Daeluin

As to how xiantian actually works, your guess is as good as mine. And perhaps I was confusing xian with tian - it seems the judgment was of regular old immortality after all, not celestial. Which confuses me even more, as I wouldn't think this is such a hurdle, should one's momentum be so aligned. In any case I'm sure all anyone can ask for is to do their best. This isn't a competition. As to this aging thing, I've been wondering. It seems the Jade Elixir is what turns back the aging clock and leads to physical immortality, but it is the Golden Elixir that leads to spiritual freedom. I've been wondering about this for a while, as it seems many will focus on cultivating the Golden Elixir and not worry about their physical immortality, taking that as a side-path, perhaps. And yet, as Taoist Texts' last comment points out, the tao is very paradoxical, and any truths we speak naturally contain untruths. So is the Jade Elixir just as important to cultivate as the Golden Elixir, even though it might seem to be leading one (perhaps temporarily) away from the golden light?

Do you believe torture is an appropriate way to get answers? Or fights? Or war? When someone is trapped by their own ego, often telling them "you're trapped by your own ego" and forcing them to admit to this will only close them off to any change that does not cause scars of trauma. On the other hand, compassionately listening and cultivating an environment of harmony and openness will lead them, given enough time, to open up into a place where they want to work on getting out of their trap. To be sure, not everything is able to be harmonious and beautiful - challenges blocking our way sometimes cause us hardship in overcoming them, and this hardship helps us to grow. At the same time, trauma can be difficult to heal. When facing such challenges I attempt to gradually raise my level of intensity and approach the challenge from a stable position. Truths that are only gained through battle may render those truths useless in application, if the battle changed the circumstance by which those truths may find use. You may have uncovered truths related to the heart that work for you, but are you going to force your way into the mysterious pass? Does that work? I certainly don't know, your mileage may vary. Seeking a balanced way has been more helpful for my own path, and as I get deeper into balance, I often uncover answers unveiling themselves automatically, without needing to ask questions or force anything. The way is simple to follow - it is one of balance.

Forcing things rarely helps anyone.

Sure, but the specific judgment was not of immortality, but celestial immortality. The definitions of celestial immortality I've read indicate one has completely dissolved one's physical body - not just left it behind. Edit: it seems I was mistaken, the judgment was not of celestial immortality, just immortality. I ponder this more below.

Perhaps distinction may be made between fate and destiny. Or, if one sees them as identical terms, perhaps distinction may be made on how one approaches dealing with them. To me, fate is what happens when one does not accept their lessons and makes decisions from selfish intent. The more resistant, the more complicated one's fate is to unravel. The unravelling of fate is what happens when one accepts their lessons and trusts to their path without selfishness. I've long thought of fate as the former and destiny as the latter, but I suppose they are the same post-celestial manifestation of ming. It is a matter of accepting or rejecting the momentum of one's true heart. This momentum was created by previous lifetimes and is affected by choices in one's current lifetime. If one is presented with difficult lessons and they seek to escape by means of Neidan, they will still need to somehow answer to these lessons in order to successfully transform their post-celestial ming into pre-celestial ming. The very momentum of the cycling energies and planets will influence how easy or difficult this might be. In addition, at the higher level it seems that before one fully returns it is common for one to choose (or get sucked into) the path of a bodhisattva, and so be of service to those who are struggling to find their way - even though this choice might prevent the fullest return to tao.

In my opinion, which is likely neither right or wrong completely, destiny is the momentum of one's soul within the celestial mechanism. Sure one can treat Neidan as a science and perform the work in isolation, but I doubt one will get where they want unless they are meant to. When we don't work in isolation, we learn to overcome the challenge of maintaining equanimity amidst whatever noise surrounds us, following the principles of the dao de jing like water, humility, frugality. Following this flow we may be led in a way that is uniquely our own, and be called to do things that only we can do. In this way we are of service to the tao, even as the tao serves us in return. In my studies of taoist stories destiny seems to be a common theme. Liu Yiming refers to the destiny given by heaven as the post-celestial ming, and says this destiny can be changed by cultivating it into the breath of tao, the pre-celestial ming. And yet Liu Yiming also advises against isolation: Perhaps one may change one's destiny though Neidan. But balance is fine art, and selfish intent does not assist one in connecting to the true heart. I do not believe it is wise to believe everyone should set their intent upon Neidan. I believe following the destiny given by heaven will also lead one toward what is pre-celestial. It is for each to decide on their own where their true heart leads. In any case, I hardly think any here are qualified to judge the various masters who have chosen to be of service to humanity. One may easily look at one's own attachement to judging right from wrong as means to measure one's progress within balance. Metal concerns discernment. Discernment may be balanced by acceptance or attached to with judgment.

Funny how Neidan is all about balancing polarity, yet here we see the encouraging and entrenchment of polarity. Surely this helps no one? You're all just leaking.

I don't see why someone would complete their transition into celestial immortality if their destiny requires teaching people who need to see a physical body.

