Daeluin

Sometimes just one in a lifetime. The grandmasters who taught Wang Liping didn't open a school, they traveled the country until they found the one who had the proper potential to receive what they had to offer.

I'm a lefty, but more ambi in that I don't mind training myself to do things with the other hand if there's incentive, like using my mouse right-handed... scissors I'll use both, but often need to switch to right if the material-resistance-to-sharpness ratio requires the precise leverage built for right handed mechanics. I think this follows on our discussion of mastery - gotta truly master both sides for it to be mastery. Qiao vessels seem related to this. I remain intent on some day learning to do my taiji etc forms both sides equally well. It is amazing to me how different the same movements can be when made on left and right sides. I find the differences help to inform the other side as well. With programming, I think that often a particular path is chosen, and then it gets somewhat fixed in place as the functionality locks certain things in place that can't be changed without breaking everything. Often as the program matures and the desired needs become more clear, the whole thing needs to be re-written from the ground up to allow the most efficient trajectory... but even then it won't allow things outside of that trajectory. This is why people try to design around modularity, to allow flexibility in unanticipated directions, but how well this works still depends on what that direction needs to be. In terms of simply allowing a larger number of moderators per forum, I wonder what the snag actually is... seems like it could just be a hard-coded setting somewhere, but is likely something deeper. Unfortunately it can be hard to know the full effect hacking even something simple like this might have on the entire software. Maybe when more people reach true mastery our software will be less buggy.

Water Margin might be considered to touch upon this in some ways. I haven't had time to read it yet, but the outline seems to revolve around how these once banished demons return to the world and are considered outlaws to begin with, but over time are pardoned and employed by the empire for good. In that sense perhaps this is a lesson for us in modern times in equality. We have our many demons and like to separate ourselves from them the way we do our landfills and wars and other enforced inequalities that end up manifesting as cancers inside of ourselves. Perhaps this is a lesson in allowing the demons to return to the fold rather than influencing from the stars, so that we can weather through the period of re-integration and have our power whole again when we need it most.

No different than cultivation of self. Energy gets blocked where there are attachments. I hear that in push hands one needs to be able to channel the other's energy to the ground without obstruction. If it encounters obstruction that is leverage against you. In open discussions (discussions that are not invite only), the same principle applies, and one's ability to guide a topic hinges on their words not triggering reactions in others that cause an unintended splitting of energy. If anyone is invited, the course will flow as clearly as all participants allow it to. If just one channel or participant triggers a blockage, the energy will become turbulent in this area and until addressed and dissolved this blockage will influence the environment. In the body there is no banning.... that would be like cutting out an organ or something; ultimately serving a counter purpose. Given the nature of modern human blockages, why ever would we openly invite all to participate in what very few have the capacity for, without providing means for guidance?

Right. But we're each already sovereigns of our own countries, and when we have some other monarch take away our ax to grind, we tend to treat it as a direct oppositional encounter. Perhaps we can post in another thread by that sovereign, but unless we've dealt with any feeling of opposition to this person, our posts (regardless of their words) might continue to transmit an oppositional momentum. The ax I brought was an interest to accomplish your goal without creating an oppositional dynamic. Someone here had a quote in their footer, people will forget what you said, but won't forget how you made them feel. I find this incredibly poignant, more so because people always tend to look at the words to explain the feelings, making it difficult to ever actually resolve the feelings. So my solution was to allow a scenario where seemingly natural consequences would give a person a feeling of how well their posts are contributing to the heart of the topic. If I make three posts in a topic, and continuously get anonymous reflection that I am not nurturing the topic, then if I end up getting banned, I don't have anyone to point a finger at in answer to my hurt ego except myself. I think this is an important consideration, but perhaps not one easy to pull off. In any case, I sense the ax I brought might not be welcome, so I intend to withdraw, unless directed otherwise.

