Daeluin

It is a pretty good point that these forums could disappear at any moment. There are any number of reasons why this could happen. Especially these days with sophisticated hackers and botnets. The future is ever changing and largely unknown for most of us. So much of what has been built up here is based on trust and good will. Look how far it has brought us. I've only been here a short while relative to many of you, and your contributions are part of what drew me to start posting regularly here. And should it disappear tomorrow I will look happily move on with fond memories. In any case, even if a user did go rogue and deleted a slew of posts they were not supposed to, it would be caught and very easily undone. All the removed posts show up in a single place, and all a mod needs do is scroll down the page clicking "Restore." Nothing is deleted.

Perhaps the issue here is that the owner deliberately replaced the fence with a sign saying how and where one is allowed to trespass. Someone misread the sign and trespassed as he liked and shouted about there not being a fence, but he was missing the point.

Let's remember that he didn't press it into litigation, but once he understood, he apologized and passed some nails to help fix the fence. Certainly that's worth something. Naturally that doesn't excuse everything, but personally I'll be moving on.

That seems fair enough to me. I believe exploring potential vulnerabilities in sites one uses out-side of one's occupation is not unprofessional in the least. I'd rather my neighbor look quizzically at my fence post and give it a good kick for integrity than a random stranger. And I also believe it can be professional for this to be stated publicly. My neighbor may not feel it is his responsibility to walk the long (or short) way up to knock on my front door and hope I am home. Leaving a note on the road saying "Hey! Fix this fence post!" where I will see it is fine with me. However, setting up camp by the roadside and inviting passers by to come and look at the shoddiness of my fence, for his own entertainment... a friend of me this is not likely to make. I don't know if he heard or understood me when I told him why it was like that, and I didn't quite like it when he gaffawed at it with a few more onlookers. At least he was respectful about it when he finally got the message. In any case, who am I to judge.

I think it was a matter of time before someone tried this. TI tried it, expecting that it wouldn't work, and not realizing the rules/agreement were the only checks and balances. Again, it could have been anyone. TI reported his findings in public, and the findings were addressed. Realizing how it works, TI has been apologetic. Yes the admins are aware of how to check for these things. Nothing really unusual or unexpected happening here.

Once upon a time I was walking, and crossed paths with another being. Our eyes met, and my hackles raised. Cautiously, we edged closer, step by step. Then I was right in front of it. And I made an face that expressed my distrust and aversion before happily moving on past, knowing that even should this being attempt violence towards me, the myriad surveillance devices and counter-conduct-mechanisms would prevent it from doing anything to me. The lasers might even get it. Ahahaha. Once upon a time I was walking, and crossed paths with another being. Our eyes met, and my hackles raised. Cautiously, we edged closer, step by step. Then I simply walked on past, fully aware, and content to trust that whatever should happen, I would adapt in kind. --- While controlled environments do provide some consistent delivery of expectation, they are often inflexible. By opening the box can we explore with more freedom, though this comes at the price of exposure to the unknown. If there were resources to fuel a programming project that might be different. Speaking personally, I'm proud of what the staff has been able to do with the limitations of the software, and how the community continues to adapt to these changes.

One idea is to come up with your own routine, then use a laptop webcam to record it, then play it back with your friend when you practice. I find these things are best done solo, silent, and without casting the gaze upon anything. In a class scenario if there is someone to watch when learning that is helpful, but once one has it down one should turn the light of the mind inward. With a partner who knows the routine, one of you can simply say "change" when it is time to change. Just some suggestions. Be creative and come up with what you need. Good luck!

I believe sitting, standing, and moving are all important, for different reasons. Personally I find standing to be quite profound, for I feel more firmly rooted between heaven and earth, and my four limbs are more engaged than I am able to accomplish with sitting at this point. It is the depth of my standing and sitting that most directly results in transformation within my moving work. The moving work however is most helpful (for me) in not just dissolving blockages, but in getting the energy to move in a natural circular way. But perhaps I just don't stand enough. I believe blockages can be dissolved via standing on a deep level, especially when different arm positions are used, and taiji post stances, and that moving can dissolve them more quickly but on a surface level, less deeply, but without as much mental perseverance/patience required. Silk reeling exercises are incredibly effective at opening the joints and getting the qi to spiral from the limbs to the center. The spiraling, invisible feel of my energy sometimes after circle walking and bagua is just unlike anything else. Ultimately everything must connect to wuji, and it is very difficult to achieve this in movement. Mostly because in movement it is difficult to maintain stillness. Stillness strengthens the mind. And even where the moving may help with dissolving blockages it may not be as effective at sealing leaks as standing. I believe it is all relative. There are many tools. Combining a little bit of sitting, standing, and moving, might be very helpful. But it is also easy for things to become too complicated, so just one exercise done in full sincerity is better than several that are rushed through. Sitting after standing in different positions, or moving through different forms, can help one sense a deeper layer of what those practices have been changing.

