d'avid

Interesting compilation. Thank you for the contribution. And what is that "Tibetan Incense (made in Nepalese monasteries)" called in trade? Do you have a source you can recommend (to buy from as a residential of Europe)?

Of course there is a christian yoga. As such I would define various western mystery traditions. They are not as widely known as eastern ways as they are often protected by secrecy. I dare to say that the western methods are often more adjusted to the constitution of the western mind and body, so that the problem of spiritual bypassing is of a different kind with eastern than with western tradition. One thing that I observed more than once with buddhism-orientated westerners is a repudiative attitude towards their emotions and desires that are qualified as disturbing. It's just the methods that are different, in respect of the different starting points, the different imprints and circumstances of the personality of the aspirant - the truth is finally the same. Sane occultism by Dion Fortune is a read I can recommend. It can be found in the internet for free. However, I don't believe a real path of whatever way to liberation is possible without going through crisis in which the definition of "fundamental psychological needs" is put in question.

my few cents, getting back to the original question and ignoring the other contributions in this thread: Why do you want to lose desire? Life (I don't mind if you prefer to call it god or tao) brings itself into manifestation and self-experience by desire. Desire is its very nature. What might trouble you is not desire per se but your conceptions of it. Or desires that are distorted, aberrations from your original desires that brought your higher soul into the play on earth. If you refuse to accept your desires as an essential part of your self, they will find expression in other forms that aren't likely to be beneficial. If you have no desire, what makes you move and take directions, decisions, responsability in life? How can life refine and perfect itself in humanity if not motivated by real desires? I do think spiritual progress is about drilling through the layers of personality and breaking through to one's true desire nature, one's true will, thereby getting rid of "wrong" or lower desires by replacing or subordinating them with superior and stronger ones. Realization may come easier by going after those desires at hand than by refusing to take action and risiking having an unpleasant harvest. We have to harvest but not necessarily to eat what we harvest. Maybe some desires will be transmuted by just fulfilling them in one's thoughts. If you have not thirst for something better / "more desirable" than what you are / have right now, you won't get very far in whatever undertaking. If you lose your desire you lose your life. Don't close the gates for the liquids of life.

I am glad this subject is brought up and hope for contributions of people that know more than I do. I have wondered about the hidden (after) effects of sexual intercourse several times but have had no interest to find out more about it by irreversible practice. I only had "penetrating" sex with one lady with which I had a longterm relationship, but stopped more than once when I was about to have the opportunity for sex with other girls. Something warned me against the consequences. When I realized that these girls were not really interested in entering a conscious lasting connection or knowing / feeling my soul, lust disappeared. After separation from the woman I was sexually intimate with I observed that it took about more than half a year from the last sexual contact with semen loss until I stopped feeling her (often accompanied by sensations of her body) in my daily life. About 6 years later a healer removed an energy blockage that had a cause in a sexual contact with her... I have also observed by feeling at different occasions how especially girls, but also boys had part of the subconcious stream from the mind of their sexual partner active in them. A clearvoyant friend once described me the aura of a guy that I knew to by sex-addicted with often changing partners. It was not round, but having kind of wild extensions in several directions. I heard different things as fas as the period of this influence is concerned. Some told me it would last at least half a year, some say it will be there during the full incarnation. Unfortunately I don't know for sure. I feel certain that a subconcious exchange (emotional or astral influence) is going on for a longer period between partners that had sexual intercourse. That the subconcious emotions are often sources of troubles, may be one reason that (some) monks refrain from sex. Another might be that (imho) it's the power in real desire that brings fruits, also towards enlightment, so desire has to be freed from the auto-suggestions of the lower vital soul to serve the higher soul's purpose. I don't think the link was a problem if it was a link to the (higher) spirit - it is a source of trouble because it influences the lower parts of the structure that are detuned to the higher aspects of one's being. Another question I neither can answer: Is this ongoing connection between individuals that had sex established through penetration (of the penis entering the vagina) or through the sacrifice of the liquids / semen?

thanks @starhawk for pointing out how a broken heart prepares the road to real love. Tulku seems to know a lot of things, but he seems to forget, that enlightenment ... Well I think I leave all those smart words to others as discussions and being right won't enlighten me. Still I dare to add: It's the same force causing downfall and ascension. Is there a key to the realisation of the divine omnipresence in judging with pairs of opposites?

to me you seem to compare with exoteric religion only. From what I know from the esoteric tradition of the West, the development of the mind is considered important so that it's erroneous beliefs about the nature of reality can be corrected and so that its powers that are at work anyway can be used to create more "mindful" circumstances and conditions for life to express itself. Sometimes it seems to happen in some Eastern traditions that the personality and the subconcious structure of the aspirant are just bypassed rather than transformed. Discrimination is key to understand the unity behind all seeming separation. I don't think that we know enough to make a useful comparison. Someone here in the forum declared the Western way to be the way of the fire and the Eastern way to be the way of the water. Why are such statements made? Such as all general statements should be carefully examined before being seeded into one's subconciousness.

