WallaMike

In the non-dual perspective, everything, everyone is in the Tao, even people who think they are not in the Tao or don't follow the Tao. So, from this perspective, you can "reshape" the Tao, but it still remains the Tao. It really depends upon how a person defines the Tao and to argue without knowing the definitions being used usually just ends up frustrating both parties. I kind of cringed in self-recognition when I noted you used the phrase: "all is as it should be" as an example, since I tend to use that phrase. Your using that as an example helped me to realize the inherent erroneous assumption in that statement, as well as the idea that the Tao is "perfect". As someone else said, it just "is". Perfection, as well as assumptions about what is evil and good are human constructions. This is not to say evil and good don't exist, since we as humans also exist and we need these concepts to function. Perhaps at some level they do exist even independent of human conception. However, at certain levels they disappear, just as yin and yang disappear.

I've seen the argument about mental illness removing the need for responsibility for behavior before and I think there is some sort of assumption that isn't quite right. I think it revolves around the assumption that if a person is mentally ill, they have no free will ever. I don't think that is true. I think this is some sort of a cultural myth, like drunks don't have to be responsible for what they say, and so people just use it as an excuse. From my experience, in mentally ill people, there is a spectrum of their ability to use their free will and it varies from day to day, as well as person to person. So, there is some partial truth to the idea that mentally ill people have a decreased capacity for judgment and free will. But I'm still a believer that it doesn't exonerate them from all responsibility. In cases like this, I think this woman should be prevented from ever having any more pets and probably should not be allowed to care for children or older people. Perhaps washing out cages with animal poop in them as a community service would be a reasonable punishment. Looking a little more specifically at this case, there is what people call mental illness in which a person is pretty dysfunctional and there are more specific deficiencies in which a person's main dysfunction may be the inability to empathize. This is not infrequently tied to the inability to think through to the possible results of one's actions. I suspect this is what was part of what was going on with this person. To a degree this is a developmental problem, in that most children can't emphasize well until they reach a certain age. However, most children realize you don't put a cat in a garbage can, so it is more than that. Pretty soon we're going to start finding human babies in garbage cans...wait, we already did. Very sad, this inhumanity of people to people and other sentient beings.

I don't have personal experience in this, so take this for what you will. However, I've read many variations on a theme related to this that seem fairly reasonable and talked with several teachers who have experienced similar things. First, to be able to experience something like this, a person has generally to be really, really experienced. Second, what a person experiences varies according to the person's personality and psychological make up, plus the tradition they are in. Thus, based upon what your teacher is telling you, this might be something that is related to your tradition. From my reading, these types of phenomenon may occur when a person is able to get pretty well into what is called the subtle realm. Also from my reading, these phenomenon do appear real to whomever is experiencing them. I have also met people who appear quite sane who tell me about beings materializing in front of them while they are meditating, then opening their eyes and they are still there and then proceed to give them a teaching. However, I question whether a person observing this would be able to see whatever had appeared to the person or not. Thus, at present I take the safe route and work with teachers who know how to keep me out of this sort of situation and avoid any sort of work that has to do with "entities". Just my choice, maybe I'm just a woosey.

Thanks for your nice reply. I was thinking I should have looked up psychonaut on Google before I made my remark, to let you know that I was really interested in the topic. Just from how the word is made, I thought it had to do with navigating around in the inner psyche. So, I checked on Google and while my idea was generally correct, I was surprised to see how much it also related to, may I say, botanically induced states. I have similar misgivings to yours about that. One of my many projects I'm working on is to develop a vocabulary that can be used in communicating about or doing interior exploration. Our (English) language is just not set up well for this, but my idea is to consistently use specific words to describe common interior experiences so that a common base is set up to explore from. As an example, we say we "fall asleep". I think this is related to that many/most of us do have some sort of a feeling of movement as we "drift off" to sleep. Thus, some times when I can't fall asleep, I will try and induce a feeling of a gentle falling and sometimes it actually works. I have also noted that when I'm just starting to drift off to sleep or sometimes when I'm in the zone in meditation, that a feeling of a "space" opens up inside that I become aware of and sometimes I'll see things like faces, sailboats, houses, etc. Psychologists call this the hypnagogic state. Some serious meditators call it the "subtle" realm. I call it Cool! Anyway, at other times when I can't fall asleep, I will try and relax and "open up interior space" and this works even better than inducing the drifting/falling feeling. In other words, I try and find similar experiences with others and put a particular consistent name on them so that we know what we're referring to. Thus, if someone puts a twist on the basic idea, they don't have to start from scratch, but can say: "Last night I was opening up interior space in my mind and at the same time visualized I was drifting down a tunnel. This worked better for me than each alone." (An aside: Both of these maneuvers can be considered "subtle plane" manipulations, so not surpring if they worked better together). Well, perhaps more than you wanted to know, but I thought as a fellow psychonaut that you might be interested. My ultimate goal is to be able to develop a vocabulary such that people can more easily learn interior techniques from reading about them.