To return to dao we must conform to dao. When creation unfolds at first it doesn't conform, but quickly finds it needs to, and balance is found between new expression and maintaining connection to the supporting foundation. When creation avoids conformity we get demons. What Taomeow describes is what creates War between countries.

That's why I'm trying to tie this rule to principle, and to explore how this principle might be maintained somewhat organically. Forums are like target practice. The OP sets up a target so people can aim at it. Some people do this and have fun. Others want to have fun without having to aim at the target, and they just do as they please. The option I was exploring would allow posters to post so long as they are aiming at the target and nurturing harmony, regardless of what else their post does. If they aim deliberately outside of the target, they are taking themselves out of the thread all on their own - we just need a way to identify this that allows the principle of anarchy to remain in operation. If people want to leave the conversation and start another one that is up to them, but it seems there is interest here for those who wish to remain on topic to have that option without those who don't disabling its momentum. The more specific system I mentioned might start with the OP and or mods, of this specialized forum, to vote on how well a post nurtures balance within the realm of the topic. In most cases it would take multiple postings to get one to the edge of this realm where they would be in danger of being banned from further posting in this specific thread, and they would be able to see where their momentum leads after each post. Perhaps this could be made more anarchy-like by allowing all people to vote, but in order to get a sense of how well this works I'd recommend a more controlled environment to start with. The idea would be to tweak this method to arrive in the range of the desired amount of protection for the natural flow of the OP, allowing unexpected creative unfoldings but preventing natural disasters. We all know how humanity tends to laugh in the face of natural balances. Just look at what lottery winners do with their money. A system like this would merely aim at pointing people at the point of balance, making it necessary for them to change and adapt rather than simply controlling from a fixed perspective.

I suppose another catch of properly applying the principle of generation within conquest is the idea of over-generation. We had a previous member who would post nothing but creative posts, but they were so enormous that they dominated those threads without allowing a healthy cycling of energies. So it is important to generate within the constraints of the particular topic, but to correctly apply this principle is to drive momentum towards pre-celestial refinement. As such the generation within conquest needs to avoid creating in directions that travel too far away from the topic (the root), as this prevents the heart of the OP from being nurtured. Perhaps the OP and forum mods could vote on whether or not certain posts are helping to create the desired balance or not, and this is what would determine if a person could continue posting in a thread. If their posts take the person to the edge of what we might call the circle of balance, they have one remaining posting opportunity to bring them back into balance, but once they are deemed out of balance, they are prohibited from posting.

This is great. And the principle here is resonant with Liu Yiming's principle of creation within control leading from post-celestial to pre-celestial refinement. I used that principle to show how the post-celestial ming of destiny can be intentionally refined into the pre-celestial energy body free of destiny in the Working With Destiny thread. So when someone says something we disagree with - that disagreement is a reaction, and will typically cause a closing off and separation. If then someone says something, usually it is attached to maintaining that polarity and will manifest in a controlling 5 phase dynamic. The trick is to avoid closing off, to hone in on where and how we feel reactive and keep that spot open, dissolve it and use it to create new energy there to prevent that closure from occurring. This is resting upon what controls us and to transfrom that sense of control into a sense of one-ness through the process of creative energy. This is a dynamic of transformation, change, evolution, and it is important to realize that the heart of this process is one of tearing down the walls of one's personal fortress. This is hard to control. It is very likely a poster may use this dynamic correctly and attempt to be part of the family, only to have the energy they bring reacted to by the OP's own inability to be open to certain energies, even though those energies may not be attempting to control, but only to nurture and transform themselves so that they fit in. I have an easier time envisioning a forum dedicated to careful moderation with an emphasis upon this dynamic.... than a place where the OP can control things however they like. The former enforces unbiased growth, the later enforces creation of cliques.

The first telling of the Grail did not include Lancelot or Galahad, but it is hard to know when the biases of time will influence lesser or greater poignancy...

Indeed. I wonder if Water Margin is too like this. So much to read.

