Daeluin

Study of the principles that have come to be associated with Dao-ism yields similar understandings of karma and reincarnation, without the noise and complication that can result in contrivance and confusion. The "Dao" itself is the origin of all, and the idea of returning to the dao is simply dissolving polarity (including the polarity of life and death) and reuniting with unity until one returns to this original root. And of course let us not forget that this original root mysteriously exists hidden everywhere around us. Much of daoist system of values revolves around a very small number of principles which emerge from the daoist understanding of cosmology. From the dao comes something, polarity, change, time, energy, spirit, matter, unfolding following the core principles of the circle, and the circle contains the ebb and flow of the five elemental forces and the inherent expansion and contraction of all things. Almost immediately there are so many interactions we simply refer to them as the 10,000 things. Or, more simply put, from the wuji comes the taiji. One of the core principles is that the true, pure, original nature of something is oft found hidden within the false, contrived conditioned, and weathered. This principle is born in how the wuji transforms into the taiji, in particular the two dots within the taiji. And from this we can see that when beliefs have too narrow of a focus, perhaps because the narrow focus is designed to teach something very specific, it also neglects part of the whole. For example the concept of confucian filial piety can be summed up as the importance of nurturing the web of life. But the classic on filial piety is biased to the human web of life, likely because when it was written that was what was deemed most important. But today we understand just how delicate the entire web of life is, and should extend these principles to nurturing the whole rather than one part of the whole. Without this we are just feeding the ego of humanity and contributing to the destruction of that which nourishes us. But those who follow the dao attempt to use the principles of nature as a model, and as they do not cling as much to these sorts of contrivances, are less likely to be misled by them. And so with the concepts of karma and reincarnation, it just makes logical sense. When something changes, there is a rippling forth as one change begets many changes. These ripples eventually return to their origin, following the circular nature of the dao. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When things change, they are reshaped, and each of us exist both in our "selves," and in the shapes of the changes we have influenced. A horse is only a horse because of everything that is not a horse. I am only me because of what is not me. And yet I constantly interact and send what is me into everything that is not me, tying my life to it. In particular, tying my life to these plants and trees, these people, this earth, these shapings of my personality as reflected in the changes I imprint upon the world. And then when all the inner parts of me can no longer hold me together, I die and these different parts dissipate, separating from each other, drawn to where their unique gravity tugs strongest, even as they retain the patterns I have imprinted upon them. If I were to strengthen my whole and dissolve the patterns I have projected into the world (simply by letting them return to me and dissolving them without sending them back out, simply following where drawn without doing), perhaps I would no longer be distinguished as something separate from the whole. These patterns we shape ourselves into in this dance of act and react, this is karma. We don't need any concepts of "heaven" and "hell" to work with, we can simply see that this shaping of pattern will be where we are drawn to, like gravity. And that this unique pattern we have created will determine how and where and when our different parts will be able to reassemble into something able to achieve deeper connection to the whole again. Some might call this reincarnation, or in a more open ended sense, transmigration. The possibilities are endless, and what actually happens depends on how things are shaped and how that shape is able to fit into other shapes. So "Daoists" value simplicity, and when relying on constructs to understand the world, attempt to hold to a very simple (yet profound) subset of constructs that can be used to explain the complexity in everything. In this way it is possible to integrate within the "false" while holding to the "true."

Weird.... I just answered a post I made almost exactly half a year ago. Funny how that works. There are secrets hidden in this.