The answer that arises for me relates to the principle of creation. It is easy for cycles to continue endlessly. And within these cycling layers, new layers unfold. Like a door opening into a room, and a door within that room opening into another room inside the same room, endlessly. Like conversation descending into tangent upon tangent, without reaching conclusion. Like the expanding universe. While creation is a beautiful phenomenon, when and how is this expansion addressed? As individuals operating in our own polarity of inside and outside, we may choose to return what is within back through all of these doors, to return closer to and perhaps one day beyond the origin. Contracting the universe a little. To do this we inwardly balance what has polarized until we are centered within and without, and to maintain it we externally yield to the unique flow of our own path without resistance, like water. Zhuangzi calls this walking two roads. Once the final polarity of inside and outside has been dissolved, and the physical and spiritual substances are no more, we have returned. At least that is my awkward perception. Some texts label this as celestial immortality. Zhuangzi says: As for the sage, he may admit that something exists beyond the six limits of the known world, but he does not further discuss it.

There are as many ways as there are parts of the divided whole.

My intuition, based on what I've learned, tells me that jing retention is most useful in the beginning as one sublimates and reclaims ming. It also may be helpful as a guide to get deeper/purer by avoiding leakage in the night. But after certain stages I gather an emission here and there will not threaten to topple one's foundation or upset one's progress in the same way, but may even be helpful in navigating one's own unique path. It's all about balance at the appropriate stages, not hard fast rules. Different principles apply at different stages of evolution. Finding tao requires both firmness and flexibility.

Bathe in the qi.

It has taken me a while to fully appreciate this. I now understand that judgments are projections of energy. It may be difficult to receive these unrefined projections, but if we reject, react to, or face them in any way but equanimous discernment, is that not our own judgment? Perhaps these gifts need refining, but gifts they remain. When one is already humble, how can insults result in humiliation? When one is not already humble, insults help one reach humility - to reject them is a loss. Perhaps this is related to the saying those who speak, don't know.... those who know, don't speak.

See also: http://thetaobums.com/topic/36094-gift-of-insults/

We already participate by leaking our wholeness out everywhere. To arrive at oneness we reclaim our wholeness through either acceptance or denial, until we are full again. When we are full there is no room to buffer ourselves from that which is not ourselves - we must face all with equanimity to maintain our wholeness. Discerning things is fine but when we judge them we give some of our wholeness to them. I accept your judgements as gifts and return them to you.

learning comes from a lineage application comes from within though what is learned may have its own provenance how one applies it is unique to one's own path

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have a quote that directly addresses this. Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy (tl. Pregadio):

Trust No One Yes, one should not hand over their keys to anyone. However, one will not get anywhere if they do not open to and trust the tao. And the tao comes in the form of every interaction of every moment.

When I read this it reminded me of taoist cosmology: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-paradoxes-that-threaten-to-tear-modern-cosmology-apart-d334a7fcfdb6

A possible and very rough parallel for Ming, Xing, and Ling, is Wood, Oxygen, and Fire. But if one is not careful, the fire will burn up its fuel and die. So the goal is to cultivate the substances so that the fire is more of a stable plasma that does not burn up and can be preserved - a life imbued liquid gold, if you will. And there are multiple levels where this principle is applied, as one uses the intention/will to refine, extract, and replenish what is true from what is false and Bite Through (hexagram 21) to a new layer of operation. Take this with many grains of salt.

Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy (tl. Pregadio): (text earlier emphasizes that Awakening to Reality begins at the stage after "laying the foundations" and thus begins with emphasizing Ming) The text goes on to describe two more methods of leading the heart to quiescence; these are Xing practices related to "laying the foundation" in conjunction with cultivation of Ming. And, of course... Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao (tl. Pregadio)

Holding to the cavity of spirit sounds similar to guarding unity - essentially keeping the heart in a state of quiescence so as to prevent the spending of what returns. If the heart is restless, how can one hope maintain preservation? Thus this is an essential practice. In that sense I feel you are all saying the same thing.

In a quiet courtyard in the spring, with evening's light filtering through the leaves, guests relax on the veranda and watch as two compete at wéiqí. Each calls into themselves the divine and the infernal, sculpting mountains and rivers into their world. Across the board, dragons and serpents array for battle, geese scatter as collapsing fortresses are sacked; masses die, pushed into pits by Qin's soldiers, and the drama's audience is left in awe of its General Jin. To sit at the board is to raise halberd and taste combat, to endure the freezing and brave the flames in the constant changes; life and death each will come to both masters, but victory and defeat must each go to one. On this road, one strips away the other's disguises, in life, one must erect one's own facade; dreadful is a wound to the exposed belly or heart, merely painful is an injury to the face, which can be cured; Effective is a blow that strikes home in an opponent's back, successful are schemes that use repeated feints and deceit. Look at the activity on the streets of our capital, if you were to go elsewhere, wouldn't it be the same? Shao Yong

Practice never ends or begins. But practice means different things to different people. If you're talking about qigong or meditation or some other method, the power of such methods lies in their influence towards greater balance. Thus magnitude of practice depends on what stage one is at and what one is trying to balance. And doing typically needs to be balanced with resting.

I can't read the taiji without seeing the wuxing inherent anymore. As to what came first... the undivided and in-distinguished.