Interesting, thanks, I printed it out to review. I have another Chinese Grammar book, but it makes me crazy. Of course, English grammar makes me crazy also, so I'm beleaguered to begin with.

Dear Pilot: Sounds like you've "taken off". Good luck and good landings. I share your confusion about why others who share this do not care to pursue it. So, you're interested in psychonautics? Is this where you get crazy and do naughty things? Sounds, like something I'd like (humor alert). Please explain what this is about if you're so inclined.

From a non-dual Taoist perspective, I think all is as it should be, as it can't be anything else. The Tao is all about change. We're just seeing "change". It is when we get into excessive resisting of this change that we suffer. Remember what happens to the piece of dry stiff grass versus the supple willow. It is when we forget that we, as in humans, are merely part of the Tao, not the Tao, that we get all puffed up about our importance. Our existence in the Tao is barely a transient blip on its radar screen (please forgive the anthropomorphic metaphor). That is not to say that we don't suffer and yes, we will continue to "rage against the machine." However, there are several viable theories that posit that it is due to suffering that we turn to spiritual pursuits in order to understand the "Why?" of it. Based upon many of the posts here, I think most of us have done our "fair" share! This is also not to say that it is all pointless and we should sit on our hands, as it is "as it should be". To say that is to misunderstand this point. Even though I'm not yet at the inner state of understanding what the point is, I presently understand that there is a point...even if there isn't one. I'm not trying to be clever here, this is just a conundrum and could probably be better expressed. That said, at the end of the Ox Herding wood cuts, the last one shows: "Returning to the market with open hands" (or variations on a theme). I interpret that as meaning once we reach a certain level of development to the non-dual level, we are able to return and be a part of the world, because at this stage, the mundane and the spiritual are now the same. And while these people may act ordinary, their perspective is such that they are not. Part of my point being that at a certain level of development or perspective, the chaos we are presently experiencing is understandable. However, most of us, myself including, aren't yet capable. Please note I say "not yet", not just "not" capable. Most all of us on this forum are capable or we wouldn't be here. Thus we are all capable of doing our part in helping "us" through the present chaos, whoever "us" happens to be. Remember the chaos theory of the butterfly causing the hurricane? Thus, we really are at a critical time and so having more people turn toward development rather than regression will make a big difference in how this all comes out. In times of increased stress, most people tend to regress, but a few use these times of chaos to grow. Wasn't it Nietzsche who said "It takes a certain amount of chaos to create a shining star"? This is our big opportunity, for those who dare take it. When a caterpillar changes into a butterfly, the caterpillar is destroyed, but the butterfly, with more freedom and beauty is created. Do you want to be a butterfly or would you rather stay and just become a fatter caterpillar? The choice is yours.

I look forward to your contributions. I continue to have problems finding detailed internal martial arts information or internal work in general. Most of it is just physically described, so I don't get the internal work part. Thanks.

Welcome Jetsun: What sort of Water Meditation are you using? I'm familiar with BK Frantzis' books and have used his dissolving methods for years. His book Opening the Energy Gates of the Body is a good one to start with, just don't get bogged down in the 100+ points he describes as part of the dissolving technique.

Arf! I mean Hello Metal Dog. I've looked at your profile and read some of your comments and have enjoyed them. Would you mind sharing where you presently live and why?

I think Metal Dog has the right perspective to help best accurately answer this question. It really isn't a yes/no type of answer, it's a "Well, it depends" type of answer. I did hatha yoga, which is the mostly physical (asanas) part of the Raja Yoga I did for many years, and at one time was a hatha yoga instructor and even taught it to some students at a medical school in Texas for a short time. I learned it because I thought it would help me learn to move my prana/chi. I was disappointed that it did not seem to help me in this way. However, in retrospect, it was more my fault and not that of the Hatha Yoga, plus I did not have any teachers that taught that aspect of yoga. I'm still looking for a book that denotes the specific flow of prana/chi during the different asanas, so if anyone knows of one, please let me know. On the other hand, during that time, I did vigourous meditations twice a day and had several Kundalini types of experiences. I suspect the hatha yoga helped me get to the point physically so that I could actually have this experience, so think the two are tied together. Thus ends my "well it depends" response, more eloquently explained by Metal Dog. Arf!