Stumbled over this in Eva Wong's Holding Yin, Embracing Yang, Treatise on the Mysterious Orifice (xuanweilun):

No, but there may be one. Personally, my approach to learning about chinese medicine comes from first hand internal experience. Rather than learning factual knowledge and logic based applications of this knowledge, I study principles and then forget them and practice inner cultivation. Then I use my experiences to deepen my understanding of principle, which then informs a living model of chinese medicinal theory - one that approaches from the whole more than from the parts. This approach likely takes much longer than simply studying knowledge of chinese medicine alone, but perhaps goes hand in hand with the I Ching, which is all about describing a base set of principles that can be found alive in every aspect of existence. The I Ching principles can be applied to many manifestations of chinese medicinal theory, but these aren't locked in place. Often with the I Ching there are many applicable hexagrams, but only one that best describes the heart of the situation from the perspective one is desiring to understand and treat from. Study of the I Ching is a great introduction to learning to read between the lines, to learn to look at the essence underlying the discernible parts. This essence is at the core of how the body works. Simply studying the essence of the 8 trigrams and the 5 elemental forces is a great way to gain a deeper understanding into some of the roots of chinese medicinal theory.

I don't have experience with it. The reviews on amazon are interesting. From those I get a sense the book is not quite for beginners, but also not quite for seasoned acupuncturists. The book was published in 1992, and I'd imagine the western understanding of chinese medicine has matured quite a bit since then. That said, this is likely a great book to study principle through, come to understand the reasons for these particular hexagram interpretations, and use those reasonings to deepen one's approach to ones current understanding of chinese medicine and I ching. But it might not be the best introduction material for either the I ching or chinese medicine. Before one has built a foundation in a particular area one should be careful with what one embraces, until one has enough experience to reason things out from one's own perspective.

This is a great book. Very accessible, simple to follow, and humble. If I recall correctly, one of the first exercises involves placing the palms over the belly just under the belly button and expanding and contracting with the breath, feeling the palms rise and fall from this area. At first it is just a few counts, but the idea is to lengthen the counts. This is a fantastic intro to lower dan tien work.

OK, so what I'm getting is that kan and li are related to the creation and refinement of the qi and jing, and are related to the taiji. Yuan Xing and Yuan Shen are the same thing, and are related to wuji. The shen is everywhere, and if there is desire it will not be deeply integrated internally, and the jing and qi will dissipate. When there is no desire and the shen is focused internally, yuan xing is recovered, qi and jing are brought forth and refined, and in the complicated process of the interaction of post and pre-celestial kan and li, eventually the merging of shen with qi and jing helps the taiji unfold into the wuji. The intro to Eva Wong's Dragon Tiger Classic has some diagrams, but I find that without understanding the text, these diagrams are just as complicated. The exact interaction of the components of kan and li is explained in very circular terms, and I'm sorry but I am still not able to fully connect every part of the texts, and I want to avoid the trap of thinking I know when I do not. Remember, these transformations share the same root as chinese medicine. Studying acupuncture is very complicated, and is largely related to working with the manifest functioning of the body. Neidan works to cultivate the formless, bring the formless through the form, and returns the form to the formless. Thus it works to reverse the steps that created the manifest form of the body. How could this be called simple? When the whole is divided, parts need names. In returning to the root, one only needs to sincerely guard unity, and this is simple. If one wishes to study the parts, this is complicated. If one has worked in the past to become ready for these transformations, it will be easy to find a teacher, methods, and clarity, simply by increasing and maintaining one's sincere focus on studying and cultivating tao. If one's destiny is not as close to being ready for this transformation, the sincerity will be more difficult to maintain, clarity more difficult to come by, true teachers more difficult to find, and the sacrifices necessary for one to attain success will be more severe. Thus if one tries to accomplish the goals of neidan but is unable to make the necessary sacrifices and maintain the necessary sincerity, one's progress without proper clarity will very likely result in one not achieving the tao, and will artificially shape one's karma so that next time around it will be more difficult to orient oneself in the right direction. If this were to be the case, it would be better for one to simply cultivate a pure heart and follow where that heart leads - next time one will be much closer to attaining the tao. Hence the reason the texts are written in coded terms, and the reason true teachers will not openly reveal the secrets to those who haven't cultivated their destiny to an appropriate place. These days the secrets are easy to come by, but even more easily misunderstood. These days people are full of ego and selfish, bemoaning the secretive nature of teachers and methods, even though these teachers simply wish to prevent harm coming to those who are not able to hear.

