Daeluin

Internally it is said the Civil Fire is used first, to heat and create the proper environment for the Martial Fire to be used. If the intensity of the Martial Fire is applied too soon, perhaps this is like slowly frying an egg vs dropping it into boiling water. In one case the egg is cooked as a whole, in the the other case it becomes fragmented. So I wonder if in conversation this needs application too. When I observe Martial Fire put to use in discussions, it usually seems more intense than the conversation is prepared for, and thus it creates fragmentation. So I wonder if it could be more effectively put to application by using civility to incrementally turn up the heat and allow two sides to rest against each other without conflict, and then when their edges have begun to soften the intense heat can be more effectively put to use. This brings me back to the difference between internal and external use of fire. Internally one has a goal in mind. But externally one is a participant in a greater whole that one does not control. We can also see the numeric of 7 as the inception of spiritual consciousness, perhaps. Internally that is one thing, but when two people come together outside, if their spirits are not in harmony and one person's spirit attempts to externally dominate the combined whole of their two energies, then there is no room for the other person's spirit. In this way perhaps we can use the translation of "Ruling Fire" rather than "Martial Fire," similar to the leading force that ties together the whole between a gathering of energies. For these energies to work toward the same purpose they all must identify with and respect a common goal. In gatherings of people we have governments and monarchs which serve the purpose of this central dynamic of Ruling Fire. But it often causes lots of contention if people don't agree with the decisions made by this governing force. Again following the same principle, using the Ruling Fire to force compliance can lead to civil unrest, but using the Civil Fire can help to bring people back into merging with the whole. Once the whole is gathered, perhaps the Ruling Fire can be used more effectively to drive change forward, now that everyone is one the same page. Would this not lead to a continuous chain of wu causing wu? I did some study on emotional escalation within conversations. One person would react to something and become a little more wu in their responses, which caused a reaction in the other person who became a little more wu in their responses. This would keep happening. What I found interesting is that the first few reactions went largely unnoticed. By the time someone was conscious of their reaction, they would instinctively believe the other person had done something wrong and deserved a hard-edged response, without realizing that the other person felt the same way. In other words, both people sincerely felt the other person had initiated the conflict, which justified their own conflict oriented responses. We see this all the time with children saying "but they started it". Perhaps this helps me understand your decision making process. I'm hearing that if someone appears to utilize wu, you respond with wu. With words this can be very easy, as all someone needs do is describe an absolute, and if you don't agree with it, they become perceived as wrong, and you correct them. However if they step outside of of saying things that appear as wu, and engage in explanations for their perspective, you are happy to also switch gears to a more wen based approach. I apologize if I am misunderstanding - I am just describing what I am getting from the words you wrote, and it may not be what you intended. I suppose what I am struggling with here, is the presumption that one is right. If someone pushes us, we push back, no questions asked. And we only offer civility if it is offered first. Hence if someone pushes us, we don't give them a chance at civility before pushing them back. But how do we know we are more right than they are? I get the sense that your tradition believes it is connected deeply to ultimate truths, and that at some level this makes your righteousness irreproachable. Please forgive me if I am mistaken here, it is simply what I am receiving from observing your exchanges. We might also see this type of understanding in use of force by police - if someone uses wu with a police officer, the officer is inclined to use wu immediately in response, believing themselves to hold an inherent position of righteousness. Unfortunately this dynamic often leads to violent escalations and creates a divide between civilians and officers of the law. If the law's purpose is for the mutual and common interest of all people it would make more sense to me for all people to uphold the law, and for officers to exist as a form of regularly distributed awareness. I am sorry for opening this up to such an extent; I am finding this principle of vital importance for thorough understanding for correct progress of my personal development. In the daodejing it is advised that a small country submit to invasion by a bigger country, and vice versa for the bigger country to submit to the smaller counter. The small country will inherently benefit from the vaster resources of the larger country, all it needs do is allow its own ego-identity (Ruling Fire) to surrender to transformation. Similarly, the larger country may simply absorb the smaller country, and may benefit from all the smaller country may bring. A great country is like the lower outlet of a river. It is the world's meeting ground, the world's female. The female always surpasses the male with stillness. In her stillness she is yielding. Therefore: If a great country yields to a small country, It will conquer the small country. If a small country yields to a great country, It will be conquered by the great country. So, some who yield become conquerors, And some who yield get conquered. A great country needs more people to serve it. A small country needs more people to serve. So, if both shall get what they need, The great country ought to yield. 61 Stefan Stenudd This chapter has troubled me for a long time, but perhaps I am beginning to understand the heart of it. For the merging of two identities, the individual spark of life that exists in each one of them, which is what makes them two identities, needs to be come one spark of life that is shared between them. Obviously there will be conflict if one or the other insists on maintaining a separate spark of life, which will result in the Ruling Fire of the one to clash with the Ruling Fire of the other. The whole may have only one heart. Thus the use of the Civil Fire to create unification between the separate parts. In bringing them together with civility, there will be changes to how and where the Ruling Fire will be shaped in is existence. Often we seem to attach to the Ruling Fire as being the "identity" and desire to fight against threats to this identity, which is simply resistance to change. Next we have the ideas of wu-wei and ziran. Externally invisible, one's fire returned and hidden within, there is no external conflict between things one happens upon. One may flow harmoniously along one's course without being controlled by the inevitability of conflict between one's exposed Ruling Fire and that of another's. In this way one's internal is rare and pure, while simultaneously one's external face is empty, in support of the natural Ruling Fire that exists externally between all things beneath heaven. This is Zhuangzi's Walking Two Roads, and LaoZi's not daring to be ahead of anything beneath heaven, and the yijing's hexagram 13 ䷌, sameness with others; the fire is hidden within, so that one may be one with heaven. So again and again I seem to reach the same conclusions. Perhaps I am simply coming to a time where I accept that others will insist on using force and being controlled by their use of force, and grow more internally on my own. This changes the topic back to the difficulty in finding good teachers, because they are hidden. However, following the principle, it seems that a good teacher, even in hiding their Ruling Fire, may still offer their Civil Fire, but it is up to the prospective student to hear the depth within what is offered.