Looks like Richard Rutt also did a complete translation of the Ten Wings that is somewhat well regarded. Here's a review.

It is common for such pressures to come to a head near the waxing of the full moon. Observing such patterns is also "daoist." When feeling like this my Sifu recommends reading some dao. One needs not understand, and may remain feeling lost. Yet I find it helps me calm down and relax. One I'd particularly recommend is Ni Hua Ching's The Uncharted Voyage Toward Subtle Light. When studying the pairs of hexagrams, we might find this polarity: 53: ䷴ Gradual Progress (wind over mountain) 54: ䷵ Making a Young Girl Marry (thunder over lake) In Liu Yiming's commentaries on the yijing, translated in Thomas Cleary's Taoist Classics Volume 4, The Taoist I Ching, in the section on pair hexagrams, this polarity is examined. Gradual Progress means going slowly, without hurry. In practicing the Tao it is important to go gradually, without hurry, so as to rest in the proper pace, calmly, without compulsion, proceeding step by step in an orderly fashion, refining the self and awaiting the proper timing. This is like the image of the hexagram, where the youngest son (mountain ☶) is paired with the eldest daughter (wind ☴) -- the woman waits for the man to go, and after that gets married. This is correct communion of yin and yang; eventually there is success, sense and nature are as one, the earthly and the celestial combine. Making a young girl marry means haste. Practice of the Tao should not be hasty, for when one rushes one indulges in arbitrary guesswork and personalistic interpretation, recklessly forcing the issue without thoroughly investigating the true principles of the Tao, seeking to attain it all at once. This is like in the image of the hexagram, where the youngest daughter (lake ☱) is paired with the eldest son (thunder ☳) -- the girl is forcibly wed before her time. This is incorrect communion of yin and yang; eventually there is failure, and one winds up alone in solitary quietism. The Tao of practice of reality is the science of discovery of truth, consummation of nature, and arrival at the meaning of life. It involves particular processes and courses of work; it requires gradual practice in order to reach profound attainment of self-realization. If you rush, eager for attainment, setting about impetuously, you may proceed quickly but will regress rapidly. How then can you corral the earthly and celestial energies into the center of your being, unite sense, nature, and intent in the original state? If you want to attain the Tao, there is no other way to do so save by the achievement of gradual cultivation. I can attest to this in my own practice. Half-hazard bursts of commitment leading to temporary glimpses and achievements. Blindly going into something I did not understand without a proper foundation and mental stillness. These things made it all too easy to evade "resting in the proper place" in terms of stability in achievements, and ultimately to regress when the lack of a foundation led to a decline in practice. Everything is an ebb and flow, a wax and wane. In daoism one focuses on a goal and intends to go all the way without regression. The way to do this is via gradualness. These things take time. Time to uncover the proper timing of things, so one knows when to still one's strength and wait, and knows when to put forth extra effort in one's work. Patience, simplicity, compassion, humility: all help one to maintain sincerity.

Yes, I've experienced much in this way. Unfortunately I was receiving pieces of things that I only mentally understood on a surface level. The past two years studying the principles found in the classics have been like learning a language that can help decode the transmission. Naturally the human mind shouldn't be controlling these things, but I think it can be helpful if the human mind is better tapped into awareness of proper timings within change. My sense is that part of the transmission comes from the lineage, and the lineage is connected to the classics. Liu Yiming has a bit on thoroughly investigating principle, and he also talks about this in his commentary on hexagram 21. My sense is that one needs to understand before one can forget, so as to avoid making mistakes. Similar to how one may more easily find the center of the circle after the circle is fully drawn. Also I recommend reading David Twickens actual articles on hun and po in acupuncture today, rather than just the article about the articles. http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28516 http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28537 In particular it makes more sense to me that the associations of the hun and po to the east and west directions in the magic square (lo shu) are where the 3 and 7 come from, rather than the 7 orifices.