I don't see "yuan jing" mentioned anywhere else. Something like that. "Essential Nature" is xing. I wrote a detailed reply to both of these questions, but it got too complicated for my liking. Ultimately Liu Yiming sums it up: Eva Wong's translation of Zhung Lu Chuan Dao Ji in The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality provides lots of details in regards to fire, water, lead mercury, the internal and external medicines, and the reverted (lesser) and greater exlirs. Eva Wong's translation of the Dragon Tiger Classic provides a more specific and detailed look at these exact interactions. Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy (tl Fabrizio Pregadio) provides a picture that describes the formation and creation of the Internal and External Medicines, and the Reverted and Great Elixir, in greatly simplified concepts. And Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao (tl: Fabrizio Pregadio) provides detailed theory and discussion of principles. All four of these books support each other nicely from different perspectives. They offer a very detailed description of what happens and where it happens. However it is left for the reader to puzzle out, and can leave one very confused, even though the actual procedure is simple. If one is deeply sincere, one might be able to discover the answers on one's own. I've been studying these books for a few years now, and am coming to some clarity on their meanings. I also have the good fortune of studying with a teacher who has lead me to feel many of these transformations internally. Without these experiences I would have a much more difficult time finding clarity in these texts. That said, if I am able to get enough clarity to describe it in simple terms, I'll do so. Liu Yiming's talk on the different placements of the furnace and cauldron/tripod answer MooNiNite's question, and so the location is different depending on the stage. And Innersoundqigong's answer is actually somewhat important, and hidden in the operation of the dragon and tiger.

Have you read the commentaries by Chang San Feng and Liu I-ming? Both are translated by Thomas Cleary in Vitality, Energy, Spirit. I imagine the second line is referring to: Third, post-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of the primordial spirit [yuan shen] and the primordial vapor [yuan qi], building the foundation of the pill, and realizing the lesser medicine. In contrast, pre-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of true yin and true yang, strengthening the foundation of the pill, and realizing the greater medicine. I don't know if you've seen this post on kan and li. Generally kan and li want to go in different directions, but when the fire is brought into the lower dan tien to heat the water, qi is created. Following this principle kan and li may rejoin and revert back to qian and kun. Then Qian and Kun join to one another, Yin and Yang become the One Breath, and the Great Ultimate becomes whole and complete. And the pot/cauldron likely refers to Steadying the Furnace and Setting up the Cauldron, where cauldron represents depth of sincerity. Liu Yiming's commentary notes that these are internal components already present and need not be sought externally. Also - Foundations if Internal Alchemy by Wang Mu, translated by Fabrizio Pregadio has one of the simplest explanations of these transformations.

Yes, refining, and then coagulating, fusing different components together, more refining, more fusing. What character are you using for "fusion"? Does it have other translations? Eva has translated a lot of great neidan classics.

When conscious and subconscious are one, is one sleeping, awake, both, or none?

The most important teacher is the dao. Learn to listen to the dao, and you will be guided. These guides will come in all shapes and patterns, living and dead. It is not about finding a good teacher, but about becoming a good student.

It'd be great to discuss more with you in the I Ching subforum!

Thanks for the clarification! And agreed, great conversation.

Perhaps chapter 9 of Holding Yin, Embracing Yang (tl: Eva Wong) describes this pre-celestial [xian tian] coagulation in a concise way:

Thanks for the clarification - this thread is asking about the white snow, but many of the answers seem more related to the experience of seeing light/stars falling, etc. Easy for those unfamiliar to get confused, but otherwise this thread offers some great clarity on both topics! Sorta like asking the I-Ching a yes or no question.... you get an answer that speaks to something in between.

It's not a metaphor. It happens once all the dantiens (Lower, Middle, & Upper) come online. It's along the lines of what happens with the appearance of "The Mysterious Gate". I saw the "Mysterious Gate" when my lower dantien was fully online, and middle, and upper dantiens were coming online. You see points of light that look like stars, and points of light first. Then the mysterious gate shows up, first in your peripheral vision, then in front of you. First time It happened, it was like "WTF was THAT!?" LOL! Then I remembered what was said In Taoist Yoga, read the passage on it again, and was like "Huh..Mysterious Gate". LOL! Hi Infolad1 - would you be open to elaborating more on this possible connection between either the white snow or the light/pearl and the mysterious gate? This is the first I've heard of them being the same thing. Thanks!