This seems a reasonable idea. I've only been on this site a few months and I notice that anything related to sex seems to get the most responses. However, I wonder how some are related to Taoism, like one question about how to "get laid and yet still keep respect".

Some good multivitamins are made by Juice Plus+. They are extracted directly from fruits and vegetables and freeze dried, so have good absorption. However, please consider getting the book "Green for Life" and trying some of the recipes in the back. I don't fully agree with the ideas in the book, but I've tried several of the recipes and they are a novel idea and full of vitamins and minerals. A typical recipe includes 1/2 avocado, 1/4 raw onion, fresh basil 1/4 cup, 1/2 of a head of lettuce, 1/4 of a lime,a piece of garlic, 1-2 cups water, then blenderized and drunk. It has a nice thick almost chewy texture to it and by varying the different vegetables and fruits in it, you get different types of antioxidants, etc. I really love it and for me, half the battle is getting me to take something, so this makes it easy, as it tastes good. I used to juice, but did not like to throw away all that good fiber. Now I blenderize several fruits and veggies and drink them. Very energizing and probably better for you than even good vitamins, due to the better bioavailabilty. Last, I read a recent article that we are having an epidemic of POD due to it being created or worsened by obesity. Thus, weight loss might be somewhat helpful to help control the symptoms. Adipose tisue tends to be a hormone absorbing/emitting substance, and so can really screw up the hormonal balance for some people.

I used to read a lot about Out of Body Experiences (OBE's) and this sounds a lot like it. I've never been able to make up my mind what these people were actually experiencing, but John Monroe wrote a number of books I still look at occasionally. I suspect this is probably what could be considered a subtle body experience. The feeling of static electricity and tingling are typical experiences of this. Since the subtle body is perceived differently than the physical body, as the awareness shifts from one to another, there is both a feeling of movement, as well as a shift in where you perceive you are. The subtle body also relates to the dream level and hence the feeling of movement, traveling, etc can be fairly dramatic, so don't be surprised if you have some interesting experiences. However, as fizit says, don't get attached to this (as in stuck) as it is simply part of the trip from the subtle to causal, to non-dual. All levels have potentially infinite stuff to explore and do, hence the tendency to get stuck at one level if you're not aware of what's up. Sort of like a psychic video game, only better effects. Good luck and have fun.

Hello LB: Please note that under "Taoist Lounge" we have a Healing Circle for people like yourself that have had an injury, etc. Perhaps you could get some more help or advice there, but it sounds like you're already doing a lot anyway and have a relatively good attitude about your injury. Are you a professional snowboarder and is that why you're concerned about your slow healing or are you just an avid fan and tired of being injured? You might also consider finding a physical therapist or massage therapist that is talented in craniosacral techniques to help you move along, as they help a lot with getting those releases to normalize movement, range of motion, etc.

Thanks Shaktimama, you rock!

If I'm interpreting what Hagar is saying, I agree with him and think he has a good point, but I would like to make it a little more concrete. I apologize if I'm mis-intepreting what he's saying and if so take responsibility for my statement on my own. There appear to be two views on male ejaculation in Taoism, with the majority saying no physical ejaculation. However, there is a smaller group that says it is ok for males to ejaculate. So, why the difference? I happen to be in the second group and the way my teacher explains the difference is that it depends upon where a person is getting their energy. If a person gets if from the physical aspect of jing, then retention is needed. If not, then it is not needed. I'm relatively new in this particular practice, but as far as I can determine, in this group we pull down heaven and pull up earth energy to fill us up and store it in areas that don't necessarily correspond to physical areas. So, in connecting to a different source and running it in non-physical areas, we don't have to worry so much about male ejaculation. However, being new at this, I still do notice a difference if I do or not, but think at least part is due to that I'm not very good at my new practice yet. I also suspect that in the two groups, there are probably different goals relating to longivity, "immortality", etc. Thus, once again, I think this is a conundrum, not a contradiction. It used to make me crazy, but once I reached a certain level of knowledge and quit being so concrete in my interpretations, it got a lot easier...but still not easy!

