karmic reward body. In the Taoist school, they describe the process as getting rid of illness to lengthen one's life and achieving immortality. This is talking about transforming the reward body. Achieving the perfect reward body is gaining complete liberation, changing mortal bones into immortal bones and gaining every kind of super power. This is extremely difficult to achieve. The perfect reward body is very difficult to cultivate. The Taoist cultivation, opening qi mai, as well as Esoteric cultivation, opening the three channels and seven chakras, both start from the reward body. Samatha and samapatti (stopping and introspection), the Pure Land practice of reciting the Buddha's name and vipassana meditation are all examples of practices which mainly cultivate the dharmakaya. When one cultivates to the point where he or she has at will another body outside of this physical body, this is the sambogakaya or transformation body functioning. This is a very basic overview of the three bodies. The average person who practices Buddhist or Taoist cultivation works on the dharmakaya. The Esoteric school emphasizes the achievement of the three bodies because only when one achieves the three kayas has one successfully completed the Path. This is also called completion in one lifetime. "In one lifetime," means in this one lifetime to settle the question of life and death, to succeed at achieving the three bodies. In theory, this can be done, but in actuality, it is of the utmost difficulty. One must achieve perfection of vinaya (discipline), samadhi and wisdom as well as completely transform this physical body of four elements born of one's parents. Only this can be called completion in one lifetime."

Then try to describe this to me the best way you can: What has your teacher taught you about this "void?" What is your experience of this "void?" How is it outside the experience of consciousness?

It also doesn't cause an even worse clinging or attachment to the body; which is why it the better method in the end. This is what Scotty isn't able to understand. Most of the practitioners of "Taoist alchemy" can't wrap their heads around this crucial point.

Well anything can be used as cessation-contemplation practice. Just that it means cessation of thoughts where you then contemplate this state i.e "investigate" "who" or "what" is ultimately experiencing this state. The goal though is samadhi (or samadhi/prajna.) I also recommend this book by Lu Kuan Yu: The Secrets of Chinese Meditation: Self-Cultivation by Mind Control As Taught in the Ch'An, Mahayana and Taoist Schools in China from amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Chinese-Meditation-Self-Cultivation-Mahayana/dp/0877280665/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315006876&sr=1-1.) Not even 11 bucks. EDIT: I also recommend 25 Doors to Meditation: A Handbook for Entering Samadhi by William Bodri from amazon.com. It details 25 different meditations you can choose from to get started.

Fine whatever, brah; but I don't think you know what the usage of "void" really entails. With the way you're using it sound's like you don't actually know the actual experience of emptiness. Sounds like you're headed to attachment to one of the formless jhana states. In order to reach dhyana requires a lot of physical transformation of the body. Past the completion stage of Tibetan Buddhism, past kundalini activation, past micro/macro cosmic orbits, past the initial opening of the chakras. It really is not easy in order to reach these states. It's not just a state of mental reflection of these realms.

What that article is pointing to is a more advanced stage when the external breathing stops altogther what's called Hsi in Taoism or what's called embryonic breathing. This is after you have already transformed the body to a degree. Though what you're talking about is a common occurrence in the initial stages; it's the beginning of transmutation of jing to chi (so don't be alarmed. Just let it be.) Jing, chi, and shen can be compared to Esoteric Buddhism's bliss, clarity, and no-thought. You should really look into buying Tao&Longevity since he explains pretty well the effect of cultivating stillness, has on the mind/body (though more emphasis is on the body in general.) Since chi and consciousness are linked when thoughts die down your body's real chi is activated. Likewise in anapana practice you might notice your breathing getting gradually finer, thoughts start to calm down and sometimes you'll notice your breathing stopping for a few seconds or whatever (which is usually accompanied by a cessation of thoughts.) This is showing the transmutation of jing, chi, shen. During these periods you might want to switch over to insight or "contemplation" or self-inquiry (like "Who am I.") in order to determine "who" or "what" has stopped. Practicing pranayama can help to clear dirty chi/impurities in the body and open the chi channels. Pranayama really helps to gradually increase that period where your breathing stops (because pranayama is a quick way to transform the body's "wind" element.) An article on how to practice the 9 bottled wind pranayama of Tibetan Buddhism from meditationexpert.com: My link. You should definitely check out his stuff in the "Meditation section." EDIT: Again I recommend you read some of those articles off of meditationexpert. Shramana Zhiyi's books will really help to figure this all out (Six Dharma Gates to The Sublime and The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation http://www.amazon.com/Six-Dharma-Gates-Sublime/dp/1935413015/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1315005122&sr=8-3.)