Jesus was rather into Western traditions:-) There seems to be a plentitude of approaches in the West and in the East, so comparisons are based on generalisations. I don't think it justs boil down to mysticism versus magic. I guess in both hemispheres there is specific tendencies of the lower personality to (appearantly) thwart (or foster) the unfoldment of the real self, f.ex. by inflation or denial of the lower desires. I believe that in the West the genuine mystery traditions have been kept secret most of the time which protected them to some degree against misuse and misinterpretation which still took place. However I know only little about the Western traditions and still much less about the Eastern. So I cannot really compare. I know that the later influenced the former much. I don't think much should be said about the core of teachings on behalf of those beginning aspirants that are most conspicous due to their imbalances. I think first of all the self wants to clear one from what disturbs one's balance and therefore those complexes connected with the emotional wounds and traumas of the past may be stimulated / triggered which can take years to get through. That's what I observe with myself, that the intensity of such subconcious patterns overlaid my trials to move consistently on a coherent so called "occult" path. Israel Regardie wrote interestingly about such and Jung did as well. In some writings Paul Foster Case mentioned that there is a difference in regards to the order of the elements in Western and Eastern methods that appear to be contradictory but can/will be reconciled from a higher perspective as just describing different angles. @Hundun - if you like to share something of your experiences with David Allen Hulse, I was an interested listener. I was also interested in reading an interview with him. Maybe you have a good link at hand? I bought a book from him. I didn't understand much but I got a glimpse of his conciousness by watching his picture and was fascinated. Feel free to correct me concerning content or language (English being my 3rd language only).

Hi Non, Eastern practices that take care of the energyflow of your body-system can still be pursuited when discovering a Hermetic mindset. Bardon's system is not without doubt, some things were transmitted encrypted and some others can really lead you astray. I can recommend you to have a look at the B.O.T.A.-Tarot and the works of Paul Foster Case, maybe by starting with these books: http://www.bookdepos...e/9780978053512 (is also showing a bridge to other alchemical traditions) http://www.bookdepos...e/9780981897721 I do believe that one can get quite far with Tarot-Meditations without having to join a lodge. This kind of work involves magic too, but goes straight to recognition of the One Self and puts you more and more in touch with your inner teacher, your true self. Israel Regardie who broke his oath to publish the Golden Dawn material wanted every aspirant of a new fraternity to dedicate himself to psychoanalysis too, as he has seen some not so nice developments. If more energy is flowing down from the tree of life in your vessel, your subconcious patterns will be accented / strenghtened too (until you do something to change these patterns which present themselves woven into your reality) - the illusions (or neuroses) might first become stronger. Maybe the public Eastern ways of (body / energy) cultivation are safer. All the Best on your path, David

I would not be surprised if some great masters choose (or are chosen) to live in big cities, because their consciousness and "aura" will positively affect the evolution of much more lives there. Without getting to know them.

I do think desire matters. buddhists sometimes forget that all manifested life was brought in existence by a kind of universal longing. However siddhis are not so desirable / so helpful to remove one's pain from not being one's true self. If one's hidden agenda is to re-unify with one's origine, there needs to be a bait for the fish, but it's the fisherman that enjoys the meal.

@seth ananda: so do you recommend the 5 basic exercices from your own experience? or would you advise that one's psychic energy might be sucked in a detrimental group psyche by doing the visualisation part of them? If I was a coldhearted strategist in the communist party, maybe I would pay some people money to behave fanatically about the movement I want to damage, so that it will be discredited in most people's eyes.