Honestly I don't dislike Opendao's delivery. It is more that I am having trouble identifying its effective principle. We started talking about this here, and I updated this thread yesterday with some recent ideas. I feel like the Martial fire could be effective, but perhaps I am simply not able to correctly perceive this. I would welcome suggestions in that thread. I am more a water person, and effective / refined use of fire has been more difficult to identify for me. I like the general brimming cup parallel. So far I see that to be a very widespread issue - lots of people running with brimming cups. It feels like this often creates clashes which seem to resonate with the principle of fire. So it brings me back to this issue with understanding fire. As for Taoist Texts, I don't know, is he looking for something?

I've been studying the numerics of daoist cosmology a bit more, and in Pregadio's translation of the cantong qi I found a chart listing: 丁 ding - Civil Fire 丙 bing - Martial Fire Ding and Bing are the two Celestial Stems representing fire. Ding is yin fire and Bing is yang fire. In the numerics fire is represented by 2 and 7. Even numerics are yin, odd numerics are yang, so we have 2 as the yin, civil fire, and 7 as the yang, martial fire. My read of these principles, which may or not be accurate (deliberately and civilly leaving an opening for someone to say I'm wrong without needing to defend myself, as I'm not trying to prove anything here, just sharing a perspective), is that 2 and 7 are related to polarity. Within the celestial, perhaps 2 represents the polarity of non-existence and existence, and within the material perhaps 7 represents the active distinguishing force that says I am separate from others, here is a boundary, everything within is me, everything without is separate. In the cantong qi and other neidan classics, it is said that the numeric of 7 returns. My read on this is that there is no need for maintaining separation, and the circulation and return of the numeric of 7 allows withdrawal from maintaining the polarity within the material realm. Just my novice opinion of course. In any case, exploring this principle leads me to recognize how this martial fire exists as a separating force. When I touch something hot I tend to pull my hand away quickly, to avoid getting burned. When someone yells at or directs intense emotional energy at me I tend to feel pushed away, and raise my guard to defend against further hurt. There is a line being drawn between things. Wars aren't pretty, and often require the continued use of martial fire in order to prevent retaliation. The use of yang fire also creates earth - it re-positions the center. This is very similar to how I feel ego is created. In neidan water is treated as sacred for it hides the one true breath of yang. And yet water is controlled by earth. When the ego is strong, water is made to revolve around the needs of an artificial center. But when the ego is dissolved, the water can replenish without interference from blockages and dams. I understand that the use of both fires is important, but I sense it is a delicate balance. The cantong qi goes as far as to say that when water flourishes, fire is extinguished and they both die, revealing the pre-celestial wu and ji within. The past few months I continue to see members on these forums attack each other because one way is better than the other. If the martial fire can be used appropriately to drive something in a necessary direction, as in neidan, that is one thing. But I hardly fathom how one could presume to know what such direction is right for another, and in these heated discussions entrenched separation is about all I see. If it was being used effectively I would expect to see positive change over time, but so far all I see are the forging of enemies. The wikipedia entry on Wen and Wu has an interesting quote by John K Fairbank: “Warfare was disesteemed in Confucianism... The resort to warfare (wu) was an admission of bankruptcy in the pursuit of wen [civility or culture]. Consequently, it should be a last resort... Herein lies the pacifist bias of the Chinese tradition... Expansion through wen... was natural and proper; whereas expansion by wu, brute force and conquest, was never to be condoned.”

Hmmm.... what isn't a fad? The path to the changeless changes with every moment. Certainly there is no absolute need for a teacher. Anything is possible. Even though we must learn everything for ourselves - even when we learn from teachers - it is foolish to think that anything is self-taught. Caution sounds wise. Can always change the words, but hard to change what has been seen. What is on the surface doesn't matter as much as what is happening within. Adjust the outer nozzles as inner change is desired. Set intention and let the energy do the work.

