Daeluin

To cultivate oneself, And to serve all universal things, There is nothing better than adhering to the principle of pursuing extreme frugality. Pursuing extreme frugality can be further explained as giving up all desires and passions. Giving up all desires and passions can further lead to undertaking the cultivation of Te, Undertaking the cultivation of Te can further lead to overcoming all, Overcoming all, then Te can fill up the vast infinitude, Filling up the vast infinitude with Te can lead to the arising of a state, A state will grow up to become the mother, And gaining the mother, one can last for an enduring long time without any end to speak of. This is called having deep roots and a firm foundation, The course leading to the eternal Tao and an enduring vision. daodeching 59, Hu Xuezhi

Together

Yes, I agree very much. In hexagram 18 there what is stirred up is brought into light so we can work on cleansing it in a contained environment. In hexagram 44 if things aren't held together there is a scattering of forces, and I find the lesson to be one of endurance. I'm still learning about this new cycle; it is more subtle and new to me. Just after the full moon is another hexagram 44 dynamic, and I frequently see a lot of reactivity during these times, and not a lot of learning happening. Usually there is some trigger that sets everyone off. I had just noticed one of these triggers in my own life, and figured I might share a word here, but it's probably nothing.

Sean has entrusted the moderators here with making those sorts of decisions on his behalf. He's said before that he stands behind any of their decisions. No one is making decisions about the Mo Pai community, just about the behavior of individual members. If an individual member is banned and then another comes up from the same group, with the same message and the same debate, it is going to begin to look like the whole group is acting with one voice, and will develop a reputation like the one you are defending against. But it becomes very clear that you are not interest in seeing this. I've seen many threads closed before they reach the course this one has, and feel that much tolerance is being exercised here. Personally I feel this thread has become a broken record, and it doesn't look like anything is going to change. So I am making my exit here. Just a warning, but I've been following the hexagram moon cycle spoken of in the cantong qi, and tonight is hexagram 44, so I recommend we all be on the guard to preserve our energy, lest it unravel.

I hear what you are saying, KenBrace. My advise would be to respond to such offenders with humility and compassion. Something like I hear what you are saying, and if you would like to open a thread with specific examples of practices that are harmful, I or others would be happy to respond to your concerns there. Something like this is less likely to derail a thread or result in a flame war. Denying the person, reacting to their words, or attacking them in return, in my experience, just causes the issue to escalate. Compassionate responses are more difficult, but also go hand in hand with principles spoken of in the daodejing, which many of us here try to practice. I'll be the first to admit that many here are pretty reactive and could learn a lot from seeing the unintentional loaded quality of their proclamations. I think pretty much everyone has good intentions though, on both sides. In any case, I think the answer is not to be found in any sort of rule changes, moderator changes, etc, but in learning to compose our communications so that it is difficult for them to cause offense, even when - especially when - we are attacked by others.

Yes, you follow the letter of the policies pretty well. But you don't seem to understand that your refusal to accept the actions of others is beating a dead horse. When were you going to let it go? Your actions indicated that politely or not, you had no intention to drop the matter, and this is why I believe you were suspended. No doubt this can add fuel to the fire for those who eat up any excuse to label the mods here as unfair. Children seem to fall into similar patterns, looking for any reason their opponent in a petty fight was at wrong. "Well he started it, and look I can push his buttons and see he's about to punch me again but I didn't do anything wrong, did you see it?" Meanwhile the teacher who intervened is doing everything their power to just get them to drop it, wisely knowing that neither of them are really wrong. This is the point of suspensions. Hey, take a little time to yourself. If you continue to come to school every day after your suspension with the singular fixation on pushing little Billy's buttons, we'll have to kick you out for good. I hear that you see potential in this community, and I urge that upon your return you seek to contribute to the harmony here, rather than attaching to dead ends. It is sad to see people forced out simply because they have trouble letting things go.

I actually hear what you are saying. When multiple people act up and get moderated, and they all fly the same banner, it is easy to lump them into the same group, and natural for others to make assumptions about this group, whether or not they are completely true. Oddly enough I've received spiritual teachings warning about this phenomena. It seems certain spiritual schools can manipulate energy in ways that becomes offensive to various subtle spiritual elements, and these spiritual elements become drawn into a polarity with that school. Someone who joins this school and begins practicing that school's qigong is targeted just as much as any of the rest of them. This can can cause some struggle for this person, and it also might seem unfair. However is it not dissimilar to many people having a raging dislike for citizens of the USA, even the ones who do not intentionally support the actions of its agencies. By paying taxes we are still supporting those actions, even if we are unaware, and so we end up paying the consequences of those actions all the same. Rather makes me wonder if there are any who are part of the Mo Pai group who do agree that the actions of some of it's members are a bit unharmonious. If people from a school I attend started developing a reputation I didn't agree with, I might have a few words to say, to help remind others that they shouldn't be assuming the actions of a few are the intentions of all of its members. Funny though, how most people from the group are defending these actions and creating more disharmony. I don't know if this is the case with mopai, as I know little of mopai, but I have encountered a few energetic schools that seem to focus on powering up, and their actions clearly indicate all they care about is power. Seems to go against the principles of humility.... the very reason humility is a wisely cultivated attribute is to allow one's power to build in a way that does not draw others to fight against it. Though often those who desire power seem to welcome the opportunity to fight to prove they have power... alas these fights tend to get in the way of real discussions.