Well, moderation of how much you have sex and/or masturbate is key to constant progress (especially in the "100 days" phase of initial transmutation of jing to chi.) You definitely don't want to ejaculate too much. Though if you want something that is not destructive like the stuff that Mantak Chia teaches then I would start with Dr. Lin's stuff. Also, this might interest you, it's on the use of sex to help transform the body in Tantra, it's a really long article from meditationexpert.com: My link

"But I rather think that one's been sold off already" My dreams of owning my own chain of restaurants and being a millionaire are crushed! Lol. You're totally right about the rest though...We're headed down a a dangerous road; we're definitely fucking shit up for ourselves at an ever increasing rate. It's sad really. I mean it's bad enough we're eating factory farmed meat and GMO produce; I wonder what the health of the populace is going to be like in the decade to come, if this lab meat starts to replace "real" meat.

Mantra (or Tantra) is an excellent means in order to reach cessation (which you should then follow up with contemplation.) Which is why I suggested Everything look at meditationexpert, where he lists some meditations dealing with that. There's no problem in practicing more than one meditation, in fact on his site he suggests picking at least 2 to start with. Everything: On amazon.com, there's two meditation manuals by Shramana Zhiyi of the Tien Tai sect. They are excellent and give detailed practice instructions on cessation-contemplation and anapana.

If you mean as in deity yoga for example (where you focus on a particular chakra or series of chakras) then yeah I agree; but those meditations entail visualization which in the end you're supposed let go of, in order to cultivate "emptiness," to reach samadhi. Anapana (in the lowest levels) starts with focusing on the breath as it comes in and out of the nostrils, but (when you progress to that point) when you reach a point where (this is past the stages where you have already opened the major/minor channels and chakras and after kundalini activation) your body fills with chi and then you can let go completely (letting go or forgetting about the body i.e. the clinging to the body; since you're nearing the physical bliss and joy of the first dhyana) and enter into the first dhyana. So in that way it is a much superior meditation compared to focusing solely on the dan-tien. Edit: Keep in mind this is after the state of hsi, or internal embryonic breathing; in which the external breathing through the nostrils has stopped.

The parts that I'm highlighting are what you should get an idea of the different stages to anapana practice: "After these preliminary twelve stages, the Anapanasati Sutra talks about 5 more stages of cultivation that you should be cultivating all the time. You have to do these no matter what stage you're practicing at, so they're not in chronological order. These five -- anytime, everywhere you should be practicing them -- do not belong to the body level but to the mind level where you are inspecting the mind: The 12th principle reminds you to let go of everything, which is releasing everything, 13) you practice observing impermanence, 14) you feel more and more of sense of growing separation or distance from what you desire (departure of desire - don't drop into what you're doing, like watching TV, sex, food, desires) which people typically translate as "dispassion," 15) the stopping or cessation or extinguishment of feeling and thought. In contemplating cessation, the meaning is that you reach a stage where sensation (feeling) and conception are extinguished. There are no more illusions, desires, or sensations. The mind is perfectly clear and without stains, equanimous beyond compare which gives freedom,peace and liberation. This is the status of a Great Arhat. Next 16) totally offering - - giving away mind, life, thought -- totally giving offering is the next principle. Shakyamuni Buddha meant that you offer everything away, completely letting go and relinquishing everything. That in itself is a form of Christian cultivation called charity or poverty or renunciation. Together with these 5, which you should be practicing all the time, then you can arrive at a stage of clear perception where all the dust in the mind is delinked or settled, and the true real permanence aspect of the universe (Triple Realm) suddenly appears. Congratulations. At this stage you're really on your way to a fine achievement." Anyways in the articles I'm quoting from, he links to a page of the Anapanasati Sutta w/ commentary by Ven. Vimalaramsi (Main page w/chapters My link. For the actual start of the sutta: My link.) If you really want to get started with this technique then that's something you should read.