Perhaps a new pattern has been published since this thread came out. Can read about it here. Or download it: Gritter Hidden Pattern.pdf This pattern fits very well, and could be an original key used with the King Wen Sequence for some purpose. It is hard to say how well known this key was, and is entirely possible the Sequence was used without the key because of the Sequence's historical value long after the key had been forgotten. ######################################### It looks like there was some confusion in understanding the yin and yang progression of the King Wen sequence earlier in this thread. I'll try a ground up explanation again. ######################################### So we have hexagrams numbered in a sequence 1-64. This is appears to be the order we received them in from the bamboo strips, ala: It reads from top-right to bottom left. Note how 28 of the hexagrams have been given names both below and above the hexagrams. The ones above are upside down, and, if we flip the hexagram over to read the name, the hexagram itself changes. These 28 hexagrams may be flipped over (reversed) to form a matching set of 28 hexagrams, making a total of 56. The remaining 8 hexagrams are the same forwards and backwards, so they are named once and set next to their opposites. Putting it all together by reading from the first hexagram at the top right and proceeding to the left, we come up with the order. Hexagram 1 and 2 have no reversals, but then we come to the 3rd hexagram and take it's reverse as the 4th, and so on. ䷀ 乾 qián ䷁ 坤 kūn, which is the opposite of 1 ䷂ 屯 chún ䷃ 蒙 méng, which is 3 flipped over the 4th hexagram listed the 4th hexagram up-side-down the 5th hexagram listed the 5th hexagram up-side-down and so on. We come to see that this is a dual sequence - one energy, and then it's counterpart. This is similar to day and night. We count a single 24-hour period as one "day", but it is a full fluctuation of change. After midnight the yang energy waxes to noon and wanes to midnight. After midnight the yin energies wane until noon and then wax until midnight. As odd numbers are considered yang and even numbers considered yin, we can write out this same sequence 1-64 in terms of odd and even like so: 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25 27 29 31 33 35 37 39 41 43 45 47 49 51 53 55 57 59 61 63 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 The top and the bottom rows are counterparts of each other. The cantong qi talks about a monthly hexagram cycle that follows the King Wen sequence, using 2 hexagrams every day. A lunar cycle is 29.5 days, and we have 64 hexagrams, or 32 pairs of hexagrams (one for morning and one for evening). The hexagrams of heaven and earth, fire and water, are considered to be eternal facets of change, and are not part of the sequence. This leaves us with 30 pairs of hexagrams starting with 3 and 4, skipping 29 and 30, and ending with 63 and 64. This gives us 12 hexagram lines every 24 hour period, which aligns with the concept of 12 energy hours. Mid Night ~11pm-1am 子 Yang Water Late Night ~1-3am 丑 Yin Earth Dawn ~3-5am 寅 Yang Wood Sunrise ~5-7am 卯 Yin Wood Morning ~7-9am 辰 Yang Earth Late Morning ~9-11am 巳 Yin Fire Noon ~11am-1pm 午 Yang Fire Afternoon ~1-3pm 未 Yin Earth Late Afternoon ~3-5pm 申 Yang Metal Sunset ~5-7pm 酉 Yin Metal Evening ~7-9pm 戌 Yang Earth Early Night 9-11pm 亥 Yin Water So for our 2 hexagrams every day, we start with line 1 (the bottom line) at Mid Night 子, and change lines every hour until we get to the top line at 巳. Then, according to Pregadio's translation of the cantong qi, we switch to the next hexagram, and starting with the TOP line we work our way down from 午 to 亥. Here's what this looks like for hexagrams 3 and 4: This arrangement is interesting for several reasons. In a hexagram each line position has a different meaning. The 2nd and 5th lines are the centers of the top and bottom trigrams, and here we have the Earth Hours (Earth represents the center) positioned as the center of the trigrams. Next we have the bottom lines, which are considered to be subordinate to the other lines, represented as the Water Hours, where Water is considered a beginning, or potential type of energy. Things are stored up in Water and slow to move. The top lines in a hexagram are graduating - they've accomplished their goals within change, and tend to represent the higher more spiritual element that is beyond the matter at hand and often chased away by the mundane. Spiritual energy is often associated with the fire phase, and holds properties of illumination and clarity, but is also known to be impatient and easily scattered when its foundation (all the lower lines) do not provide stability. While the top two lines (5-6) are considered Heavenly, and the bottom two lines (1-2) are considered Earthly, the middle two lines (3-4) are considered to be within the Human realm. Matched to the hours these middle lines coincide with the hours of sunrise and sunset - the transitional periods where yang overcomes yin as the sun brightens what is dark, and where yin overcomes yang as the light of the sun fades into dark. When we navigate the hexagrams in this fashion, taking one forwards and the other backwards, it is similar to walking up a hill, and then down the hill. Even though the shape is very similar, it feels very different walking up than down. This is a principle the King Wen Sequence can be used to gain a deeper appreciation of. ############################################# Next we might look at the received hexagram chart again and observe the differences between the top and bottom rows, known as the Upper Canon and the Lower Canon. The Upper Canon contains 30 hexagrams while the Lower Canon contains 34 hexagrams. Gritter's Grid helps to understand the pattern hidden in this. The Upper Canon begins with the hexagrams of pure yang and pure yin, and ends with double-water and double-fire. We know from the cantong qi that these four are considered eternal forces. They also represent half of the 8 hexagrams that are doubled: Heaven ☰ under Heaven ☰ -- 1 ䷀. Earth ☷ under Earth ☷ -- 2 ䷁. Water ☵ under Water ☵ -- 29 ䷜. Fire ☲ under Fire ☲ -- 30 ䷝. Thunder ☳ under Thunder ☳ -- 51 ䷲. Mountain ☶ under Mountain ☶ -- 52 ䷳. Wind ☴ under Wind ☴ -- 57 ䷸. Lake ☱ under Lake ☱ -- 58 ䷹. We can see here that these are all paired as sets in the King Wen Sequence: 1-2, 29-30, 51-52, 57-58. And we can see that the Upper Canon is opened and closed by the first and second sets. The Lower Canon begins with 31 ䷞ and 32 ䷟, ending with 63 ䷾ and 64 ䷿. The pre-celestial, or xian-tian arrangement of the hexagrams are described in the shougua-zhuan as complementary pairs: Heaven ☰ and ☷ Earth settle into their positions; Mountain ☶ and Lake ☱ intermingle their Qi; Thunder ☳ and Wind ☴ intertwine with each other; and Water ☵ and Fire ☲ do not repel each other. The Eight Trigrams interconnect with one another. To learn where we are going is the forward way. To know where we have come from is the reverse way. These pairings seem to exist due to their stability and nobility. There are 8 hexagrams where the trigrams interact in these relationships: Heaven ☰ under Earth ☷ forms 11 ䷊ which reverses into 12 ䷋. Mountain ☶ under Lake ☱ forms 31 ䷞ which reverses into 32 ䷟ which is Wind ☴ under Thunder ☳. Lake ☱ under Mountain ☶ forms 41 ䷨ which reverses into 42 ䷩, which is Thunder ☴ under Wind ☳. And Fire ☲ under Water ☵ forms 63 ䷾ which reverses into 64 ䷿. We can see that these form 4 sets within the King Wen Sequence, including the opening and closing of the Lower Canon. So we've learned that the Upper Cannon is opened and closed by doubled pairs, and the Lower Canon is opened and closed by these complementary pairs. Perhaps this shows a significance to doubled and complementary trigrams in the King Wen Sequence. ############################################### As both the doubled and complementary pairs form a sort of central and stable merging of energies, perhaps Gritter had the idea to place them at the center, in their sets. There are 16 hexagrams and 8 sets: 1 ䷀ ䷁ 2 11 ䷊ ䷋ 12 29 ䷜ ䷝ 30 31 ䷞ ䷟ 32 41 ䷨ ䷩ 42 51 ䷲ ䷳ 52 57 ䷸ ䷹ 58 63 ䷾ ䷿ 64 Having identified the central column, so to say, Gritter arranged the other sets of hexagrams around them as seen here: Aside from the pair in the center 29-30, 31-32, we can see that the Upper and Lower Canon's each have an interesting numerical arrangement, or perhaps 4 different numerical arrangements - 6, 8, 9, 7. The number 6, 7, 8 and 9 are used to represent the ebb and flow of yang and yin, perhaps as seen in a yin-yang symbol, where lesser, younger yang grows into greater, older yang, which having culminated becomes lesser, younger yin which grows into greater, older yin, which having culminated begins as younger yang again. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are considered the numbers of creation, while the numbers 6, 7, 8, 9 are considered the numbers of completion. Taking the odd numbers as yang, we add together 1+3+5 to get 9, the maximum of yang. Taking the even numbers as yin, we add together 2+6 to get 6, the maximum of yin. 7 and 8 may be formed by a combination of yang and yin numbers of creation. 1+2+5 = 8 4+3 = 7 1+3+4 = 8 2+5 = 7 Or one might use the numbers 2 and 3 to find: 2+2+2 = 6 2+2+3 = 7 2+3+3 = 8 3+3+3 = 9 While the 6 and 9 have absolute combinations, the 7 and 8 may be arranged differently without changing their amount. So we find that Gritter's arrangement of the hexagram pairs/sets yields distinct groupings of 6, 8, 9, 7 pairs. ######################################### Finally we can see that by placing the Upper Cannon over the Lower Canon, it fits like a glove: When this happens, the grouping of 6 is merged with the grouping of 9, forming 15. And the grouping of 8 is merged with the grouping of 7, again forming 15. Not only that but we are left with a very neat block of 6 by 5. This brings us back to the Lunar cycle, which waxes for 15 days and wanes for 15 days. Historically, the month was broken into 6 nodes of 5 days, and 6 of the 8 trigrams could be used to measure the progress of this waxing and waning every five days. 1st 5: Thunder ☳ 2nd 5: Lake ☱ 3rd 5: Heaven ☰ 4th 5: Wind ☴ 5th 5: Mountain ☶ 6th 5: Earth ☷ We are left with four hexagrams sticking out: [31,32] and [29,30]. But I can't help but remember that hexagrams 1, 2, 29, 30 are known as eternal forces. And I can't help but see that 1 and 2 are immediately beneath 31 and 32. So I feel rather tempted to swap them out. This would leave the eternal hexagrams sticking out. And without forcing things I become more curious to study [31,32]. It is interesting that the new "Canon" is opened with the complementary set and closed with the doubled set. I am still exploring the implications of this. For instance what if one uses this in the manner advised by the cantong qi? Even though the sequence is described by starting with 3 and 4 and ending with 63 and 64, the 6 nodes of 5 days aspect of this arrangement, pieced together based on groupings that add up to create 15, is hard to ignore. Hopefully this helps someone come closer to dao. Blessings!