First - I agree, if we do the work the stages unfold naturally, unless we let ourselves get stuck by an obstacle / timing. However, I'm curious - are we saying this nimitta light / pearl is the same as the white snow? I've seen this light, and was a very different experience than what I described earlier. Very much along the lines of what recent posts describe, and what is described here: So this light appears to be directly related to Xing-gong, while the zhong lu chuan dao ji speaks of the White Snow in terms of the Jade elixir, which is related to the Ming, not the Xing, which is related to the Golden Elixir. Chapter 8 of Secret of the Golden Florescence begins with a poem: And this translation's notes seem to indicate this white snow is related to the white light, but something seems off to me. Later it says: The white snow flying, is the true yin within Li ☲ about to return to Kun (Earth) ☷. This would support the idea of the white snow being related to Ming - here being the True Yin trapped within Li, coming to return to the lower dan t'ien to form K'un. So the sense I make of this, is that the light seems related to the creation of the immortal fetus, while the white snow seems related to the incubation of the immortal fetus: I'd guess that when I felt what I described earlier, it was the white snow, but I had not gathered the medicines and created the immortal fetus yet.

It's all about the heart of things. And the heart of things existed before 3 dimensional space - therefore we cannot find the heart of things using the coordinates of 3 dimensional space. The heart of things has no location within this space, and exists in every location in this space, simultaneously. This appears to be on the same general wavelength of modern cosmological theories. When the whole is divided, parts need names. And when we are only looking at this part or that part, we turn our back on other parts. To find the center, we must accept all parts. And when we look for the center out in the world, we are always looking at things from the outside in, and they all seem so different. When we look inside ourselves, we can also look at the different parts. Yet if we cultivate our own inner whole, and allow ourselves to sink into the heart of hearts, feel our inside out perspective and return to the origin of it, allow all our different parts to join with this heart of hearts, we begin to tap into that original root, that place that exists before three dimensional space, that place that defies location. As we find our center, we too need to begin to realize this center as the source of all things - the source we find at our heart is non other than the source at the heart of everything. And rather than looking at things from the outside in, we begin to feel a resonance between our heart and the heart of others. This can lead to increased sensitivity and desire to protect oneself when around others, as one feels another tug this way or pull that way - but if one simply detaches from needing to control everything going on in one's field, one is able to expand one's field out across the universe, accepting of all as one. The more we are able to accept and open this way, the more we will be able to maintain our connection to the center, even while tossing in the waves of creation. Stepping into freefall this way may require some gradual maneuvering into a position where one naturally flows towards what resonates, without being in danger of running into obstacles that cannot be overcome. It is all a matter of timing and positioning of what remains of "you" within the whole. Thus we first look within to find the "kingdom," but in the end we realize it is within and without, and the two are one. It is easy to think the world is flat and that people from different continents must be from other worlds - but as awareness grows, we come to realize all these different worlds share the same center within the same planet. It is easy to build walls and wage wars to protect us from them - but as we evolve we come to understand it is in our best interest to nurture what is best for all of us together.

Seems like it might be easy to get caught up by a cult of followers... at first you allow them to hang around, but before you know it they're entrenched and hold you as a god, no longer willing to think for themselves, simply desiring to worship you, and you become trapped, at the center of power, yet powerless. If Osho had known, would he have.... If Jesus had known, would he have.... Who knows? What point in judging? But here and now we can be thankful for the lessons that can be learned from their experiences. Zhuangzi speaks much on avoiding traps caused by letting the external world attach value to you. And, too, how one might bring great change without being known.