Well probably not what your looking for, but in the same vein... in Quest del Saint Graal, which is described by the English translator P. M. Matarasso as a spiritual fable and is full of biblical references, there is a certain ship and sword that are described in very specific terms as spiritual metaphors... To me this is a clear parallel to the mysterious pass. If one is unable to be fully centered within both their self and within the universe, the center cannot be kept too and the vessel will vanish. Further, the golden elixir is inherently connected with the mysterious pass - in that one's energy must be refined to the point of creating the golden elixir in order to access the mysterious pass. This refining requires merging the dragon and the tiger, metal and wood, water and fire, within the context of earth, the yellow woman, and all of these things point to very specific levels of mastery in terms of skillful balancing. So they board the vessel and in the cabin find a very particular bed with a crown at the head and a sword at the foot. The blade had an inscription as well: The belt was surprisingly flimsy, and the scabbard read: The maiden present met all these requirements and had previously prepared a belt of her own hair, and after replacing the belt proclaimed the names as the sword of the strange belt and the scabbard memory of blood. Again these appear as easy references for the mysterious pass and golden elixir. Not only is the hair and other material of the belt golden, standing for the center and balance, the emphasis of the sword's name is upon the belt that holds the sword to the body of the person, and the requirement of the belt was one of utmost purity. The symbolisms used in daoism are many, and oft confusing. But really these symbols are fairly simple at heart once one realizes many of them mean the same thing under different conditions of transformation and expression in their every changing dance of interaction with each other. Here's a quote from section three of The Inner Teachings of Taoism: And from the Wuzhen Pian we have a verse On the Sword of Wisdom: Here we again have emphasis on the female, receptive, flexible component being such an important requirement that in both our Grail and Neidan texts we have the direct portrayal of a female stepping in to do what a man cannot. Both our Neidan sources here mention the power to slay demons.... in a flash it cuts through demons for ten thousand miles, and sometimes the true human opens its mouth and energy fills the universe, putting all demons to flight. Demon's, in my understanding are merely energy vortexs that are in some form of egoic pattern that is reluctant to trust and flow with the tao. Yet nothing can resist the flow of the tao for long, all things will live and die according to principles in operation within them. Anything at all may be considered demonic in this sense; all is relative. And this sword / our true human has the power to dissolve all disconnection from creation. Similar to notions of superior virtue and inferior virtue, perhaps the sword of our Quest which is found within something of utmost faith is wise to be cautiously used in terms of how the light of God/Dao might have a rather profound effect upon creation upon earth. Should it be misused it would instantly break in two - which adds up if one thinks of the mysterious pass as a place existing before polarity - should one misuse the power of the source one will find that polarity again rules and the source has been cut off. In the footnotes our translator says: I don't care to read into any of it too heavily, but I've found the parallels obvious enough for my own tastes. This is how the dao works after all, with synchronicity. Nothing is coincidence.

Right back at you. The information you share is always very alive, so it is a pleasure to receive. This bit here is almost as profound a principle as polarity, and is the mechanism of creation itself. The 3 contain the 2, and from this we get the 4, the 5, the 6, all at once, and all uniquely shaped. Thanks for your comments. I definitely need to study more, hopefully as informed by a growing awareness of my vessels and meridians.

Okay, so Liu Yiming is yelling at me now. His final chapter in Cultivating the Tao tl; Pregadio exhausts this topic: Exerting One's Mind to Inquire into the Principles: He touches upon the essence I court: However, the ultimate point of this Way consists only in the One Breath; and the One Breath does not lie outside of Empty Non-Being. And perhaps should one be able to harness this essence, one might ride it through all manner of challenges without mistake simply lead by the wings of destiny. But even with the wings of destiny it sounds like one had best be thorough. Some interesting things were touched upon here... such as Tortoise and milfoil cannot fathom it, spirits and deities cannot know about it.