Oh gosh, I'm still studying all of this. There are so many angles to ponder. Fire is certainly important for many reasons, especially related to alchemy. I don't presume to understand what is needed there, but it is fun to explore the game of elemental forces numerology. Earlier today I was reading Douglas White's translation and commentary on the Xici Zhuan (a commentary on the Yi Jing), particularly chapter 1.09.01 on the Ho Map diagram and numbers of creation and completion. White's commentary helps reach some of the depth in the symbolism behind the numbers 1-5, 6-10, which are the root of qi theory, wuji, taiji, the five phases, eight trigrams, and so on. With their five phase assignments 1,6 are water, 2,7 fire, 3,8 wood, 4,9 metal, and 5,10 are earth. 1-5 are related to creation and perhaps celestial, 5-10 are related to completion and perhaps material. White says the common cycle within the physical is 7-9-8-6-7. These are also the numbers used to determine lines in an yijing divination. The yang numbers of creation add up 1+3+5 to 9, which indicates an old yang line. Having reached it's maximum, yang changes to yin. The yin numbers of creation add up 2+4 to 6, which indicates an old yin line. Having reached its maximum, yin changes to yang. The numbers 7 and 8 are in between and represent stable forces. So 7-9-8-6-7 - yang becoming old and changing to yin and becoming old and changing to yang - the yin-yang symbol. The metaphysical calendar monitors the ebb and flow of these energetic numerics to track time. Some of the alchemical texts speak in terms of these numbers and their functions within, such as: Cantong Qi tl Pregadio: "Qian ☰ is movement and is straight": Breath spreads and Essence flows. "Kun ☷ is quiescence and is gathered": it is the hut of the Dao. The firm gives forth and then recedes, the yielding transmutes and thereby nurtures. The 9 reverts, the 7 returns, the 8 goes back, the 6 remains. Man is white, woman is red; Metal and Fire seize one another. Water then stabilizes Fire: It is the first of the Five Agents. "Superior goodness is like water" because it is flawless and clear. These are the forms and images of the Dao, but True Unity can hardly be charted: it alters itself and distributes by parting, and each part dwells alone, on its own. or... "Know the white, keep to the black," and the Numinous Light will come of its own. White is the essence of Metal. Black is the foundation of Water. Water is the axis of the Dao: its number is 1. At the beginning of Yin and Yang, Mystery holds the Yellow Sprout; it is the ruler of the five metals, the River Chariot of the northern direction. That is why lead is black on the outside but cherishes the Golden Flower within, like the "man who wears rough-hewn clothes but cherishes a piece of jade in his bosom," and outwardly behaves like a fool. The "Numinous Light" mentioned sounds like the "mandala" mentioned here. The filling up the lower, middle and upper dan tiens to replenish one's foundation as a prerequisite stage in neidan seems to go along with what you describe. Things happen when one gives them a foundation to operate within. When things are forced they don't maintain because they aren't part of a natural foundation. You're probably further along than I could hope to explain for you. The five phases operate on several layers, and it is not easy to understand. There are the numerics of creation and completion, and the implication of the ordering of the phases numerically and within cosmology. Then the implications of the trigrams and their xiantian / houtian arrangements based on the Ho Map and Lo Map diagrams. I get that Water is an origin of sorts. And yet without Fire it cannot be properly prepared and can freeze up and stagnate. Fire heats and warms, but also creates polarity that damages the water's wholeness / integrity if one is not careful to use the right amount. (Fire burning and creating Earth. Earth is the center so fire can manipulate the center, one's equilibrium, if it is not properly managed. Further Earth controls Water, so if the integrity of Earth is not maintained, it poorly influences the purity of the water, which further undermines the ability of the Fire to burn clearly and stably.)