OK, so I'm guessing you mean the differences between "training hun to coexist with po": And the article's description of training the po to transform into hun: My first sense is that these substances are in a type of polarity, and that one should not dominate the other, but a balance should be achieved. In normal cultural conditions these days it is likely that the po does dominate, and given that the po is more substantive and the hun easily escapes, many people end up dominated by po and unable to embody the hun. I recommend studying hexagrams 54 and 17 to understand this dynamic. The hun-po, metal-wood dynamic is expressed here through the trigrams of thunder (wood) and lake (metal). Liu Yiming, in the Taoist I Ching (tl Cleary) points out that when the hun and the po are in a separating dance, the hun tends to go off on its own, and then the po tends to control it via emotional demands, always interfering with the potential freedom of the hun. This is described in hexagram 54. In hexagram 17, the hun is brought to focus on the po, thus the two integrate back into each other. The po softens, becomes lighter, and more of the hun is able to embody as the ego is dissolved. So while the hun often needs to be increased, without the po it would simply fly away. When the hun is able to focus within, with the help of the yi-intention, the emotional insecurities of the po can be answered, softening its hardened patterns and allowing more room for the hun to embody. Same concept of cleaning one's home. If it is dirty all the time one might discover they don't want to spend much time there. But after doing the work to clean it, it becomes much brighter. So we might say the way to increase the hun is to remind the blissful-freedom seeking nature of the hun that sometimes work must be done in order to shape an environment one will feel free to exist inside of.

So first of all, I'm not sure what opposites you are referring to, but... Just be sure you aren't confusing the yi (意) of the five shen/spirits, which represents earth/spleen, with the yi (乙) of the ten celestial stems, which represents yin wood and the eastern direction/phenomena. When yi and xin are used together like this, I'd relate them to the celestial stems. I've only read of the five shen/spirits as related to the yin organs, and these are emphasized in various texts on internal alchemy, like Wang Liping's manual for example. As hun and po are often associated with wood and metal, and with the liver (yin wood) and the lungs (yin metal), respectively, it does seem logical to associate them with yi (yin wood) and xin (yin metal). Chung said: The dragon is yang in nature. It flies in the sky, and when it roars, clouds are born and the ten thousand things are moistened. Its primal form is the green dragon, its directions are jia and yi [east]; its element is wood, its season is spring; and in the ways of humanity , it represents benevolence. Its trigram is zhen, and in the body it is the liver. The tiger is yin in nature. It runs on the ground, and when it cries, winds blow in the mountains and all the insects are subdued. Its primal form is the white tiger; its directions are geng and xin [west]; its element is metal; its season is autumn; and in the ways of humanity, it represents integrity and honor. Its trigram is dui, and in the body it is the lungs. I recommend continuing to read this section from Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji, in the Dragon Tiger chapter, here translated by Eva Wong in The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality, The Teachings of Chung and Lu. There is also a translation in Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu, at the end, for comparison. Not having the book in question I cannot really comment, but if it lines up with the rest of the quote from Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji in principle, then just follow your heart.

For me it depends on what is meant by non-existence. Is it one of those underlying layers that pre-exists our modern material realm, or something else? And if it is just one of these layers that is closer to the root, then is there something saying there cannot be a shaping there? When one ascends all the way in daoism, some classics say one returns to the 3 islands and ten continents to live out one's days in the realm of the jade emperor, buddha, lao zi, and all the other immortals. I won't pretend to really understand this. But if this is the case, I can't say that these beings or this realm isn't a part of the non-existence that nurtures existence. But I'd agree that non-existence doesn't seem like the most descriptive word for all of this.

Balance within change.