Hmmm, I wonder about this. Every form within the 10,000 things must certainly be mastered. But if one simply masters the whole, one too masters all parts of the whole. Well, you're right! I hadn't been aware of the medicinal theory - that bit of studying has remained on the to-do list for now, though I've started reading Li Shi-Zhen's An Exposition on the Eight Extraordinary Vessels, translated and expounded upon by Charles Chace and Miki Shima. I'm quite enjoying it so far as this appears directed at both medicinal and cultivation audiences. Yes, that's exactly what I did, associating Wind with the symbol found in the Eight Trigrams. Really so far I've noticed a trend in daoist classics that there is no such thing as a coincidence when the same terms are used in different contexts. Really this even applies to yin and yang... must be a daoist idea of a joke. So I pulled open that book on Five Element Chinese Medicine I have but haven't finished reading... Five Elements and Ten Stems Nan Ching Theory, Diagnostic and Practice by Kiki Matsumoto and Stephen Birch. The index had a couple items on Wind, as follows: So the Su Wen says the eight winds can approach and touch the five Yin organs, and then further on we have a table: So I only referenced one text, but it immediately pointed to wind-bagua and wind-wood associations. But too, all five of these are winds, so we have a Wood Wind and a Metal Wind. Published in 1983, so perhaps this perspective has been evolved, or perhaps there are different schools of thought. It is certainly a profound area to study and I'd love hearing more about it. This is beautiful and poignant. Thank you. I hear you. If we set our intention upon the wuji within and simply let everything else be, we can radiate trust and it will rest upon all of the layers of forms within and without - without our needing to comprehend them with any sort of mental knowing. We must master every layer, but can do so by simply becoming every layer within the whole. The trick is not leaving anything behind through preference or judgment, or lack of thoroughness, etc. We can assist this by studying, but any knowledge we attach to must eventually be emptied as well. If one is studying taiji, one should not simply take what feels good to them and cut out what does not - that is a good way to leave blind spots undeveloped. But if one masters taiji, must one also master bagua, feng shui, etc, in order master one's self and become a transcendent? Or must one simply take any form that contains true wholeness and use it to fully master themselves? Quite. Agreed. My musings above expound upon the rich depth of the 5 phases within the seasons to help dissolve the western perspective back within a deeper root. Or at least one that is deeper to me. Ultimately my exploration into how they might be connected is just an amusement - as I said before, the elements cannot be simply overlayed, they are different paradigms that study the same cycle.

OK, getting right into this, we have: The Chinese Fire Trinity, where Fire is created in the first half of Tiger, fully expressed in Horse, and where Fire is put into storage during the first half of Dog. This aligns with the Western Air Trine. Further this adds up - Fire is the most surface level, most expressive and dynamic of the Chinese Five Phases, and matches very well to the Western interpretation of Air. There are 5 Phases, however in the Seasonal observation Earth is not expressed as a trinity, leaving us with 4 Chinese Trinities and 4 Western Trines. This also adds up. So next we'd have the Metal Trinity - Metal is created in the first half of the Snake month, is expressed fully in Rooster, and is stored away in the first half of Ox. This would align with Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn - the Western Earth Trine. Then we'd have the Water Trinity - Water is created in the first half of Monkey, is full in Rat, and is stored away in the first half of Dragon. This aligns with Leo, Sagittarius, Aries, the Western Fire Trine. Interesting. And finally the Chinese Wood Trinity - Wood is created in the first half of Boar, is full in Rabbit, and is stored away in Sheep. This aligns with the timing of Scorpio, Pisces, Cancer. On the surface this feels like a big stretch, but if we get deeper.... for example Wood, Movement, is Stored away in the final stages of Cancer, and Cancer is associated with emotional exploration within the self, that is not expressed outwardly but usually an internal only process. So if we look at it on the surface it might not add up - but if we look at what is occurring on a deeper level, connections begin to emerge. At first glance it might be awkward aligning Fire with Water, as Water is associated with Stillness and Fire is associated with Activity. Yet if we study Hexagram 52, Mountain, we come to understand that within Stillness is Movement. As we are dealing with different layers, perhaps that adds up. But I'm out of time to explore at the moment, maybe more later!

