Daeluin

I've read that taoism starts with water, Buddhism starts with fire. And I appreciate how in taoism water is deferred to as the base which supports and balances the extreme of fire. Without balancing heaven AND earth completely, can one truly transcend spiritual immortality and return to tao? I wonder how Buddhism accomplishes this. Edit - I don't intend to suggest that Buddhism does not work with "water." I don't know. But really I don't need to do anything more than follow where lead and learn the lessons I am brought before. Knowledge is endless, right and wrong are traps.

Taoism is where I was led. As a youth I was introduced to all available western religions and from this felt it was important that I walk my own way... years later and after putting together my own belief system I discovered taoism and found myself faced with a mirror image of my own beliefs... incredulous I began to study taoism cautiously until enough trust had been developed for me to accept that learning from this particular school was a direction in full resonance with my own path. I found that these teachings take a lifetime to fully understand, and I imagine this is true for Buddhism as well. Can someone truly understand the true perspective of multiple ancient lineages well enough to comment on where they ultimately lead without surrendering one's self fully to training in that particular art? Zhuangzi says there is no right or wrong, there is only what is right in front of us.

Thank you. This notion of activation puzzled me at first, and then it became the key I was looking for. I now comprehend how my school's curriculum is subtly designed to lead to this activation. Further it is apparent why these methods are kept hidden - such activation is a personal process and is not easy for one to comprehend and realize unless they are meant to and ready to. It would appear this activation is inherent within specific stages of the pre-celestial arrangement of the ba gua, and is also more detailed within the King Wen sequence of the yijing, and is directly related to the firing process, and the types of fire. These are all principles, and may be applied in different ways to achieve the same results. Some schools use the waterwheel, some use martial arts, some use other methods, but all are able to achieve the same results by applying their own unique methods at the appropriate stages. I would venture to say the principle here is that a method which produces the desired result at the appropriates stage is a true method, and that a false method is one which does not produce the necessary result for the stage one is at. In terms of activation, I would cautiously speculate that many people today use artificial methods to activate their Ling for recreational purposes. Perhaps this is a sign of our yearning for collective evolution to the next stage, and thus is important to acknowledge and address. However this is unfortunate, as this does not allow appropriate control over the alchemical process, nor have the prerequisite stages been accomplished in order to allow harnessing and making use of the substance to create the appropriate medicines and elixirs at their respective stages, and so people merely burn up their precelestial xing. I imagine it is more finely nuanced than this, but seems to add up. Liu Yiming says: Although Numinous (靈) Mercury is the treasure of Heaven, by its nature it loves movement: "When it sees Fire if flies away." Unless you obtain True Lead to control it, it roams away without leaving traces. (tl Pregadio, Cultivating the Tao, chapter 8). So people need to avoid using artificial means and learn to activate their Ling on their own, after the necessary preparations have been made. It would appear there are different types of Ling that need to be activated at the appropriate stages in the alchemical process, and that they all follow the same cosmological principles, and are all influenced by one's timing within the celestial mechanism. These are my unrefined speculations. Am I on the right track here?