If that's the way you want to see it. Far be it from me to correct you. If that bothers you, why stick around so long fighting about it? I can only assume you like contending, and thus you are having a good time here. Yet it's odd, because it doesn't really seem like you're happy. Confusing, honestly, because if I wasn't happy about something, and I had my say and it didn't seem like things were going to change, well I'd wander on until I found a more suitable environment. So odd to me why people sometimes seem to anchor themselves in the very places they say they don't want to be. Personally, well, I'm not a mod, and I don't think mods are perfect. Obviously they aren't robots, but real people with emotions, etc. But I enjoy my time here and if that changes, honestly I'll chaulk that up to my own internal changes requiring me to move on, rather than presuming to judge others. But just my own preferences, of course. Blessings to your way, dayzhaze.

I know Mh doesn't like criticism, and I never intend to criticize him. We're all friends here. Funny though, how swimming against the current is more difficult than flowing with it. On the other hand, I think we all need to find our own currents rather than flowing with the one we're told to. And yet, if we're really centered in our own current, there tends to be less resistance from other people's currents.

(from the quotes atributed to Narew above): The irony is quite rich here. Golden rule? If people could learn to happily accept the medicine they feel others deserve, the world would become quickly more balanced. So common for people to hold to double standards, thinking it OK to judge others while being unwilling to trust the judgment of others on themselves in return.

Well first of all, I don't know anything. The moment I think I know something, that awareness of knowing is attaching to de rather than allowing de to be. How can one have a perspective of something without separating from being it in totality, or without creating and stepping into a fracture within totality to allow observation? So all of my ideas, concepts, principles, are merely crutches to help me get closer to the point where maybe one day I will be able to slip away from all of it and simply be. Once I get there, I doubt I would have any interest in explaining it, as that would take me out of it again. I sense there are different layers of awakening, and different layers of being in the world but not of it. Some may allow discussion of it, or appearing to discuss it, without removing oneself from it. But to completely return 100% of one's de to dao, I don't think any intention is used to formulate concepts or make any decisions to use one's de again... which seems to be the point chapter 38 is trying to express.

Those who know, don't speak those who speak, don't know

higher power is unaware of power this is therefore whole power lower power is aware of power this is therefore division of power higher power has no doing there is nothing it does lower power does there is something it does (just working out what makes most sense to me from translations of the characters in chapter 38 of the daodejing) When we think about the rule that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, then we can come to see that anything that uses power, thus divides that power. So for the power to remain whole, there can be no actions to divide it from it's most pure ("virtuous") state.

Well, this excerpt from Zhuangzi points out that Sages who advise for empires built upon the evil deeds of the past may help the world in some instances and inure it in many, even as those such as Robber Zhi may do the same, not unlike superheroes or vigilantes from comic books. As for absolutes of good and evil, how do we qualify them as being absolute? Precisely because we cannot absolutely know what chosen actions are good vs evil in any situation, any actions we choose may be both at once, and I believe this is partly why such actions are labeled as inferior uses of De. Remember, virtue is not really a complete translation of De.

Yep. Balance is a fine line. Whenever there is a focal point where everything meets, like in a body, or a home, or a community, to ensure proper health requires the constructive functioning of all the components. If one part begins to act up and trash the others, the entire system is going to fall apart, unless measures are taken. Change is inevitable, and attachment to temporary constructs as though they are permanent is unwise, but while it is possible to keep them healthy, it makes sense to do so.

Do you escort your liver to the door when it gets too imbalanced from your other organs?