I suppose I'd answer that with this: Here you say the form of the element Metal does not matter, and I would apply this to Wind as well. Wind is part of the layer of 8 changing elemental forces, not the five. This is my most favorite part of Taoism - when two schools conflict on one Layer, all we need to do is step back to an earlier Layer. One of the first Layers is simply duality, polarity - Yin and Yang. As creation unfolds new Layers arise, but Yin and Yang remain evident in any of those layers as well. This principle applies to all layers - the seed of the parent is expressed in the child, and within the child can be seen every possible layer. So following this principle, any of the 8 bagua elemental forces will also contain the 5 phases. In terms of Air, it is just a substance which the forces of the Layers act upon. The form does not matter - how it changes matters. A person isn't stupid, but they might express stupidity sometimes and brilliance other times. So Air/Wind is not "Metal," but at times it is guided by conditions to change according to the principles of Metal. And at times Wood. We could descend up a layer to discuss why we feel Wind expresses more like Metal or Wood, but all in all that would be a very Metal discussion, full of discrimination as we articulate where the line in the sand should be. I won't call your School's perspective erroneous, I'll just step to where I can integrate with it harmoniously. I've heard when Metal and Wood harmonize, they become love. I began with an understanding of Western Astrology and its elemental system, and more recently I've been studying the Eastern Astrological systems and while I treat them as separate layers, I've been working to understand how these layers are linked. Both layers observe the seasons and are timed according to the Solstices and Equinoxes. However Western Astrology sees the beginning of the Spring Equinox as a beginning, while Chinese Astrology sees it as the central point of an overall change. Western takes the month of Pisces as an ending, followed by a very profound change at the Equinox into the fiery new beginning of Aries. But this begins to make sense in terms of Chinese understanding as we look at the whole cycle. In Winter, the phase of Stillness, a seed has been formed, and as the Yang energy slowly returns after the Winter Solstice, that seed absorbs the life energy, and in the month of "Ox" it sprouts. However it is still buried in the earth, and it takes this month to balance and orient itself in terms of its environment, discerning up from down and getting to know the overall shape of this heart of its beginning. Then when the "Tiger" month comes it enters a very active growing stage, but it is still buried. Then comes the month of Rabbit, which is centered around the Spring Equinox. The first part of the month is a noticeable change, as now the sprout is beginning to reach looser soils and doesn't need to use as much force, but it is still hidden beneath the surface - until on the equinox it reaches the surface and undergoes a major awakening. This same seasonal principle can be applied to the rising sun - the Spring and Autumn Equinoxes are as the moment of the sunrise and sunset. The season of Metal is the three months centered around the Autumnal Equinox - Monkey, Rooster, Dog. In terms of Western Months this would be the last half of Leo, Virgo, Libra, and the first half of Scorpio. So please humor me as I explore this in terms of elemental expressions.... Leo is fire, and is positioned at the heart of the furnace. But Leo is also very egotistical, and Egoic attachment is a very Metal Phase expression. Coming from spring, our seedling has matured in terms of growth and came to express that culmination of growth in the summer through a flowering. As the summer wanes, that flower turns out to be the beginning of a fruit which begins to mature. This is the beginning of our journey into the Metal Season, although the actual inception and foreshadowing of this Metal Phase began within the month of Snake as part of the blueprint contained within the bud of the flower. As our fruit begins to mature, a separation is beginning. The energy of the parent is increasingly feeding the fruit - a sacrifice in terms of one's own life energy in answer to the needs of furthering the life of the species. Perhaps this is related to how Leo people are very self-centered in their focus - this self-centering is not their true self, but rather centered upon the maturation of the fruit of their Ego, amidst all of those glowing embers of the dying fire of Summer. This maturation of the fruit continues through this second half of the Monkey month and the first half of Virgo. Now the heat is beginning to cool and a need for deeper structuring of the fruit occurs as the seeds form within. There is an interesting dynamic happening here in terms of purity and innocence that aligns with what we know of Virgo. We have to remember that a "Virgo Person" is someone born during this particular phase of seasons, who comes to interact with the outside world from this perspective. In this person's origin we have a transmission from parent to child, even as that child is still a part of the parent. The parent is sharing everything it feels the child needs to know about how to act in the outside world, which is a very pure and intimate exchange, if ultimately biased to a particular limited perspective on behalf of the parent. In terms of how a "Virgo Person" interacts with the outside world, they hold at their heart the love found within this transmission, even as they hold onto that attachment, which can be an Egoic based limitation from adaptation. In terms of the "Monkey Person" we are looking more at the last half of Leo and the first half of Virgo, and so in this container we have a more impulsive combination, but it returns to the same combination of influences in terms of the development and maturation of something - a fruit, or ego - and how that is expressed. As we enter the Rooster Month, which is centered around