Thanks, this is beginning to become clearer. Having an astrologer as a parent, I've been studying planetary cycles from an early age. But what interested me more was the structure of how it all fit together spiritually, so rather than taking it towards counselling I took it towards understanding. But ultimately I was led towards Taoist Cosmology, and this past year took me far into the depths of the five phases and their complex application in the energy cycles of Chinese Astrology. Then in Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao, is a chapter on the Celestial Net star and its importance in inner work and its function of sharing the power of the Pole Star. Perhaps some of the essences and principles related to cosmology I've come to understand as important on my journey might be worth sharing here. As Brian says, the center of the universe is everywhere and nowhere. My sense is that at the early stages of cosmology, dimensional space has yet to come into being, and thus the center would not be found within "3 dimensional space." And yet we can trace the way back through time to this center and connect to it within ourselves. Amidst the unceasing motion of the Earth, the Moon, the Planets, the Sun, the stars, perhaps this can be seen as attempting to balance oneself atop an ever moving stack of blocks aeons tall. So to help one find, maintain, and increase finesse of balance, it is very important to be able to always orient oneself within an ever changing cosmological environment. One of the things that often seems foreign to people is the concept of retrograde motion of the planets. The planets are one of the most easily felt shifting momentums surrounding us, and they move slow enough to be easy to flow with, but they don't always act they way we might think. As we move in our orbit around the Sun, sometimes we will pass another planet, similar to how one car passes another on a road. At first one approaches, then passes, then leaves it behind - it then has the apparent effect of moving backwards. For example Saturn - associated with structure, integrity, the 5 phase element of Earth, is currently moving forward from our perspective, but this Summer after we pass it, will appear to move backwards for a little while. This has a perceived effect of causing us to revisit themes related to structure, integrity, responsibility in our lives that we've just come from. Trouble is, most of us are attached to moving forward at a constant rate, and when we get pulled backwards we tend to feel off-kilter, unbalanced. So the principle here for dealing with the motion of the planets is to accept the forward and backwards momentum of the planets, and to allow ourselves to move with them without losing our balance, without expectation of thinking we know where we are going. It gets a little more nuanced when we realize that as we approach it appears to slow down, then stop, then slowly move backwards - this is when a planet is considered "Stationary", and the related influences settle into a moment of perceived stillness during this time before going backwards. In theory this should make these changes of direction even easier to sense and adjust to. Once we are able to find balance within our Solar System (which of course implies balance within the Earth-Moon dynamic first), then we can become sensitized to the finer changes within the Galactic Center, and so on. But it isn't all just planets and gravities - the cosmological energies of yin, yang and the five phases operate on a different layer. Liu Yiming (Pregadio) says: My sense is that the layout of the stars, in relation to the axis of the Earth, have a profound effect on the interplay of energy. In Chronicles of Tao the student realizes in meditation how his acupuncture points are all aligned with the layout of the stars. In all of this, timing within this incredibly dynamic menagerie of momentum is most important. The moment something is created, it sets a foundation of perspective upon that snapshot of balance within the entire universe. The way energies and momentums unfold after that point have a strong influence on how the life of that creation is shaped, and even though that life has control over its own momentum, the surrounding momentums are too vast to belittle when it comes to spiritual evolution. Further, the pattern of a spirit's existing past life momentum has a strong influence as to the timing of its next birth. Therefore the timing of birth is both the result of one's existing momentum and will also determine how likely one is to succeed at various spiritual pursuits. Again, in Chronicles of Tao the student attempts to go all the way without heeding his masters strong advice that he discover his destiny, and becomes rudely brought back to earth by his neighbor's sudden blasting of music. These concepts continue to be reinforced for me as I foray deeper into taoist mysticism. Even as I recognize just how little I grasp of the ancients' understanding of the celestial mechanism. Does any of this relate to Ling? Could Ling be thought of as the spiritual momentum of the soul within the celestial mechanism? And then Ling Gong might be the cultivation of this spiritual momentum?

The "creative" is typically the trigram of heaven ☰, which doubled yields Hexagram 1 ䷀, "The Creative." But this is where the cosmology comes into place. If you look at the taiji symbol, the central dots play an important role. Bright Yang and Terminal Yin. They represent how the mixing of yang and yin come to divide and separate into new self-contained paradigms within the ebb and flow of Lesser Yang, Greater Yang, Lesser Yin, Greater Yin, and the dynamic by which the layers of creation unfold and become more and more diverse. This is where Fire and Water come in. Water, K'an, can be translated to "pit," as a pit one might fall into, pulled by gravity. Fire, Li, can be translated as "separation," as in something has been separated from it. The trigrams help to show this principle - Li ☲ is mostly yang, but is said to contain the "true yin." Li is ☰, separated from the true yang. K'an ☵ is outwardly yin, but contains the "true yang" that it sucked out of ☰. This principle can be applied on multiple layers, and inner alchemy is concerned with extracting and replenishing what is true from what is false and returning to a state before things are hidden. At least that's my perception as a seeker. Ultimately I believe finding needs no seeking and that seeking prevents finding.