Just more descriptions of stages of more advanced transformations of the body: "If your practice enters the stage of cultivating the second type of chi, you can not only initiate the internal embryo breathing but can start breathing from the bottom of the feet, the forehead, and other places in the body because the chakras and chi channels have all opened and the chi circulates at these spots. First it will push out all sorts of dirty poisons from these spots, like snakes or worms that wiggle out of holes, but when the chi channels are cleared you'll be able to breath from these chakra points and might even develop red circles or slight indentations in the region. Often you see them on pictures of various spiritual masters. If you're looking for a tantric partner and they don't have this, forget it.....But this is just laying a good foundation for practice, and is not the real fruit of cultivation. You want to not just cultivate samadhi, but cultivate to discover the original nature of Mind and all things....For that you must proceed to cultivating the third type of chi. Otherwise you are still cultivating the in and out, birth and death,the rise and fall of phenomena. If you relax and unify with the chi, it becomes just one thing rather than a duality of states." "Now eventually in watching the breath and feeling it everywhere, you'll reach a state of emptiness which is the sixth stage of practice, and from that emptiness, your body will begin to feel peaceful and you'll develop joy and physical bliss. This means you are cultivating the early dhyana. In the 6th stage you can receive joy and in the 7th receive bliss. In the 8th you can reflect everything in your mind - you are able to clearly know about every response that your mind has...these are the 6th, 7th and 8th stages of gong-fu reached because you're not influenced by the physical body anymore since its chi channels are open. Resultingly, you can now accept or receive mental joy and physical bliss because the physical body doesn't bother you so much, so you can be open to receiving happiness. To others your face will always seem joyful. And then eventually your mind will be able to accept every single behavior of others. You'll be able to have mercy come out towards all things because you can accept everything, and not reject anything. Mercy, compassion, and feeling other people's suffering arises at this stage at a real level that you should want to cultivate. Only now, at this stage, do we say you can sincerely give or offer to other sentient beings, so only now can full-hearted giving manifest. The 6th, 7th and 8th level of practice is when you are therefore starting to enter the level of the mind ground." "Eventually, in cultivating the chi then joy and bliss will arise, and then you can eventually feel liberated or mentally free. What Buddha meant about these stages is that in cultivating to the stage of no more chi obstructions in the body, the form skandha and sensation skandhas are transformed. When the mind is joyful it's like the 1st and 2nd dhyana because they have the characteristic of mental joy, and when just blissful it's like the 3rd dhyana. Joy and bliss arise because you are cultivating samadhi (they are the characteristics of the first three dhyana), and with this type of joy and bliss you always look happy to other people because your mind is open and free. Eventually by going further you reach the stage of feeling liberated, which means that you are always clear about what goes on in your mind. Your mind is like a mirror and is very peaceful, so you are clear about everything because you are not holding. When the mind feels liberated and free, we often say that "mind and chi are at home." "In the 9th stage of anapana practice, the mind is able to function with joy and happiness at will, and in the 10th stage your mind is able to calmly reflect everything. During the 9th and 10th stage of anapana practice you reach the second and third dhyana if you can actually achieve this stage. In the 11th stage, the mind is able to be free from attachment, or liberated. What does that mean? Your mind (thoughts, or consciousness) and chi become unified and you have real mental freedom. They combine without any concentration or holding. It's naturally unified. During this stage you get superpowers freely. The feeling is one of freedom from any attachments. Do you see anything special or esoteric in this? No, nothing. Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings are so natural, and also so scientific. He tried so many cultivation methods and gave us the very cream, the very top of the top of the cultivation techniques which are even the highest apex secrets of the Zen school and Mahamudra."

There are sixteen stages to this meditation (described here from wikipedia My link.) Here's a description (From this article My link) of what's possible with this meditation from meditationexpert.com: "The basic technique of watching the breath revealed in the Damo Zen Anapanasati Sutra starts with watching your inhalation, exhalation, and then the longness or shortness of your breath. You observe them because your chi channels are not yet open. You just relax and observe them ... be aware while in a supremely relaxed state to know what's going on. Then the fourth stage is knowing or observing the breath (your chi) throughout your whole body. You don't try to do anything with it, such as smoothen it out, but just know it or be conscious of it" "If there are any obstructions of the chi anywhere in the body, that's because your chi channels have still not opened all the way through and the body's five elements have not fully transformed. It's a long process for this to reach completion. When you feel your breath (chi) all over your body and cultivate that knowing, there will eventually be no more obstructions in the body when you keep cultivating this way, which is the fifth step of the practice ... and you will eventually feel quite comfortable from the practice after all the chi channels open." "Secondly, people get confused about the three types of chi you can cultivate this way. Let me go into this... The first type of chi, called the "nurturing chi," is what you rely on to be alive. When we practice pranayama, we usually practice this type of chi. You can find out more about this and other types of chi in the Peter Senge-Nan Huai-Chin Anapana Chi Conversations, which are truly excellent. If you can stop your breathing, you can enter into the cultivation of the second type of chi. The second type of chi, called the "reward chi" in the Damo Zen Sutra and "karmic" chi in Esoteric Buddhism, is the chi that arises when ordinary breathing stops. This "hsi," (Xi) if you cultivate it, is what a fetus uses to grow inside a mother's womb (when external breathing is not required) and when you cultivate it after birth, you can use it to cure sickness, extend the lifespan and stay healthy. If you are able to recognize and cultivate this level of chi, you can have longevity and can reverse the process of aging and will become young. Forget the anti-aging supplements -- this is far better. You can cultivate that chi to get samadhi but it's not the highest stage possible. However, this is the chi you should be cultivating if you want to reverse aging, or if you are fatigued and wish to rejuvenate yourself." "The third type of chi is called "fundamental" (from Consciousness Only school) or "original" or "primordial" chi. Sometimes it's called "original heaven chi." Taoism talks about this chi, as does Buddhism and Hinduism. If you are able to enter into the cultivation of this type of chi, you can control your birth and death. So when you enter the cultivation of the second type of chi you can become like a baby whereas entering into the cultivation of this third type of chi you can eventually control life and death. This is the stage you want to get to because it corresponds to becoming one with the universe and the original nature. To reach the stage of cultivating this chi is a great accomplishment and all you have to do is practice as I've been teaching you....This third chi is akin to the chi of the whole universe "An Arhat who cultivates this chi can appear or disappear (dissolve) at will into this type of chi, and thus can control their birth and death that way. To cultivate this chi, you really need to cultivate wisdom. People without enough prajna wisdom will have a difficult time recognizing this chi. They can talk about it all they want but of it they will know nothing. So to get to this stage already takes cultivation practice and letting go, letting go, letting go while remaining aware[/i]."