the Autumnal Equinox, Virgo completes and we enter Libra. This moment of completion is like a separation - the transmission of parent to child is complete and the fruit has matured, and in absolute vulnerability it separates from the parent. This is the Harvest. Now as that fruit separates, it attains a sense of freedom, and perhaps this is our first hint at the Air like nature of Libra. This is also connected to the moment the sun sets behind the horizon. We still have light, and yet there is a feeling of urgency, of vulnerability. Everything is new, alive, from the perspective of the child, but what to do? Where to go? There are so many possibilities. At the heart lies the DNA of the parent, but it will take time for the child to gain enough strength to recognize this, and so the child is more focused on the surrounding environment and responding to the ever changing stimulus. We can't really understand Libra's sense of urgency (blowing in the wind, so to say) without looking at the first half of the next month, Dog. Dragon and Dog are opposites, and are known as the months of Heaven and Hell. During Dragon the Wood energy is being positioned to how it can bloom in the Fire months. This is part of the Earth phase, even as it is part of the Wood phase. But during Dog we have a dying energy, the sun has already set, it is well into dusk. This is when things are not quite what they seem, when danger awaits at the watering hole to capitalize on the naturally dwindling alertness. Dog is half Libra, half Scorpio. So let's return to Libra for a moment. I've gone into the dynamic at the heart - the separation of parent from child, the vulnerability present within as it is aware of the impending dying stage and is in a bit of a panic unless it is able to surrender, trust, accept. On the surface during this month we are faced with lots of decisions. The harvest needs to be brought in, and there are so many different things to harvest. What needs to be done when? All of it revolves around separation - where to cut the fruit from the parent, where to store it, decisions, decisions, and oh so so so much to do before the earth freezes. For the Libran person, they are constantly aware of all these possibilities and do their best to flow with them, trying to stay relatively balanced without getting overwhelmed, which often means not going very deep, not questioning too much, especially not internally, even though it is totally fine to judge everything externally - it is a dynamic of constantly attempting to maintain surface level harmony amidst a rapidly changing environment. This is the heart of the Metal phase - discrimination. should we choose to look at everything around us as a choice that may be made, we are quickly overwhelmed - but should we accept everything simply as it is without needing to judge it, suddenly everything gets much simpler. But it's hard to surrender when you know death is coming. As we enter more deeply into the Dog month and touch upon Scorpio, this resistance to death becomes intensely evident. Night is almost upon us and a critical juncture has been reached. This is the last opportunity during the Metal phase to control / decide how things are going to preserve life and avoid death. Alas, death is how Metal creates "Water." Death is how new life arrives. When one door closes another opens. As the fruit rots, the seed within settles more deeply into the ground where it will find stillness during winter and sprout just before spring. Scorpio is deeply emotional, because it attaches to those emotions and buries them deeply to prevent them from being killed by others. Sharing an emotion is exposing it and allowing it to be changed by another's reflection - sharing is death. But death is life, life and death are change and evolution. So the real lesson to be taken away from the metal phase is how much trouble we allow ourselves to get into by resistance to death, resistance to change, resistance to our own transformation. As we enter Sagittarius, that death has manifested, but not completely - until we pass the Winter solstice we are still very much focused on the previous year and all it had to share with us. And yet layers have been shed, the fruit has rotted and the seed lies beneath a layer of leaves and organic matter. It has nothing to do but reflect upon the past and come to big picture conclusions as to how it all fits together, even though that understanding will ultimately and radically change as it emerges from winter and new growth takes grip. Perhaps it will find deeper rest during the Rat month, but only if it allows itself to do so. In ancient times the Emperer would take measures to connect people to the stillness, so they could feel the hint of returning energy after the Winter Solstice, by closing down the markets and limiting traveling. See the stillness is still, and while the cold encourages it, these days we've learned to protect ourselves from the cold, and have discovered that we can use the stillness as a period of freedom where things don't get in our way as much, and so we have many celebrations and make much activity during the time of stillness, and this disconnects us from the natural cycles of the seasons. Anyway, I have come to understand that the Western Elements and the Chinese Five Phases are not the same - you can't just line them up together. But through observation one can reason out the connection between them. It is pretty clear how Libra can be seen as Air like. The same extends to Gemini in its position between Snake and Horse, where expression is unfolding in myriad forms and to Aquarius in its position between Ox and Tiger, where the sprout is blindly and stubbornly proclaiming its freedom. If anything, this Western "Air Trine" might be overlayed unto the Chinese "Fire Trinity" (Tiger/Horse/Dog). During the first half of Tiger (last half of Aquarius) Fire is created, is full during Horse (last half of Gemini), and is stored away during the first half of Dog (last half of Libra). This probably deserves deeper exploration.