Since you still "seeking", I'll put in my two bits. I'm widely read, but perhaps not as deeply as you are asking, thus I can't answer your multi-verse theory. To be honest, the only place I've heard that a lot has been in physics discussions relating to the outcome of quantum level random events. Perhaps you could Google the different major Buddhist branches, such as Gelugpa, Nyingma, etc, versus "multi-verse" and see if anything comes up. Quesstion 2: it depends upon what you call "true enlightenment". If by that you mean the ultimate merging back into emptiness, I doubt they could as an individual still interact with you in this way. However, at lesser levels it is still possible. So, if you mean as enlightened as a being can get and still have any sense of individuality, then yes. Question 3. Some Buddhas can access past life memories, some can't. Some non-Buddhas can access past life memories, so go figure. However, the further a person goes on the spiritual path, the more likely they will have some sort of experience relating to this. However, this is not something necessarily to be pursued, as I believe this would fall under "siddhis" or psychic powers, which are to be eschewed in any case. Thus, often it is just noted and then let go. Question 4: Buddhas understand the workings of the cosmos usually better than you or I, because they have a higher perspective, metaphorically speaking. Theoretically I guess some Buddha could understand "everything", but I don't think the human mind could bring it down and make it usable. Question 5: Depending upon how you define a Buddha, they can have sex if they want to, but they look upon sex quite differently than we do, so don't do it for the same reasons we do. I would imagine they might do it for "compassionate" reasons, if I can say that without appearing disrespectful. I base this upon some reading that was discussing Hindu enlightened beings, which could correspond to a Buddhist Buddha on the subtle plane level. However, one reason for so much confusion about Buddhas is because there are any number of "definitions" as well as manifestations, as well as simply different ways that people interpret what they think people mean by the word. So as a seeker, please don't get caught too tightly to a specific definition, but look toward, may I say, the "spirit" of the question! (ok, that was lame, but accurate, in its own way. In other words, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because language is so imprecise, as are people's use of it. Plus, there is the mere problem (humor alert) of trying to describe something that is beyond the capability of words to describe accurately. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means that we haven't yet caught up to the idea that there are greater things than dreamt of in anyone's philosophy, not merely Horatio's. So, seeker, don't give up, keep seeking and you'll end up pleasantly surprised.

There are several ways to look at this. I think the foremost question is does vegetarianism work to help a person be more spiritual and meet their spiritual (or health) goals? I think for some people it does and for some it doesn't and I think that is based upon a person's genetics and culture, to a large degree, but perhaps other factors. The point here being why does a person become a vegetarian? Is it because they were told to be a vegetarian by their religion or their dietician? Or was it for "spiritual" reasons. If for spiritual reasons, was it because they did not believe it right to kill animals. It appears the latter reason is one of the major reasons I've seen for why people become a vegegarian. But let's look at this a little closer. Why is it better to kill vegetables than animals? Is it because animals are "higher" in sentience than vegetables? Or is it because people believe that plants have no sentience? As a Ken Wilber fan, I go along with his ideas that sentience, like turtles, goes "all the way down". Yes, plants have less sentience than animals, but they are still aware at certain levels. An argument could be made for sentience in rocks and even atoms and quarks. Of course, here a certain definition of sentience is being made. On the other hand, I don't think anyone really knows what sentience is, nor consciousness, so I don't think a definitive definition of sentience has yet been made, so I use the perhaps more liberal one and so now we get into opinion, which I find is where it always ends up anyway, but I diverge. Based upon my definition of sentience, nothing lives without something else dying. That is what I have observed. The sun, the source of our life in this solar system, is dying so that we may live. Fortunately very slowly, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at. The sun sends us light as it burns itself up, the plants "eat" the light, we and the animals eat the plants, ad infinitum. Thus, vegetarianism done for philosophical reasons seems to me to be a choice of causing the least harm, not a choice of no harm (a variation of "ahimsa.". In other words, plants have less sentience than animals, so killing them is less "harmful" (another value judgment, but let's let that one go). But I still think we need to realize that by living, we (as humans) cause death to many beings, be they plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, let us not forget humans,etc. It is the nature of life...and death. It is something I'm still coming to terms with, since I really don't like to think about it. But when I look at life and death as some sort of dance of spirit, I feel better and understand that life and death is part of the how the universe is set up. As an example, yesterday I found this injured bug and my urge was to put it out of its misery. However, I realized there was this bird eying the bug and that its death throes were just a dinner bell for the bird and is how the bird keeps living. Dying animals, bugs, and even plants are a way to "pass on" the life energy to whatever prays on them. Hopefull this doesn't seem too morbid, but I spend a lot of time in my garden and I see a lot of this first hand. Since this appears to be how the universe "works", being of Taoist inclination, I tend to work to accept this rather than "rail against the machine." Perhaps someone else has a better interpretation than this. I could make one up that describes how there is reincarnation of energy and nothing dies, etc, however, I haven't yet personally experienced that, thus so far I'm just going with what I observe and experience. Perhaps once I'm enlightened I'll get a better idea.