Actually, great food can be found in garbage bins. Is merely relative to how much waste is found in society. In the past year checking just a couple dumpsters a week has yielded gallons of orange juice (we froze and lasted 2 months), huge block of chocolate, endless supply of apples and expensive packaged hummus, all kinds of cheese, random creative fruit juices that didn't sell, butter, organic veggies, tofu, etc, etc. It may be a different paradigm for many. We can afford buying groceries. But is rather odd to let so much good food go to waste. Determining the true from the false is a matter of refinement. Sounds like the fire phase being exalted above the water phase. Don't the texts tend to emphasize the water phase? Certainly fire is important, when used with a furnace and cauldron. But if one is just attacking things in the world, like jumping up and down on a bottle of glass, it is easy to just create more shapings to the false while the true remains just as hidden.

When something has edges, others may grasp those edges, using them as handholds for leverage in digesting the obstacle placed in their path. When something is smooth, the obstacle is clear, and not easily attacked. The world is not black and white, but shades of gray, ever changing. When something is able to merge in harmony within the dominant paradigms of change, it might have a better chances of being perceived as smooth. When something proclaims anything that might be taken as an absolute, it produces an edge. I've come to learn that it pays off to express things as humbly as I may. Then it is less likely for my words to need defending. If a pedestal is never raised, and nothing valued over something else, then there is little reason for attacking it. The system known as "Non-Violent Communication" is a great way to study how common language structure can convey loaded messages we don't even intend. Such as "a" versus "the".

In the mean time I've started reading Douglas White's translation and commentary of chapter nine of the da zhuan. Shared here. This is an excellent commentary!

So apparently Zhu Xi (Song dynasty) has a book, 易學啟蒙, which has been fully translated by Joseph Adler in Introduction to the Study of the Classic of Change. I've read Zhu Xi had a commentary on chapter 9 of the da zhuan / great commentary / 繫辭傳, in which he goes into the numerology behind the calculating of a line and why the yarrow stalk method is important even though at the time (Song) it had been falling out of use to the coin method. There are four chapters: The River Chart and the Lo Writing The Original Drawing of the Trigrams Explaining the Milfoil Stalks Explaining the Prognostications of the Changes So I'm guessing this is the book I heard about. I'll report back after I'm able to get / read a copy, if it adds any context to the question.

The importance of the classics is similar to the importance of learning from a master. A normal teacher can see that you are obviously favoring your left leg and help you to use it better. A master might ignore the leg entirely, offering guidance at what might appear to be an entirely unrelated angle. The master is likely to see deeper, and for their guidance to take one very far, should it be practiced with sincerity of intent. It is the same with books. One learns the efficacy of a tool by using it, not by talking about it. From what I can tell, the classics speak from many perspectives at once. It is doubtful a translation can carry the full transmission. Even so, the more time I spend using the tools, the more layers connect. The classics are nice in that they stick to the root. Perhaps they are like holograms - even cut it in half and the whole is yet encoded within each half. Modern sources don't tend to have much strength with this ability. While I agree that various instruction manuals could be incomplete and misleading, I think this is really just part of the principle. The false is continuously spread over the surface. Had WL denied his students from making an english translation perhaps someone would have done so unofficially and it would have made an even more imbalanced impact. WL's loud wind is going to be heard, and he is likely only part of that phenomena. Even with obfuscations, I think there is enough truth hidden within to lead others more toward the dao. The key is to recognize when there is an obfuscation and work on discovering the truth it is hiding. Oddly enough, attacking what is false tends to create even more of a mess, further obscuring the true. Pointing at the true from within the false is easy enough, but there aren't always students willing to look.