Movements in taiji quan are snakelike: watery, fluid, seamless, sensitive, coiling. A strike issues forth like lightning and always returns back to its center afterward. Taiji begins with slow motion to tap into these watery flowings, gently coaxing them out of hiding, building and refining their tides by integrating them with the light of the spirit until the heaviness of the water is no longer a burden, but moves with a mysterious light. The snake is territorial and very sensitive to threats, but also shares burrows with other creatures and is humble, ever resting upon the lowest places, its body not lifted away from the surface of that which supports it. Cold-blooded, yet needing warmth to live, ever seeking to soak in the rays of the sun. Calm, still, patient. In daoist alchemy the light-nature and the life-essence are merged back as one. There are multiple layers of merging. Among them are the hun and po, the upper and lower souls. The hun is likened to wood: light, expansive, opening, floating, innocent. It is easily pushed away and upon death is said to leave until it returns again in reincarnation, ever seeking to unify with the po yet unable to force the po to accept itself. The po is likened to metal: dense, heavy, easily contaminated, shaped into patterns and hardened like a tool. It is sensitive and easily hurt, holds onto traumas, becoming ever more heavy and hardened by each one. When the hun and the po merge, the substance and medicine of the spiritual embryo is formed. The golden elixir is likened to the metal of the po that has been heated, softened, purified, so that it can embrace the light of the hun as something that is beyond tarnish and contamination, much like gold. Perhaps this golden snake worn about the head can be likened to the heavy, shadowy metals of the lower emotional soul that have been accepted, refined, purified, and fused with light. No doubt there are parallels to many beliefs, all united in truth.

Thank you for the description. That also resonates with my experience, and this sounds like something I'd like to read. Does he go into any more detail with the other celestial stems, or just yi and xin? I started studying BaZi last year, and was quite pleased when principles used in Chinese Astrology started shining through in daoist neidan classics. I gather at least some of this alchemical terminology emerged "first" in the cantong qi, which heavily integrates cosmological cycles with the alchemical work. It is nice to hear of a modern work in english using this vocabulary.

The obvious connection is through the five phases. hun and po are commonly associated with wood and metal. In the 10 Celestial Stems: yi (乙) = yin wood xin (辛) = yin metal More context would be nice too.

What a great topic! After reading the replies, all of which are fantastic, I feel aroused to further elaboration. In my post I hoped to describe what my Sifu might call coming to know one's self before trying to know others. How well one gets to know one's self depends on how far one is willing to go. Being in the world, but not of it, does not mean one hides one's self away from the world in the physical sense. Indeed this would be missing out on many opportunities for refinement. It is the very challenges that life brings to us which allow us to overcome blockages and leaks in our energies, showing us where we need to heal and become whole. Liu Yiming speaks on this here and in other places: 47. Barrier of emptiness 着空关 If seeking only to achieve emptiness in a secluded place in deep mountains, far away from society and people, abandoning family and children, and thinking that oneself is higher than the others, then one can easily fall in the trap of emptiness. Real emptiness is not empty. Zhuangzi speaks on Walking Two Roads, where one manages an internal dynamic that is of an entirely different scope from others one might encounter in the world. If one tries to demonstrate powers, showcasing this difference in scope, it is like installing a siphon, draining one into the other so that equilibrium will be achieved. Normal people develop many blockages and siphons, with the patterns they learn to relate to their environment and each other through. Codependency is a common example. In becoming a whole person, one dissolves the blockages and seals the leaks. Sharing with others is fine - one is one with all after all. And yet one allows the internal to be different from the demands and expectations of the external. Understanding the nature of the external elements one encounters, one is able to harmoniously flow with them without causing them to attach to one. Just like a large tree is able to grow old and strong by being of no use to any carpenter, a sage may dress in rags and show the appearance of being of little value, despite being of great radiance, and so on. I think simplification can go a long way to developing clarity. In this way spending more time in nature is helpful, though one does not need to live entirely in nature. And in this way withdrawing from social engagements can be helpful, though one need not withdraw from all engagements. It is absolutely detrimental to go against ones nature - it only brings suffering and imbalance trying to do so. ~ Netero We all need to discover our own natural balance. This can be difficult as there is much habit-momentum developed. The things we've done day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year, have an established momentum. Being able to see through this momentum can also bring us clarity and help us identify what parts of it belong to our true nature. In stillness, with the emotions settled and at peace, one can wander the world in a state of calm. Bearded Dragon's post recalled something I remember from a text. It is common for one's yang to be at the tip of the tongue, always ready to engage. When one brings one's yang more deeply within one's center, and greets the world with yin, it is like hexagram 11, tranquility. And yet, even though one's yang is withdrawn, as soon as one needs to share something with the world, there is a spark and the yang emerges and then withdraws again. It is a dance, a balance. 37 衜恆亡爲也 The Way is effortless; 侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it, 而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作 And life will take care of itself; 將貞之以亡名之樸 Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood; 夫亦將智 If a man knows this, 智足以朿萬勿將自定 He knows enough to make life steady itself