I agree with all of the above comments about practicing martial arts to get a balance. I noted that you have the I-Ching/Bagua symbol as your "sign". In this case I would assume you're aware of how one thing transforms into another, and then back. Thus, I think you have the basis for what you need to work your way through to what has been described here as the "middle way." Meditation has a similar wussy affect on me, but it saved my ass in stressful situations. That was because it enabled me to release a lot of my frustrations that made me feel aggressive; which that in turn allowed to survive a stressful time without "acting out" and getting into serious do-do. Now that I'm past that phase, I've been able to address why with meditation I turned into a wuss. It was because I was stuck at a certain psychological developmental phase of either fighting or fleeing. By doing more energy work, like qigong and tai chi, I've been able to access where I got stuck and now instead of being agressive and "telling people off", I take a martial arts outlook. In martial arts, if you want to defeat someone, you get them angry, then you can lead them into making mistakes, etc. Thus, the martial arts way is to not to let people anger you, but to realize what is really going on and that it is an immature response that at one time might have been literally life saving, but now is ready for rehabilitation. So, doing push hands and other interactive martial arts with others, while keeping your energy and inner self centered, is a great way to get to that healthier, unwussy but appropriately responsive self you are looking for.

One of my theories about why meditation can potentially work for addicts is that I think that most addicts are just more acutely aware of their apparent "separation" from God or however a person might want to describe this feeling that "something is not quite right." This feeling of "separation" causes an inner pain or angst in most all of us and is thought by some to be the basis for our spiritual striving. I think an addict is more actively aware of this for whatever reason: genetic, social, environmental, etc, and so has this chronic gnawing feeling of pain or emptiness or depression or whatever and certain types of drugs or alcohol or whatever can transiently either smother that feeling or in some way help them to not feel so bad. Enter the "bliss" of meditation. My theory on this is that if we got a PET scan of someone in blissful meditation, it would show that their pleasure centers were getting lots of stimulation. This is not to reduce spiritual or meditational bliss to merely a physical stimulation or meditational masturbation, as I am a Ken Wilber fan and so believe that the exterior and the interior are merely two sides of one coin. I just believe that there are physical correlates to interior experiences and vice versa, but both arise simultaneously; the chicken and the egg arise at the same time, as it were. After too many years of futile meditation, qigong, tai chi, etc, you name it, I'm finally at the point where I can say that I have occasionally briefly touched the hem of bliss and it is real and it is healing. I could see that if I ever got good enough to be able to attain this level whenever I felt like it, it would significantly decrease any physically based craving I might have. Not that there is anything wrong with physical cravings and in fact sometimes I enjoy having them and satisfying them. I just don't like to be controlled by them. Thus, having an "alternative" and socially acceptable way to control these cravings such as meditation could go a long way toward helping with addictions, from my experience. However, the devil is in the details as they say. Meditation comes in many styles, takes a lot of effort and time, can be expensive to learn since insurance doesn't pay for it, and the level I'm talking about requires a very high level teacher with a lot of psychological experience thrown in to be able to deal with the things that come up along the way. Please see SFJane's account of her experiences for a good example of that.

If you like BK's breathing practices, he also has an great CD on it. He progresses you from a regular breathing pattern, using a quiet gong for timing the breaths and decreasing down to about 4-5 breaths per minute. I listened to it one time on a car trip and then tried to see how long I could go before I lost count. I got up to over 2500 when I had to stop and take care of my bodily needs. I then got back in and restarted. Interestingly enough, I got stopped twice by police on the way back. I think I was sitting so quietly and not moving around as I drove that perhaps they thought I was inebriated or something. However, no tickets and no sobriety tests, so I'm still not sure what brought this one or if it were mere coincidence. Good luck!

Please feel free to educate us a little about Peat and Deep Peat, as that is not something I'm familiar with. Welcome to the forum.

Which 9 movements are you referring to? I'm familiar with the 8 brocades, but not the nine movements; are they meridian or otherwise based? Thanks!