Reply to "off-topic" comments that are likely rather on-topic

^^^Just wanted to point out that the preference expressed in the bolded paragraph necessarily means a continual drift overall towards a nearly pure-yang steady-state. If the imbalance is very small, that just means it takes longer to get there. Just food for thought. Hmmm, I'm a little confused by what you might mean by "pure-yang steady-state." If the drift is related to stored-potential-energy (yang) becoming more used than it is returned into storage, how does it reach a "pure-yang steady-state?" To me it feels like the drift is toward the creation of the 10,000 things, perhaps as related to our observation of the continual expansion of the universe. If this creation-heavy drift is what is being marked, perhaps that is the key to knowing which methods to apply for readings.

Ah - so the 16 object method might give the 1/7-yin 3/5-yang probabilities, however it is being debated that the yarrow technique actually yield's a more complex probability more closely related to a 38 object method giving 2/17-yin, 8/11-yang chances. Interestingly this means that the rare yin-to-yang changes of the 16 object method become even rarer in a milfoil divination, and the more common changes yang to yin in 16 object are actually even more common with milfoil.

Maybe this type of questioning helps illuminate why teachers are hard to find. Neidan is a process of reversal. After studying the process of manifestation, we come to see how the components of the whole are used to create myriad shapes and forms. When this process is reversed, the myriad forms may be combined and brought back together using specific techniques for the appropriate stages, to return the internal state one's spirit has responsibility over back to the primordial realms. Due to this process of reversal, we have concepts like: those who know, don't speak; those who speak, don't know. This is significant, for many reasons. For the student who seeks a teacher, this means a true teacher, whom is practicing the principle of reversal on many levels, is going to be somewhat hidden. This process of neidan is perhaps like returning one's self to the state of the primordial dao that is hidden within everything. Thus one is seeking the needle in the haystack oneself, and paradoxically it helps if one lessens the hold on seeking somewhat and opens and allows oneself to become the needle. At some stages the needle cannot be sought, one has to allow oneself to fall into place via non-doing. And thus seekers of teachers are looking for these needles. The ones that are easier to find might still share some poignant information that helps to lead those with sincerity deeper on their search, and also might stall those who are simply seeking power, and so on. With more people seeking, there are bound to many who simply seek for greater power. Even though what is sought lies within a mysterious balance, those who seek can still take things to extremes if they are unable to change their momentum. But with more seekers, perhaps more will find their way to deeper truth as well. Regardless of how many people find their way to the root, it is likely good that more people are seeking for something deeper within themselves, one way or the other. Even should the vast majority not reach the root, whatever layers they do reach could bring modern society into deeper communion with balance. In many ways, Who knows? is a more poignant and truthful answer than a detailed explanation. It returns the questioner back to themselves. Yet often it takes a while before the questioner is willing to listen to the answers within. This makes it easier for them to miss the true and continue looking for what exists on the surface. People don't like things they can't hold on to, and true masters tend to be somewhat invisible and difficult to hold on to, just like the dao. They and it are everywhere, and touch you without you noticing.

Oh I simply feel there are many kinds of true words which do not lead to contention. When one sees from all perspectives, what need is there for harsh words? – 17 – The greatest type of ruler is one of whose existence the people are hardly aware. Next best is a leader who is loved and praised. Next comes the one who is feared. The worst is the one who is despised. When a leader doesn’t trust the people, they will become untrustworthy. The best leader speaks little. He never speaks carelessly. He works without self interest and leaves no trace. When the work is accomplished, the people say: “Amazing: we did it all by ourselves.”

I like your wu 武 approach. In that it is firm and stable. It attempts to keep things in their correct positions. It also leads to contention (䷅), and people follow you around just to poke at your authoritarianism, like lichen growing on a cliff face. Naturally ䷅ is in effect in the cantong qi cycle now - day 2 of the new moon, hexagrams 5 and 6. Zhuangzi speaks on this type of thing frequently. There is no absolute right or wrong. Everything may be perceived as right or wrong from some perspective. After every yang there is yin, after every yin there is yang. So expressing an absolute right or wrong-ness will usually call forth the polarity. However great a teacher is, there are students they will not be able to reach. However complete a school may be, it has yet to grow and change. However assured one's position is, stating it may still cause more harm than good. Even as I do here. What do I really know in the end? Sometimes we feel there are rights and wrongs... yet the sages advise when in contentious situations, that one must at least stop half-way to achieve good results: In Contention, there should be sincerity. Exercise prudence in handling obstruction. To halt half-way means good fortune. To persist to the end means misfortune. It is fitting to see the great man. It is not fitting to cross the great water.

Thank you for the clarification. I think many of us here get caught up on absolutes, either in goals or in methods, while in reality there are many shades and layers. It is nice to hear there may be schools that retain much of the completeness. I think it is tricky though. When one hears "this school is complete, while most others are not" it can create a hierarchy in people's minds. Of course that is not the emphasis here.

I get the sense that it is more common for people to focus on the spiritual stages of alchemy. Perhaps with the goal of spiritual freedom. Or perhaps these stages are more accessible for learning and guidance. I believe it has been said that the ming methods are more hidden, or perhaps have been lost in the past. As in ming 性 and xing 命. It does seem curious that, while quite healthy, many masters do still appear to be under the influence of aging. It also is written that one allows one's "incense stick" to run its course, "ascending" to the realms beyond after shedding one's physical shell. In this sense I wonder if the goal for alchemy needs to include complete reversal of the ming to a youthful state, or just enough replenishment and refinement of the ming for the needs of completing the elixir. It would appear that many of the side-effects of alchemy include unlocking any number of siddhis, which of course are not the point. Does replenishing the skin to the state where it feels newly born and smells like flower blossoms assist in the goal of alchemy? Does scar-tissue prevent immortal ascension? I doubt one's hair color influences creating the jindan directly, but is it possible for one to have enough of what could replenish the hair color in order to create the jindan, without having been circulated in the proper ways necessary to return the hair color? Or perhaps it is related to how far one is able to refine their elixir? So I am curious - is reclaiming youth in the fullest sense necessary, or does it depend on where one's goal is set? Though I doubt any of us here can claim any authority on this subject. Personally I'm not one for shortcuts. If one is humble and sincere, one will find what one needs and one's destiny will come into alignment. In some cases it might take longer (lifetimes) than others, but that is no reason to stray from the dao.