As jing is often translated as essence as well, I think it's good that we have clarifiation, so that people don't think jing and xing are the same thing. The more I understand these original Chinese terms, the more context I am able to uncover when I read translations. Nice thread. From what I've read, the "one opening of the mysterious barrier", the "mysterious female", the "mysterious pass" are all the same thing. Anyone care to confirm/deny this? If there is a difference, does it pertain to difference stages, or is this all related to the same stage? As to location, it is related to the undivided center. But the entire self is the center - every part is the center, so in this sense it has no center. There are two parts - centering in one's self, and centering in the universe. Decibelle has a good thread about this titled "mysterious female." Also, to reach this center, I believe one needs the golden elixir, hence why Liu Yiming says the one opening of the mysterious barrier is the same as the golden elixir. As for Ling, I'm not sure. Have you read Wang Mu's Foundations of Inner Alchemy, translated by Pregadio? It goes way beyond foundations and speaks directly about how one might create and merge the two elixirs from your quote. I'm not sure what authors typically translate Ling as though, and your quote has perked my interest. I also recommend Pregadio's translation of Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao, which is a good companion to Foundations as it gives greater context on all of these concepts. Then there's Wang Liping's Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu which from the title appears to deal directly with Ling and I believe is a training manual for the the untranslated Ling Bao Bi Fa text, to which Eva Wong's translated classic of Chong and Lu is a commentary of, or vice versa. I feel all of these together should give a comprehensive understanding of Neidan, if one has some guided experience to go along with it. Funny how one pretty much needs to forget about everything one learns to apply it, and yet if one doesn't know where to go when experiencing these things naturally, it is difficult to proceed. Guess that's why the most important concept comes first.

People begin life being exposed to patterns that will repeatedly shape who they are and how they cope with others and the world. Often we are exposed so much to the patterns and imbalances of our parents that we take on their patterns in our own ways. A parent with codependency issues may influence similar codependency issues in their child, even if that child doesn't feel they are co-dependently tied in such a way, but somehow after they leave home and are on their own, have relationship after relationship where they yearn for the same type of co-dependency. It's a subtle thing, and certainly wouldn't seem related, so I doubt most people are able to make the connection... even as one relationship end and they draw themselves into another with the same dynamic. Also, whatever of us that is waiting to reincarnate has a unique pattern, and cannot reincarnate without the proper elements and matching patterns at hand. So we reincarnate into a very precise mixture of family, place, and time. I suspect that the more in balance our patterns are when we die, the easier it is to find the necessary elements, and, conversely, the more extreme the patterns we create, the longer we might need to wait to find the right elements. Some taoist theories believe we begin with pure unconditioned energy, and over time we condition it, and learn to express via the five phases. At first these five phases are expressions that are rooted in this vast source of unconditioned energy, but over time that source diminishes. When the five phases are balanced, they can create that unconditioned energy again. But most people's five phase expressions are not balanced, so when their unconditioned wealth becomes diminished, suddenly they begin to struggle in whatever unbalanced form their patterns exist in. Finding five phase balance requires inner work and acceptance of one's issues... but many people are too afraid of their inner truths to "look in the mirror," and when life sends them lessons rather than accepting them, they project them back outwards, even though they'll only return again in less easy to deal with ways. The stronger their rejection of their own inner self, the more judgmental they seem to be regarding others. Taoist practices like Qi Gong help one to rebalance one's energetic imbalances, and the deeper one goes with them the more one can learn to not only find balance, but to replenish the lost unconditioned energy and return to health as one had as a youth. Our energy is pretty similar to money in a bank account... can't just use it up more than you replenish it, or it'll empty out. But at the same time, when you take energy from your surroundings, it comes from somewhere else - it isn't unlimited. I've been taught that we're born with enough to accomplish our destinies, but that most people just use it up on whatever they want. So if we've wasted our energy and then use Qigong to replenish it from the environment, we should be careful to work towards being able to pay back those loans by the services we provide to our environment. When people say this energy is limitless, it's similar to those who say one person littering doesn't matter. People like to stick with what they think works for them. Even though we all know change is the only constant, people deeply fear change, especially inner change. The more people allow themselves to change the more they will grow and mature. But all too often you find people so attached for so long that even when they want to change there is just so much fixed momentum built up that it would take some serious effort and a major mindset change to produce any lasting effects. Planetary cycles have a profound effect on maturity. Think of it like walking around a building for the first time. The first time around everything is new, but as soon as you reach the spot where you began, things become familiar. Especially the Saturn cycle, which completes after around 30 years. Western Astrology says Saturn represents responsibility, time, structure, career, etc. Chinese Astrology / Taoism believes it is related to the phase of Earth, which is related to Integrity, sincerity, responsibility, so pretty much the same. So when one makes their first complete walk around the building of responsibility, suddenly the lessons one is brought to regarding responsibility become familiar, and one goes through a deep maturation process and perhaps feels able to pick up the reigns of their life with more authority, having been taught the ropes, so to say. For those who neglect their lessons of responsibility, when their Saturn Return comes they tend to feel uneasy and unwilling to start learning those same lessons they already rejected, and there is a tendency for some to enter into complete life changes - starting a new career, marriage, family are all common themes. Interestingly I've seen many a "hippy" turn "yuppy" after their Saturn Return commences and suddenly they feel a need to let go of ideals and settle down. "Evolutionary Astrology" has a very similar take on stages of a soul's spiritual maturity. http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/essence-of-ea/the-four-evolutionary-states Hmmm... both Evolutionary Astrology and Taoism also believe heavily in cycles. For example, Venus moves faster than Mars. So if Venus is a little ahead of Mars when you were born, it is the beginning of a new Venus-Mars cycle, and implies the gravities of these planets will have a new-ish type of influence on this individual in relation to how one integrates the Venus-Mars energies as one. On the other hand if Mars is a little ahead of Venus when one is born, is the end of the cycle, and one would have a very mature and wise perspective relating to how Venus-Mars energies integrate with each other. On paper it sounds complicated, but really it is the same as how one might feel at the beginning of a new year of school - new classmates, teachers, classroom, subjects.... in contrast to the end of the school year, when one is graduating and moving into a new cycle. Thanks for this topic, and best wishes to you as well!