The intertwining triangles reminds me of something. I was going through some rather... expansive changes, and new teachers started showing up. I was perfectly content with my daoist training and school, but I allowed myself to explore a new school. It was a beautiful school linked to a wonderful tradition. There was an emphasis on working with crystals, though mainly one's sincerity of intention to one's path. I ended up not sticking around, as some things felt more contrived than the daoist system, but perhaps I didn't stick around long enough for my energy to integrate with the new environment. One particular that bothered me though, was the wearing of a particular stone that was connected to a higher vibration, perhaps similar to this 8th chakra. In particular it was worn in the merkaba shape. It was used to protect/maintain one's connection to this higher energy. This past week I wandered into a stone shop and believe I found the stone that was used, and so I looked up information on it. I thought about using it, but when I consulted the yijing I received hexagram 2 line six: Dragons battle in the field; the blood is dark yellow. An assertive and ambitious attempt is made to usurp power from an authority. A violent struggle will follow, resulting in injury to both parties. When the magnetic principle tries to lead, when the ego tries to direct the Work, a devastating conflict erupts in the psyche. So I took this to mean I needed to do my own work.

The dao is often paradoxial. I was watching a movie recently, where a daughter secretly saw her mother kissing another man, and he said What if he catches us? She replied I don't care about him. The daughter hated her mother for this for a long time after that, until one day her father told her he had cheated first. He explained how she waited 6 months for him to return to her, and asked him to have the decency to do the same if their positions were ever reversed. Once the daughter heard this, it completely nullified her reasons to hate her mother. My point is that we often can draw conclusions that seem right, but might be misinformed. Just like optical illusions. From one perspective things seem clear, logical, and so on, and in knowing this, we take action. Alas, all too often, this action is taken without awareness of all perspectives, and what we thought led to balance actually led to greater imbalance. When we practice acceptance, and rest upon all that guides us, we become very aware of how we are pushed and pulled around in this world. All we need to do is learn to remain balanced within these guiding forces, and in learning to discover our balance, we use what controls us to create refinement and harmony within. On the flip side, when we use the resources available to us to make decisions and perform actions that ripple out into the world, then we are constantly responsible for the things that ripple back to us. As long as we keep creating and acting, it is difficult to recognize where we really stand, difficult to find where the balance lies. When we withdraw and learn to cultivate stillness, we begin to shed layers of these ripples, until a calm, a peace develops internally, and we become aware of things at a greater depth. From this new perspective, it becomes easier to respond to the world in a way that helps to maintain this internal balance. But a certain freedom can be helpful to maintain this. The freedom to change one's environment when it threatens one's internal balance. Like learning to stop eating when one is full. Or ending a conversation when one's mind is too full. Sometimes if the other person does not wish to end the conversation, removing one's self from their presence is an option. It if is not, perhaps one learns to summon greater will power to assimilate the words that are overwhelming one's ability to maintain inner peace. And in this way one ebbs and flows across the world, flowing like the water in a river. The river doesn't chose its path, it ever follows the lowest path before it, sometimes twisting, turning, settling to rise up over a blockage, falling over a cliff and spreading out into mist, and so on, allowing the dao to guide it naturally, without getting in the way. But sometimes systems are implemented that interfere with the way of natural balance. Everything balances out in the end, and thus everything is natural. And yet things that have been headed toward balance and harmony may be perceived to be changed by some new systems and end up heading away from balance and harmony. We can see this in a cancer cell, that decides to form it's own cluster of cell tissue, growing and assimilating and creating it's own system of balance... even as it ends up going against the pre-existing balance of the system it works to assimilate. In the end it destroys the system it worked to assimilate, and dies itself when the system can no longer support it. Some might look at human society in much the same way. Rather than living under the sun and stars, one decides to protect oneself behind four walls and a roof. Perhaps one attempts to separate oneself from the balance of nature and create one's own balance. But this new balance is still within the old balance, and those walls still end up interacting with the old balance. Bugs end up getting into the new place and one has to enforce the rules of the new balance by dealing with the bugs if they aren't allowed in the new balance. The walls block the harmony of the outer balance from entering into the new balance, and so the new balance needs to create means for harmonization or it won't be a balanced system at all. Fast forward to fields where only one food-bearing species is cultivated, another lack of balance, and then the predators of that species multiply much more quickly, and towns and roads that interrupt the flow of water when it pours and creates floods, and so on. The newly desired ideal for human balance is ever at odds with the reality of the existing natural balance. And then when ecosystems cannot support maintenance of the old balance, the old balance begins to deteriorate. And when the new balance begins to gain a long history and momentum, becoming more balanced with its many moving parts, this new balance becomes that much more powerful, even if it remains a destructive force to the old balance. Zhuangzi has a section about this, related to Robber Zhi. It is noted how Sages whom nurture and advise Emperors may be benefiting the world in a few instances, yet injuring it in many, even as the reverse might be said of robbers and thieves. And at the same time he elaborates on the case of Robber Zhi, who wages war on human civilization, which might be called an act of intentional rebalancing, and yet still would be deemed perverted and not following the way. Whatever our perception of balance in the external, it is true that we can only truly know our own selves from the inside-out, and all else from the outside-in. Thus whom are we to presume to actively change the external realm? We already know that by leaving things alone, they will naturally come to balance - and perhaps all the more quickly without our intervention. And too we can discover that by minding out own internal balances, we will naturally be influencing the external balances in a non-prejudiced way, simply by being. Internally cultivating one's center, externally accepting and trusting, the paradoxes of the dao cease to be a trap for one's ego.