Took a series of this sunset as the clouds rolled in a couple years ago. Randomly stumbled over them just now. Seems one should go here. Oh, and 5 minutes earlier, looking the other direction: That bank of clouds was rapidly moving in. The misty arm on the left of the first picture is the beginning of what is seen in the second picture. Was quite humbling to be in the middle of.

This is a good point. However, we need to remember how ancient the Yi is. Zhou Dynasty, maybe Shang? The commentaries on the lines and the Yi as a whole are records (back when keeping records was rare) over time. These records are a type of technology - like a map - of how far these peoples had been able to read into the Yi. These records were added to over the ages, expanding and refining the map. There is always bias, everywhere. How does an un-initiated person's bias compare to an entire lineage of effort? One can come to learn a great deal about the Yi, but it does take time and effort for the subtleties to unveil themselves. But if one isn't interested in getting to the root, it is simple enough to get the general idea from a thorough understanding of the trigrams. Heaven and Earth are like Yang and Yin, made up of layers. The primordial ingredients of the Universe. Something and Nothing. Full and Empty. The heart of every trigram is the middle line, even though that is not always the dominant line. A yang trigram is one with a single yang line. A yin trigram is one with a single yin line. Why? Because those single lines tend to be a dominant force in the resulting dynamic. So when we take the heart of heaven and the heart of earth, and switch them, we get fire and water. Why? Well fire is a yin line surrounded by two yang lines. Like a candle flame, there is something to see around the edges, but it is clear in the middle. Or like consciousness, which is empty and clear in the middle, until it fills with thoughts. The two surrounding yang lines are the false yang, and the middle yin is the true yin. False and true designate things that are mundane vs celestial; contrived vs primordial. The true is often embedded within the false, just like when we take something and create something new, the original is embedded within the new manifestation. Creation upon creation upon creation creates a lot of noise, and fire likes to create, to fill the deep and quiet emptiness with manifestation. This is why people have monkey minds that cannot stop thinking. In stillness, the noise eventually goes away, and clarity ensues. A light that is bright and clear is easier to navigate by than one that flickers. Thus fire is known as clarity and illumination, and also wildness and impatience. In harmony it brings warmth to what is cold, softens what is stiff, expresses only that which needs to be heard. Water is a single yang line surrounded by two yin lines. The true yang surrounded by the false yin, making it easy to reach for the true, yet end up in the false. Like crossing a great river, one does not just swim across. One carefully plans, perhaps crafting a vessel, and even then is likely to get wet. Just as Fire represents consciousness, Water represents the subconscious. Great wisdom is held within water, and intuition is required to access it. It is easy to get lost in the dark; one must be sincere and stick to what is true in one's heart, in order to find the true light within water. Water represents depth and poignancy, danger and the abyss, and yet contains the true heart of yang from Heaven. Thunder has one yang line under two yin lines. This first solid line is like the spark of something, a powerful CLAP in the silence. It easily arouses things into motion, as those two yin lines are happy to invite all manner of creation based on that initial burst. Thunder represents action, movement, the intentional use of energy. Mountain has one yang line above two yin lines. This top line is like the solid outline of a mountain, and the two yin lines underneath it are contained and hidden from view. Mountain is a container, sealing and providing stability. When that top line remains firm, and the mountain is still, it receives the celestial energy of the heavens upon it. When that top line is weak, the container leaks out what it was holding under pressure within. Mountain and Thunder, stillness and movement, are each contained within the other. One may learn to act when one needs to and become still when one does not need to act, returning within. Wind has a single yin line beneath two yang lines. It represents that which penetrates and stirs things up, blows things about, and is a medium for change. While Thunder is a yang force of activity, Wind is a yin force. Wind is only created as a change between forces of different temperament. When these forces create wind, it can be used as a pressure, to drive something forward, or to spread something out. Lake has a single yin line above two yang lines. It represents the state where firmness has built up beyond the half-way point, such that one feels joyous in one's possession, be that of health or wealth. And while the dynamic of Lake, or Swamp, is to allow things to continue to settle and build, the joyous feeling often causes one to spend what one has. Lake is related to feelings of sensation, and of the balance between instant gratification and delayed gratification. When one is still and allows the settling dynamic of lake to unfold, this is like non-doing, and transformation ensues. Heaven represents firmness of energy. This energy can easily become forceful, using its power with strength rather than flexibility. When people do not know how to be firm and contain the fullness of their energy, it often bursts out unconstrained, like on the full moon. When heavenly energy is held together it can be a powerful creative source to fuel a project. When nourished within it can preserve one's life force. Earth represents adaptability and receptivity. Space and time allow all things to unfold within them. The planet earth allows it's soils and minerals to be shaped and used to support life. In its receptivity it can also be a force to draw one's energy into creation. The old saying when walking in the woods of leaving only footprints applies here. It is sometimes difficult to avoid littering when the host does not complain. Things exist so we shape them. But do we need to? ----- So putting it all together, you might get a hexagram like: Heaven under mountain. The heavenly creative energy is being contained and compressed beneath the mountain. Power that is harnessed, assuming the mountain's seal holds its integrity. Water under lake. The lake here represents a pool of water, or substance, that is positioned over an abyss, something much bigger than the lake. Thus exhaustion is likely. Lake under thunder. Internal sensations that control the external actions. Fire over mountain. Firm foundation below that presents multiple routes for the fire to travel, but once it reaches the top where will it go? Traveling and transience. Thunder under Fire. Action before illumination. If one is able to still one's actions until illumination arrives, one might be able to get somewhere. And so on. I've only been studying for a few years now, and I'm only beginning to find the logic in some of the connections between the trigram images and the commentary meanings. But all of it is deeply poignant. Good luck!