Dear friends of awakening, I am looking for the qigong methods / system that support me in achieving enlightment and getting my vehicle to work on a higher level while being able to live, learn and make my living in the western world. First of all a few words to my background (my question follows at the end): I haven't yet practiced more than a few bits of QiGong but feel the strong will and necessity to conciously move energy in my body. I studied a western mystery tradition teaching for some time now that does a good job helping to remember how things are and that works with visualisation and meditations (qabalistic stuff, also using tarot motives to work with in imagination). I am basically happy with these technics and although I neglected them a bit for some time I don't want to skip them. They work "indirectly" upon the centers by containing mixtures of balancing elements - no concentration is done directly upon the centers. I understand that this a responsible, maybe bit slower but safe path to enlightement. However some of these exercices "liberate" "libido energy" and fire me up so that I have to deal with those energies that manifest in the physical body. The teachings I was studying recommend not to experiment with breathing technics as they could lead to mindblowing / disintegrating states or imbalances that coulnd't be corrected without the assistance of a clearvoyant more advanced being (master). Whereas that might be good advice for balanced people, I feel if I do not cultivate my breathing, if I do not learn how to conciously direct the mobilized raw energies (that also build up from not ejaculating which is a choice already set) I am worried of getting into heavy congestions (especially around the solar plexus) or loosing myself in sensual overindulgence which won't lead me to liberation. However don't get me wrong, I like the sexual energy and know about it's power. Maybe it's because of closed channels / pathways in my bodysystem that I cannot yet positively harness it. So that's how I got interested in parallelly doing some qigong or something similar. Now I am evaluating which way to take. I am a physically healthy, male, single, 32 years old, living in Switzerland. My body isn't trained in particular, but I basically observe a healthy vegetarian almost vegan diet for a long time and didn't need a doctor for about a dozen years now. I experienced cosmic conciousness for a few moments in life, so I know what it tastes like, but probably due to a body not prepared for it and contradicting subconcious patterns from the past, I lost it and feel far enough away from it these days. Of course I now can't be satisfied easily and have no other choice than regaining it. I had a look at a few offers of qigong courses offered in this country but didn't feel the pulling to join one, also observed myself doubting the degree of realization of the so called masters or teachers. I woulnd't mind to pay for a seminar (as long as it's reasonably priced) but whatever I can learn has to be integreated in my own life by my own efforts so as long as they are teaching basic movements I was thinking I could learn them from book / dvd as well. I got a few, as f.ex. Master Liang & Wu: Qigong Empowerment, Ratziel Bander: Hsin Tao or Lu K'uan yü (Charles Luk): Taoist Yoga - Alchemy & Immortality, some of Mantak Chia (I just don't manageto trust him as I don't envy him for his conciousness and as he promotes orgasms) or Daniel Reids: The Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity. Although there is useful stuff in it, I still expected to find something better for me. After reading several threats in this forum I got interested in Spring Forest QiGong and Kunlun Nei Gung which might be helpful as it seems to work "downwards" whereas the fire works upwards anyway. I visited a few websites from Max Christensen and was a little disappointed as there was many nice pictures but not much about the technics. The link to the list with the certified teachers didn't work and the presented book is not available. At one place I read: I was looking for seminars (there were some in Europe I guess 2-3 years ago) but there is none. So what is the steps to learn about it and give it a try? For somebody not living in the US? On http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/ I read: So do I have to expect those practices to interfere with methods of western occultism (similar to golden dawn) although they don't deal with the body directly (but insist on the body being the mean / instrument of the alchemical process)? A member here (I think it was little1, a Mantak Chia Tao Yoga practitioner) once stated that western occultism was the path of fire or ether whereas qigong was the one of water - can such be said in general? Isn't the sexual energy fire and water? Has a choice to be made after reaching a certain stage between Eastern or Western way of aspiration? I understand that the subconcious cannot effectively work if fed with (seemingly) contradicting systems / symbols but I cannot leave my body alone when I feel the urge to correct and direct energy. Thanks for contributions to further insight.

thank you, Trunk. For me a forum can also be about discussions, explanations and chitchat. I don't see an intrigue in this topic here and an end to it as well. Anyway, thank you again for sharing.

I fully agree. freeform wrote in this thread:

thank you for the hint. I have read that the red phoenix practice is published on the forum. However I am not yet there. Searching for German Kunlun facilitators I just experienced a kind of irritation, one guy is not only offering Kunlun Neigong in the lineage of Max Christensen but also a pickup workshop (seducing ladies with NLP): http://www.seros.de/nlp-shop,nlp-verfuehrung-seminare.php/NLP-Verfuehrung-Pickup-Master-Muenchen http://www.seros.de/nlp-shop,nlp-verfuehrung-seminare.php/Kunlun-Nei-Gong-Neikung-Muenchen-Workshop-Christensen-Muenchen It's all about the intention, isn't it:-)

Thank you for posting this. I like this guy and his messages from the beginning (when I stumbled upon http://www.naturalmeditation.net/Design/nmdocument.html a few years ago), although I consider it very difficult to renounce from will as it is often expressed by his follower(s), especially for a western mind. It's probably rather about merging ones will by understanding it as a part of the ONE will it ever was.

I do cordly thank you for the explanation. Of course everything presented in a forum has to be taken with a grain of salt before trying / inquiring one self. I had a google search for kunlun neigong / neigung for .de sites and a few came up. However I ask myself whether the energytransmission really makes that difference to learn it in a seminar compared to learn it from the book I ordered. I am pretty choosy from whom to take in energy. Is there a facilitator in Germany that you'd recommend in particular? Thanks again, David

Thanks for your recommendation. By the way, I ordered this book as well today.