I haven't studied the tarot in depth or anything, but wandering into a used book store today, there was a Tarot 101 book by Kim Huggens staring at me, and so I opened it to the magician section and liked what I read. Here's a bit: I had already been intrigued by the idea of the hands pointing to heaven and earth, for in the bagua eight mother palms I practice, this posture activates the spark of thunder into the post-celestial change. In one of the ten wings of the Yijing, the Shougua (tl Zhongxian Wu), the pre-celestial arrangement of the trigrams is described: Heaven and Earth settle into their positions; Mountain and Lake intermingle their Qi; Thunder and Wind intertwine with each other; and Water and Fire do not repel each other. The Eight Trigrams interconnect with one another. To learn where we are going is the forward way. To know where we have come from is the reverse way. And then the post-celestial arrangement of the trigrams is described: Supernatural Being makes everything emerge from Thunder. All things are well arranged in Wind, meet each other in Fire, obtain nourishment in Earth, celebrate in Lake, interact in Heaven, return in Water, and achieve in Mountain. The connection is pretty clear to me. The Magician pointing his wand or hands is just like how everything emerges from thunder, giving the ten thousand things momentum and direction, shaping the forces under which they will be grown, connected, matured, transformed, enlightened, realized, and accomplished.

When our energy is more specifically shaped and polarized in set ways, it is difficult for our energy to harmoniously integrate into patients we may treat, or other things we may interact with. Perhaps to some it is desired, to others, undesired. Trying to heal someone who closes off to your presence might be rather awkward. When our energy is more unified, clear, whole, with little polarity, it is more easily absorbed and integrated within our patient and other things we may interact with. There is less about the shaping of our energy that influences others, and it becomes more subtle and less noticeable to others as well, and easy for them to use it as though it was their own, absorbing it and shaping it as though they were pulling on their own reserves. Words are simply tools. As our perspective within the dao changes, the tools we might use to return to the dao also change. Words may be more or less refined, and felt as necessary to those who depend on words in their daily lives. As one evolves beyond the need for words to connect to the dao, there is no need to remain attached to the tool.

The Forum and Tech Support area might be what you want. This can also be found by going to http://thedaobums.com/ and scrolling down the list of forums - it should appear near the bottom, "The Pavilion", under "Off Topic".

That's my conclusion. Also I've was told a while back that it wasn't desired for the semen threads to be hidden somewhere because so many people come here to ask those questions. So while I think these threads should be moved to the men's (public) area to both clean things up and to give a reason to use the men's areas, it seems there is too much resistance to this idea. Which ultimately returns to the concept of yang avoiding containment.