Very daoist - one is the root of the change but others are invisible to it, allowing one to be free of the association. Free from attachment and entrapment by others. Change others so they think they changed themselves. Especially when all someone is stealing is concepts and ideas, easy for them to take the credit for turning those ideas into something profitable. On the flip side, how does one control whether the ideas one leaves floating around are going to be applied by others in connection with dao or separation from dao? Such is the trickiness with words and symbols, they are ever changing from one mind to another....

I do my best to post with the intent for it to remain. Sometimes things change. I recall recently a thread where I added a bit of personal info to support my point, but the thread headed to the pit and my posts clearly didn't change the trajectory of the conversation, so I removed the personal content to protect myself. But if what I shared had been discussed, I would have been happy to let it remain. Personal info can be tricky. I've seen people who might be doing this sorta thing from the onset, as a way of baiting for answers, and when the answers don't come in the form they like, poof. Not foolproof though. Locked threads cannot be edited. And once something is posted to the internet.... well perhaps it can be "hidden," but don't be surprised if it shows up again. Most threads age under a big pile of dust, and many topics are discussed again and again in new threads, though the answers still remain. Just look at the I Ching forum... not many threads there, but how many do we have asking for book recommendations? Some threads are behemoths... when they get resurrected it takes courage to follow the topic. But sometimes I am very pleasantly surprised when a short, on-topic thread is given new life and relevancy. In the end, we can just post the best we can and hope others do too.... and accept that nothing will ever go the way we expect it to.