Yeah, I figured is was meant more humorous. Tests like these are a pet peeve, as I can never answer them truthfully, since they don't allow it. I'm happy to provide others with fuel for change, but I am unwilling to presume what is right for others. We are all so beautiful and unique. This seems related to the theme of this thread. I wonder why it feels OK for some people to force others towards specific actions. Isn't that bullying? Seems ironic that bullies seem to think it is OK for them to push others around, but it is not OK for them to get pushed back in return. Well look... if you start pushing me around, doing things I don't like, and my family doesn't like, don't be offended if I close the door in your face. And if you insist on coming back to my door year after year, well that's just sad. Don't you have better things to do? Are you really taking care of yourself? Please do take care of yourself. If taking care of yourself means bullying others, that is your choice. However just know that this usually invites someone who comes to bully you in return. Doesn't sound super healthy to me. Just a self-perpetuating cycle of violence.

As someone who never tries to control others, I'd have a difficult time answering how well I'm usually able to control people. Even if I disagree completely, that could still indicate I attempt to control others, meaning I take action based on the expectation of results. I rather dislike all types of tests like that, as they tend to force answers that are untrue or inevitably conflicting, painting a complete misrepresentation of reality.

This is a fundamental principle, and so it is subtle, and there are many applications and perspectives. If something exists, and someone comes to oppose it, these two oppositional forces maintain each other, mutually defending against the other. If one vanished, what need would the other have for defensiveness? Then the opposition would vanish, and the militant posturing would vanish, and the result would be more openness. This is easy to see in relationships, where one person judges another, or feels attacked by another. It often is unintentional, some subtle difference between the two triggering a discomfort that pushes them away from each other. And then one reacts, asking why the other had to do that, and the other becomes defensive not feeling like they did anything, and both people become polarized. When people have unhealthy patterns, and their friends try to intervene, it is common for them to become defensive, and then they aren't open to change. However, if instead of trying to force the person to accept their issues, the friend shares space and is compassionate and nurturing, openness is cultivated between the two, and rather than feeling threatened and becoming closed off the person becomes more open and more likely to bring up their issues and cultivate desire for healing on their own. The dao de jing speaks of country's that fight each other, saying it makes more sense for them to simply allow the invasion. If there is never any fighting, but the one country embraces the desires of the invading country freely, it is less likely there will be as much violence and pillaging, and when the invaders settle, they cannot help but be influenced by the minds of the people they invaded, or vice versa. It is when we attach to one something as being the only right, that we come to resist change. It is this resistance that creates conflict and polarization. Without the resistance, there is adaptation. Change is constant, and the better we are able to adapt the better we are able to evolve. Even in times of war, if we are strong and able to maintain our balance amidst catastrophic changes, we help to negate polarizing forces by dissolving their polarity and drawing them in to an ever evolving center of balance. Thus if we feel a certain religion is imbalanced, fighting against it is likely to create a strong polarity that maintains it even more than before. However, if we allow its reach to absorb us, then our inner balance draws it closer to balance as it too absorbs our balanced ideas and ways of being. If we feel a certain government is too filled with rules and regulations, we can fight against them to create our own rules and regulations, but those will eventually be fought against by others, and many polarities are created in disconnection to each other, resulting in stagnation. On the other hand, if we simply adapt to the rules, living so as not to go against them, we have room to work between the rules. If we do this out of selfish desire, perhaps we will draw opposition. However if live in a way that is centered and balanced, we are unlikely to offend others, and can build up ways of living that begin to dissolve the need for so many rules. It is the same in the body. The more we attach to knowing in order to do the right thing, the more stagnant our energy system becomes, because we are holding on to so much that efficient internal flows become inhibited. The more we find a way to adapt and flow harmoniously with our environment in simply ways, content to support ourselves without desires or ambitions, the more the attachments dissolve and health returns. It is always about finding balance between the extremes. This principle is not simply about opposition, but opposition within change. Things tend to oscillate more like a sine wave, or a spiral. Thus it becomes not so much about becoming balanced between two points on a line, but becoming balanced between all points in a circle, or sphere. Doing this returns us to the heart of things.

Also, I think this post is integral to this topic, and the themes of wuwei and ziran in general.

Reminded me of this.