Whatever, guy. Either way it's still an inferior meditation compared to anapana (mindfulness of the breath.) Also In the end you're clinging too much to the body.

As for meditation techniques there are a lot of different techniques you can use to get started. There's anapana, vipassana, listening to sound, you can use tantra/deity yoga....it depends what you want to start with. I suggest going to meditationexpert.com and looking in the "Meditation Techniques" section (My link.) Also you might want to purchase his e-books on the skeleton visualization practice and meditation on the 5 elements. The first is a simple method that is really effective at cultivating the body's chi; the latter (called the kasinas in Hinayana) are set of meditations that also uses visualization as a means to transform the body and enter samadhi (My link and My link.) I also suggest buying a copy of Tao&Longevity by Nan Huai Chin. It details the different stages of cultivating jing to chi and chi to shen and the opening of the major esoteric structures in the body. In the appendix it also describes different meditations you can try out.

He's kinda right. I read the article, and that last paragraph describes an inferior technique if you really want significant transformation on the mind/body. Though breathing into the dan-tien is taught in Zen and Vajrayana (as a precursor to tummo) in order to initially help calm the mind for meditation. It shouldn't be the main focus of an individuals session and really doesn't have much use other than to initially help calm the mind.

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Well I know that they are experimenting with growing human tissue in a lab at the moment, but cloning people for replacement parts...that would be fucked up. There was a movie that came out in theaters dealing with that topic (which was based off a book.) Though do you mean that they would clone individual human body parts based off of an individuals cells? As for cloning celebrity body parts...If that was ever available, I would be the first in line for a cosmetic surgery replacing my cock with say Brad Pitt's. I could then say me and Brad Pitt have the same penis. Ohhh, I could then use that as a way to lure women into having sex with me..."Hey, , would you like to know what it's like having Brad Pitt's penis inside of you? I've been surgically implanted with a cloned copy of his penis."

Sounds questionable. I would be wary of the long term effects on the body....I just couldn't trust it right away. On the flipside: At least this isn't some Soylent Green shit. Thank god we haven't reached that point yet (Soylent Green is Peooooooopllleeeee!!)

Also these quotes: "This enables us to see the ironic and amusing side of events that usually irritate us. In meditation, we can see through the illusions of past, present and future ~ our experience becomes the continuity of nowness. The past is only an unreliable memory held in the present. The future is only a projection of our present conceptions. The present itself vanishes as soon as we try to grasp it." "So why bother with attempting to establish or maintain the illusion of solid ground? We should free ourselves from past memories and preconceptions of meditation." Remind me of stanza 21 from the Hua Hu Ching: "Each moment is fragile and fleeting. The moment of the past cannot be kept, however beautiful. The moment of the present cannot be held, however enjoyable. The moment of the future cannot be caught, however desirable. But the mind is desperate to fix the river in place: Possessed by ideas of the past, preoccupied with images of the future, it overlooks the plain truth of the moment. The one who can dissolve her mind will suddenly discover the Tao at her feet, and clarity at hand." Who say's that at the highest levels, there aren't similarities between Taoism and Buddhism?