Hey, that's an important note I would say. I didn't realize this. From kunlunbliss.com Hoping nothing in the book which I just ordered (in French) would lead to less oxygen in my blood (but still sweating:-)

good ideas, thanks. I searched the forum and if wudangquan is right (and he wrote to have tested the technics himself a few thousand times: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/6763-the-max-christensen-facts-not-fiction-thread/page__view__findpost__p__78358), this method is cutting off the oxygen flow to my brain. I don't think such is a good thing to do. Probably effectful, as are psychedelia, but not the wise way to grow a brain I guess. The statement on primordialalchemist.com is opposite: There is more informations about the method than I thought / said there was on Max Christensen's websites. F.ex. under the title "what to expect" That sounds good to me, but actually a little confusing for an advertised water-path. I didn't find any certified teacher in the region of Geneva by the way.

@Seth Ananda: Examples? And is their contributions because they were gay? Or maybe because they weren't absorbed by a lady's psyche / family and stuff? Anyway, I don't want to depreciate them.

To all of you my many thanks for your contributions. @sundoteacher: I have heard good things about falun dafa from other people too. But there is the same warning not to mix it with other methods in order not to interrupt the specific qi flow. @electric_gravity: As I don't know yet much more about Kunlun, I am not sure what you mean by rolling the ball (but having a few ideas what you could mean). Concretization was welcome. @leif: yes, I found one in the meantime in Germany. Yes there was 3 remaing exemplars of the french book on amazon yesterday. I know french and maybe I buy it (although I prefer to read books in the language they were brought down to the lingual mind). @jetsun: I am a beginner to traditions in energy-body-work but not a beginner to increased energy flow in the body so I would dare starting with something more intense. You wrote "but I wouldn't mix it with many other energy methods, meditation is fine but not energetic fire methods". Well the symbols I meditate with are having a rather direct effect on the body although without direct concentration on it and a rather balanced one (affecting all centers). I am not sure whether to classify them as fiery or watery, but compared to my state before I started them, there is definitevly more fire going on. I will see that I can read the book of B. K. Frantzis, I already considered that read and thanks to your hint I know now that there is really something in it for me. @de_paradise: thanks for sharing. Concerning gurus and imposing systems I feel the same, final sovereignity won't be won by identifiyng with a certain path. Kunlun made an interesting impression on me, but the commercial presentation and the fact that the kunlun-website talks much more about Max and Kan and their greatness than the technics and effects rather alarmed me first. It's indeed some mental work to separate cult-/tradition-associations from the neutral tools, so that I keep the freedom to in-vent my self rather than adding another appearance-identiy or the one of somebody else to my program. @thelerner: Thank you for the hint and for recognizing that I am looking for something that I could follow for longterm. I had a look at Bardon some time ago (read his novel and in the other books, without practicing) and I did also listen to Ron Clark (the bardoncompanion). This stuff is not for me, at least not currently. I am also not sure whether the system is 100% correct (I am not competent enough to discuss such though, no flaming/blaming intended). I do have another hermetic system at hand (from a golden dawn offspring) which I trust, which I know to work out for me and which is about all tarot keys (Bardon methods seems to be focussed on the first). So I see no need to mix with another as mixing similar but still different systems might even lead to more confusion resulting from the subconcious garden.

So what kind of sexuality did these people you mentionned have as far as you/we know? They're all said to have been celibate which is not asexual per se, I guess they were expressing the same force on another level. I think as long as the intensity and the imagination of fullfillment that is the nature of the sexual urge remains (subconciously) bound to orgasm with a beautiful woman and ejaculation the desire nature that brings forth everything is pretty limited in expression. I don't think homosexuality is helpful in particular. Maybe some of the past genius were thought of being homosexuals because they didn't react to women the expected way and showed love for their male friends. I think physically acted out homosexuality can lead to energetic congestions as there is no complementary balancing. However tender affection for someone of the same gender is not homosexuality.

I struggle with these issues and sometimes headache as well. However I think of retention as necessary for significant brain updates and I am sure there is a state of conciousness ahead of us where sex with jade sticks and yonis fades out of everyday's life focus as a rather modest version of the universal intercourse going on. What sometimes helps me a lot (to distribute the thick energy throughout my body) is music, either making & experiencing sound on my own or moving and resonating with hand-picked psytrance, detuned to c=256 hz (minus 38 cents that is in most cases) so that the structure of my own vessel can resonate with the music and experience the sonic pulsing as of inner origin.

thank you, astral, for the input / the food... several useful hints in it for me! I actually didn't jump from one extreme to the other in diet - I grew up vegetarian and mainly remained so, also avoiding sugar, wheat / white grain and most diary products for quite a long time. As I practiced vegan and raw already in the past, I expect to be able to change without the longer transition times you mentionned. They are some sort of more confusing, as the subconcious mind requires a clear information / decision. I heard of the China study, yes, and I had a look @the Essene gospels (not what I need right now but also offering treasures - Jesus is great for sure, he helped me several times). D'avid