It is fine to discern polarity, but picking one side of a polarity means refusing to accept the other side as being a part of the whole. Use it as a lesson for what not to do or allow, but don't presume to deny that Osho is you and you are Osho.

Perhaps I had an experience of this. Part of a repetitive expanding and contracting exercise. After several months of this every morning, I started feeling very selfless, very humble, very integrated, the energy/ming work becoming very refined. At the height of the expansion, arms out straight to the sides, elbows relaxed, energy out to the finger tips and toe tips, the contraction began. But in this state of integration and egolessness, I found that I would simply float down, no longer controlling my descent into horse stance, the energy buoying me up so that I could rest upon it like an eagle soaring on the wind. A gentleness filled my middle dan tien as I floated down - I felt like falling snow, but also felt as though snow was falling from my middle dan tien to my lower dan tien, and I was one with it. This lasted a few weeks and not sure what happened after - I likely didn't maintain a regular practice and as the seasons changed my practice perhaps moved on to a different emphasis. In Eva Wong's translation of zhong lu chuan dao ji: This describes a process that can unfold under the right circumstances of cultivation work, at higher levels, and should not be forced. The terms used in Neidan often describe the same ingredients using different names at different stages of refinement. The zhong lu chuan dao ji is very circular, a seeming riddle. It is very easy to miss something and jump to conclusions. But things are described from enough perspectives to uncover the truth, if one is serious in studying. But even with clarity in understanding, nothing can be forced or made to happen. Hope this helps.

Infolad1, thanks for some of the info you've shared here, and welcome! It is great to hear from another well-studied bum. Too, I wonder if there is a reason for the saying: those who know don't speak. It is good to be mindful of frugality and humility, for they are integral to wuwei. Excesses and expectations can lead to subtle rifts, especially on these boards where attached but differing understandings of right and wrong abound, leading to inevitable debating over what is "right." Knowledge is endless, perspectives are endless, and there is no one "right" for everyone, a message oft lost in these discussions. Shen is everywhere.

One of the ten monsters, from a discussion of the nine obstacles and ten monsters (tl Eva Wong): Perhaps this... Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao (tl. Fabrizio Pregadio), from the chapter on doing and non-doing: This quote raises a fair amount to think upon, and even though it has a sense of yet another "spiritual recipe," I feel it is speaking to what we are discussing here. Just like the previous quotes spoke of awakening and understanding before acting intuitively, here there is emphasis on a return to health in such a way as to rediscover the Original Root, the true heart, after which one rests upon non-doing in order to protect one's true heart from becoming unraveled again, and as one incubates one's heart a transformation occurs that is different from other paths. This discussion of the True Seed, the other house and my house is simply the natural operation of kan and li as discussed here: one replenishes the fullness of that which has become trapped and depleted in the kan/ming dynamic, so that it may integrate with the li/xing/spiritual dynamic, merging what had become two back into one and this one being a truer connection to the Original Root. And along the way one is careful to keep a balance so that one does not either drown or burn the medicines created from the deepening of connection to the Original Root. This is a difference that allows one to precede Heaven (for after all Heaven and Earth are in some form of polarity, and integrating and balancing them allows the true heart to emerge, this Original Root, which is the origin of Heaven and Earth), and thus how could heavenly beings we ask for guidance know about it or fathom it? With great sincerity placed and maintained upon one's health and heart, one becomes whole and simply preserves this wholeness by flowing intuitively based upon what is necessary for maintaining this sincerity, and all is done.

Yeah, many man seem quite happy to plant their seed in another... so eager to part with their vital essence. So perhaps it makes sense that it'd be easy to fall into a similar dynamic with spiritual endeavors. Meanwhile many of the women I know are much more willing to accept responsibility for owning and accepting where and who they are. They say women mature faster than men as well, perhaps related to this. I think somewhere at the end of the zhong lu chuan dao ji is mentioned a list of traps to avoid falling into, getting distracted by. Among things like sexual temptation, riches, etc, is getting enticed by heavenly voices, angels and spiritual glory... perhaps I'll add that excerpt later.