Wind certainly penetrates and pierces, but cutting? The essence of wind is ever connected and though it may bite at times, I don't think of it as having a separating aspect. The wind that penetrates and pierces tends to stir and mix things together rather than separating them. All of these behaviors of wind are very wood phase like. The more extreme activity of wind as it rushes between extremes of temperature is nothing but control by the Metal phase. And certainly Metal may condense what is expanded, stopping it short of its expansive endeavors, returning it to stillness. But I would say that Wind is Wood, and what you are describing is how Wood is controlled by Metal. The Wind itself is Yin Wood, it is receptive at heart. Funny this coming up as we've just entered the month of Yin Wood. The descriptors definitely throw us off. Especially water, or even fluid. Perhaps something more appropriate: Expansion, Expression, Contraction, Incubation. With "Earth" facilitating the link between them all. Whatever is expanded becomes part of the new layer of creation. Certainly some of this "water" may be left behind as a reserve - people will focus on what is moving and what it happens, untroubled by what is left in stillness. Take a Mountain as the "Water Phase." It is a resource of stone, it is in stillness. Some masons turn the Mountain into a quarry and ship it off as blocks of marble. This is the Wood, expansion, movement phase. Then some artisans turn it into sculptures or palaces. This is the Fire, expression, creation phase. Then a rebellion takes place and the sculptures and palaces are torn down. This is the Metal, contraction, settling, dying phase. Over time the old pieces of marble settle deeper and deeper into the earth, returning to stillness and incubation. This is the Water phase. There is nothing water like or fluid like about this, but it follows the principles of the cycle. The same can be applied to the rise and fall of the Sun and Moon. Dawn and Sunrise are a new awakening, a new beginning, an expansion and building and growing of Yang energy. The Sun reaches its zenith at the peak of Yang and as evening draws more near it begins to settle toward the horizon. The warmth of the day wanes and some things become very still. As midnight passes the cycle begins again. Waking up, getting our bodies moving. Fully awake, going about our day. Overwhelmed, stressed out, tired, eventually we agree to settle down again. Asleep and still we replenish our reserves. So the Lungs help to settle the good air/qi into our body and return it to the source of energy reserves in the kidneys where the expansion cycle begins again. The air/qi is not Metal itself, but is controlled by the Metal phase dynamic of the Lungs. The fluid state of water is expanded into vapor by the dynamic of heat (greater yang) and is condensed into ice by the dynamic of cold (greater yin). Lesser yang and yin are the beginnings of heat and cold. The established cycles of the 5 phases serve to maintain a equilibrium. In the body movement and expression (yang, wood, fire) urge the water to become vapor, qi. The contraction and stillness (yin, metal, water) condense the vapor back into fluid and allow it to return to the origin of the cycle. This is merely a cycling system that revolves around fluid and vapor (and spirit). There are others that revolve around the ebb and flow of solid and fluid, or express dynamics within these states. So "Water" is only an appropriate term when water happens to fill the role of stillness in the cycle. Solid, Liquid and Gas are some of what the 5 phases change, but they are not the phases themselves. The phase of earth, which I haven't spoken much on, is the most important. Earth holds all of these complex expansions and contractions together as a whole system, constantly maintaining and adjusting the system's balance. Even as it is placed in the center, it is directed by what expands, is nourished by what expresses, and even as what expresses fades to nourish earth, earth is fed what it needs to know to begin the settling and contracting, and directs the stilling. Without the "Earth" phase, things would be out of balance, like on most planets that are either gaseous or solid. But even they have their relative changes and cycles.

Somewhat more to point about metal and water....

Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji, The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu, tl Eva Wong. A rather arcane text about immortality and internal alchemy - has quite a bit on how the five phases operate in the body in different ways.

Perhaps worry less about what you think you know (or what others know), and surrender your mind to train, in deepest humility, sincerity, and impeccability the lineage you have been gifted. Truly dedicate yourself and likely your ancestors will guide you deeper. Perhaps one of those ancestors is your teacher. The deeper I get, the more I find that answers come from within. This wasn't possible when I only looked outside and asked questions. Not saying that is what you're doing, just sharing.

Just a passing musing.... my intuition suggests it possible for memories to fade from history, to be cancelled out as the practitioner reaches certain achievements. Perhaps certain traces remain, as fated, but others simply vanish. Once I was searching for a youtube video of a taoist initiate. I had emailed this video to some people. However no traces could be found of the video or my sent emails. No doubt an error on my part, perhaps bad timing. Yet it raised this possibility to me, which I find difficult to dismiss.