Sure. Just use the trigrams. The trigrams are like elemental forces. The Yi is a study of one elemental force interacting with another. Elemental forces are subtle things. In other words, there is more to them beneath the surface than appears on the surface. The better one is able to understand these subtleties, the better one understands the message being sent when looking at a hexagram. The Yi covers many different paradigms, and to understand them all thoroughly one needs the ability to see from multiple perspectives. The commentaries help one to do this. The longer one studies, the more one understands why some commentaries are so strange. When one is able to use any hexagram line as a principle to be matched to multiple real-life situations, one has graduated from the need for commentaries. Also, there are many ways of divining a hexagram for purposes like this. The number of words a person says in a conversation, paired with their demeanor. The number of knocks on the front door paired with the time of day. Thinking of a random multi-digit number and compressing it. Look into Plumb Blossom Numerology for more info. The more one practices such techniques with sincere intent, the more these can grow into a potent kung fu.

Oh, as an aside, in the monthly animal cycle, Dragon is known as an entrepreneurial force. Dragon is primarily an Earth phase of energy, and it is situated between the Wood of Spring, and the Fire of Summer. Wood is like energy. Fire is the expression of the energy. So if we want, as entrepreneurs, to capitalize on this energy that is going to ignite, we simply shape it. We take the wood, and move it into configurations where it will burn with an effect that we desire. So this is another way to understand the reading - to be successful as an entrepreneur, you don't want to move one branch into a fire pit. It won't burn for long, and not many people will notice. You want to move a lot of wood into place, perhaps spelling letters, on a mountainside, that people will see from afar when it begins to burn. Thus your task is to take your time with the positioning of the resources available to you before trying to capitalize on them quickly. Go deep and find the root! But hey! If you are going to take this advice and use it to some success, just remember - this advice came from the dao. Really listen to your heart and make your success something that will nurture the dao, nurture balance. The world is full enough with entrepreneurs who violate the dao.

Ah, these are possibly the two hexagrams I've studied the most. Oddly enough I just spent the day helping a 22 person move, and I am a 26 person. Both of these hexagrams are very similar: The trigram Mountain ☶ is a containing force. Mountain on top is like the outer container of an inner something. In hexagram 22 it is containing fire ☲. In hexagram 26 it is containing heaven ☰. This containment acts like a compressing force on fire and heaven. The top line of mountain is responsible for this containment and expression. When the top line is not strong, it allows what it contains to escape - much like a volcano. When fire is contained and compressed, it becomes a powerful creative force. When heaven is contained and compressed, it becomes a powerful force of knowledge. It is perfectly fine to ask the Yi about situations. It actually excels at giving answers about situations. The challenge is merely one of interpretation. Thus for beginners it can be very helpful to ask more specific questions. The situation you described above sounds like it is on your mind a lot, and that you were very sincere in your intent to discover an answer. This is very good, as it helps one receive a clear answer. Your situation describes the dynamic of hexagram 22 very well. Remember, we have two primary forces at work here. The force of containment, and the force of the pressure that builds up when creative energy is contained. Naturally the strength of the container is only going to hold things until they build up to a certain pressure, and then it will release them. This is what you are describing in terms of all the creative projects that you have worked on. Hexagram 22 is known to some as Adornment, Embellishment, and Grace. What happens is that when the creative power within releases it into the external, one is adorning, or embellishing oneself. Like someone who wears rings on every finger and lots of necklaces. Or someone who is always buying the latest gadgets and aware of the latest trends. However, when one turns within and strengthens their container, sealing the creative energy within and stabilizing it, it becomes inner illumination and clarity, and one needs little in the way of extravagance to be happy. Even though this person may appear plain from a material, superficial sense, it is still very apparent that such a person is containing an inner grace. So the dynamic you described in your situation is that of trying to create new ideas on this superficial layer and constantly hoping they succeed, but really they don't have deep enough roots to do so, because the intent behind their inception is rooted in your desire to get rich quick. The changing line is line 2, and line 2 is the center of Fire, and the center of Heaven - the heart of the energies that are being compressed. My read is that you are being shown this line because that is your key. It is when this line is able to become something more real, because you are able to contain it within you, that you will be able to turn it into something that can be of lasting value to others. To do this likely requires you to develop and refine your ideas internally, over several years, while you do other things in the outside world like your day job. Don't invest money in pushing out ideas to the world that haven't had a long time to mature. Your gift lies in the capacity to create something, maybe only one thing, that is truly great, but you could waste this potential by spending your energy on hundreds of things that won't catch. So take some time. Just do your day-to-day. Forget about seeking the answer. Forget about creating anything. It'll come on its own. When it does, don't leap on it. There may be other things that come. Be patient. Over time what comes will lead you to explore it in greater depth. Do so, and try not to talk about it with others. Take the time to let it fully build within your container. It'll let you know when its ready. Be firm.

I feel like this thread could use a good dose of this.