Perhaps we can first look at the chinese character used in the dao de jing that is often translated as virtue: De 德. From wikipedia: De (/də/; Chinese: 德) is a key concept in Chinese philosophy, usually translated "inherent character; inner power; integrity" in Taoism, "moral character; virtue; morality" in Confucianism and other contexts, and "quality; virtue" (guna) or "merit; virtuous deeds" (punya) in Chinese Buddhism. Can we define a concept, any concept, without defining how that concept stands out against its environment? Can there be good, if we have no reference for what isn't good? All concepts are merely our identification of highs and lows from different perspectives. The more we attach to one side of a polarity, the more the other side appears to grow as well. If we attach to goodness, always on the lookout for it in ourselves and others, we naturally begin to see evil everywhere as well. When we let go of the attachment to these concepts, we can learn to reside in the center of things, harmoniously adapting to our environment as it changes. In the dao de jing, de is used to convey the concept of the power that comes from the dao. It exists as expression of all that has manifested from the dao. A simple polarity is explored using the concept of great, or superior de, and lesser, or inferior de. Superior virtue has no doing: there is nothing whereby it does. Inferior virtue does: there is something whereby it does. The key to understanding this, exists in the idea that when we make decisions about how to use our power, it is an inferior use of our power. Any action that we are controlling, is an inferior action. Why is this so? Let us imagine a realm where every action is followed by an equal and opposite reaction. And yet of course it doesn't go back and forth, but changes unfold, and myriad interactions begin to take place. At first they may be coarse, impactful, destructive. But over time they become more refined, stable, balanced. We can imagine a planet within this realm so neatly poised at the heart of this balance that life is born. Over the ages the life goes through the same changes, struggling to survive, only to all but die off, some mutated strain managing to survive, and as the ages pass many life forms begin to coexist. Again, at first their overlap might result in mutual destruction, but in time a balance is struck, and as the balance stabilizes, diversity is born. This diversity, and this ever unfolding refinement of balance can be seen everywhere in nature. There are constant challenges to this diversity being born, and sometimes it is all but wiped out. Yet again and again, this diversity builds, always on the edge of balance. The more refined the balance is able to become, stability allowing, the closer those first few reactions come to returning back toward where they were born. Now along come humans, and for a while their actions are similar to other beings, and the balance is not threatened. This species is even more balanced between the various forces, and has great potential to take that balance to even greater depths. And yet over time, this more evolved species comes to seek to control its environment, not by necessity, but by choice. And over more time, those choices have destabilized the existing paradigm of stabilized refinement. Species begin dying off, and ecosystems that relied on those species began unraveling. Forests are wiped out and deserts are born, and so on. Nothing out of the ordinary here, these things happen. And yet there was potential for even greater balance and refinement, but it destabilized due to choices made from desires rather than needs. Now this is highly debatable, as who can judge whether or not this too is natural. Yet this brings us back to the concept of superior virtue and inferior virtue. Virtue, power, life force. The daoist idea is that we are born with some amount of exceptionally pure energy, de, to use to live our life with. This energy courses through our various bodily systems and changes shape. In our youth this energy feels plentiful, and yet over time the source of that energy begins to run out, and we are left with the energy that has changed shape and become contaminated. More and more we come to rely on our organ systems to efficiently cycle these different types of energies rather than simply drawing upon the source of undifferentiated energy we used to have so much of. Unfortunately, often one particular organ system might become stronger than the others due to blockages and imbalances that come to interfere with the efficiency of the cyclical balances. And thus some become weak, and they struggle against one another, and eventually we die. So we can see that when all things act together, as one, as in a stable and healthy ecosystem, none of them get the upper hand, but all are able to mutually support each other. Even so, when we import a species from one continent to another continent, the balances are gone and that plant often either dies or completely takes over. So we can see that it is not that one species that is self-balancing, but that all of them together that manage to strike a balance, and it takes time. Humans, with our evolved awareness, have the potential to understand our own imbalances and correct them. Daoist internal alchemy shows how we can deliberately dissolve blockages, heal inefficient flows, and cycle the organs to most effectively utilize the energy they originally came from. Further, once this refined balance has been achieved, we can cycle back these energies in specific ways to replenish that original undifferentiated energy. And doing so, we become self-contained systems operating without need for external sustenance. Now we begin to touch upon the idea of superior virtue. Just as in the body we can effect a balancing, a healing, and a integrated return to our source, the external world has the potential for this as well. While Kudzu, or Brazillian Pepper, or Austrailian Pines, do not know how to adapt to maintain the balance, Humans do have this potential. However it is not by their intellect that they are able to do this, but it is through learning to flow so harmoniously along their way that every step they take is mutually beneficial for the integrative balance of all things. The cantong qi extends: "Superior virtue has no doing": it does not use examining and seeking. "Inferior virtue does": its operation does not rest. When the human is able to become self-sustaining, without need for external sustenance, and is able to reconnect to the energy it manifested from, it is still present within the world of actions and reactions, at some level. At this level, it has an existing momentum. Riding this momentum, as a river flowing to the ocean, one allows oneself to be carried by following the path of least resistance. Internally one does nothing, and yet the external environment is changed according to its own needs. Internally the true human is the embodiment of refined balance, and is in connection with the root of existence. Externally the true human is one with all, and in interacting with anything the change that is effected is ever naturally in the interest of greater refined balance and integration for all it encounters. This gets off a little into the realm of ideals, but one can easily experience this principle on one's own. First one needs to accept anything they are running away from, learn to face those challenges responsibly and equanimously. And then one becomes more free to listen to the tug of one's heart. When faced with making a decision, be it a fork in the road or what to eat for dinner, let the intuition decide. I've spontaneously met beautiful people who lifted my day just because I placed myself in situations where there was an active random element involved, something beyond my intellect. Walking down this street instead of that one, pulled by the tug of my heart. What's more, the more energy work I do, the more powerful this becomes, to the point of highly improbable synchronicities unfolding. It's easy to tell when I'm on the path or not, and the deeper we go, the more rich it becomes. This way of living moves away from the need to make intentional decisions and choices, and moves toward the way of flowing with one's own natural river without making intentional choices and actions. Just like good and bad, the principle is relative to one's situation. When we don't attach to it having fixed positions, we can use it as a guide-line that can take us safely back to the point where everything is natural. The more one does this, the more one appears virtuous in the western definition as well, for one is working toward achieving harmony with all. The words are complicated, but the concept is very simple. Better to live it than to think about it, really.

For the first part of my life I was denied the freedom necessary to create much of an ego/personality. The second part of my life I had the freedom to explore my desires and began to develop ego patterns, but still wasn't very in touch with any sort of self identity. Ironically it is when I discovered taiji and inner cultivation work that I was able to break through into fully embodying myself. At first I was very dissolved and ego-less. And then I let some time pass, and allowed the ego to fill in the newly discovered parts of myself. It let it have its way and do what it wanted, and discovered that it became more difficult to dissolve, the more I would let it get entrenched. It doesn't like letting me do cultivation work, because it is afraid of losing itself, because losing itself means letting go of the predictable attachments to navigating life, and it is afraid of the unknown. Yet in my experience, the more I dissolve the ego, the better I feel, and the better poised I am to navigate the world, even though the ego wants to think otherwise. Quite the paradox. In any case, I've come to learn that those fears are just about identity loss.... and yet the more "I" surrender my identity, the more I allow myself to bloom, to be at the right place at the right time, to say the right thing to the right person, to simply be where being matters most for me and my environment. I say I and me a lot, but who am I, really, but that identity? The more "I" becomes nothing, the better "I" feel. The more that identity embodied in this particular pattern within the celestial mechanism is able to dissolve itself, the more at home "I" feel.

I'd recommend finding a tai ji quan class in your area. Doing physical activity is a natural way of sublimating the pressures of sexual energy. The more the mind and body integrate as one the better. And doing qigong helps one to cultivate the energy more intentionally, and yes, people can awaken in this way. Cultivate your mind with the dao de jing, zhuangzi, and the yijing. Keep things simple. Spend time in nature. Empty the mind, fill the belly. ^^ This doesn't mean fill the belly with food, it means that when the mind is not focused on itself, but instead focused on the belly, the belly becomes full. Start with placing your hands over your belly button and breathing in from there for 4 counts, then exhaling for four counts. Practice this for 5-10 minutes every day, preferably in a natural upright sitting or standing position. Be natural, learn to listen inwardly rather than seeking externally. When we look and listen with our eyes and ears, often we send our qi out of ourselves.... even though the light and sounds comes to us. No need to go questing for things, just let them come to you, and be there to receive them. Use your intention to cultivate inner wholeness, whatever that means to you. Be sincere about it, and learn to recognize the cyclical nature of all things. A beginning, a culmination, a return. Learn to recognize the parts of the cycle that you have trouble with. Most people have trouble accepting the full return after it has become shaped into that which they want and that which they do not want. Learn to recognize that the surface of things hides the truth, just as you can only know yourself from the inside out, and can only know everything else from the outside in. Knowing this, cultivate humility, daring not to put yourself before anyone else or judge something right for someone else even though it feels right to you. Learn that what you project out into the world returns, and what you reject returns as well. Learn to use acceptance of lessons as a path to greater refinement and awareness of your past self. Learn to recognize the truth within the paradox, learn to merge with the heart within the subtle and the obscure. Learn to adapt to change, ever equanimous, ever taking what is right because it is right for your path within an unfolding circumstance, not because you have an attachment to it always being right. Learn that all these things can be applied at myriad layers, and accept that there will be ups and downs. Sometimes you may feel that you are straying far from the path you've been on, but as long as you maintain your sincere intentions, you will discover that you are doing exactly what you need to do in this moment, and this will serve to take you where you need to be. Trust yourself, and trust others without judging them, and you will find your way home. Accept that these things take decades of persistant practice to produce results. No need to be in a hurry. Begin with sincere intention. And most importantly, relax.