I've been taught: when one has nothing to give, give the gift of emptiness. not exactly sure how to apply that in a memorable way, but certainly seems like a limitless equation. often, especially for parents, gifts to the heart and not of substance are the most memorable. like a beautiful poem or story reminiscing upon things that only the two of you could truly appreciate, or something that is able to touch upon the heart and essence of truth that lies within the other that only you would know. such gifts are priceless.

One of my co-workers is a wood-horse, and it wasn't until this past year that I really got to understand why he is always in permanent hyper-mode. Perhaps this year will help you understand your father better!

I haven't studied the math on this in depth or anything, but it occurs to me that tomorrow is the second new moon since the moment of the winter solstice. This lunar-solar cycle thing sure is complicated. It's starting to feel like the new year to me, but I wonder how I'll feel tomorrow...

Yes, I believe the shape of one destiny is predefined by past doings. Both "wrong" and "right," "good" and "bad." But perhaps the unravelling of these twists is the most direct method of Neidan, and the only one that matters. I believe that "fate" is how gravity of life may draw out one's energies into creation at the expense of one's life. Conversely "destiny" is where one becomes accountable for their past, aims at the tao and gives answer to where one is led with unwavering equanimity - the necessary intention and sincerity required for this naturally influence alchemical reactions without needing to understand them. And to not derail too much, from what I've read on Neidan, this is how one builds the foundation - by allowing it to return and guarding it. And to be clearer, this quote is referenced at the very beginning under the section title: 1. Main Points in the Practice of "Laying the Foundations"

Hmmm.... I wonder what methods the spiritual turtle from Opening the Dragon Gate used.

It cannot? And you know how.... wait, who's projecting omnipotence? You speak of groping in the dark while I speak of evolving. You speak of one absolute route, but I'm saying there are different ways to see it. So different they wouldn't seem like Neidan at all, though they do the same thing ultimately. The spiritual paradigm shift you do not see coming is not one that may be predicted by clinging to rigid frameworks. I feel you are trying to tell "Columbus" the world is flat, that he is blind. Maybe you're right. I like to allow possibility. But I certainly don't know anything.

Is this your declaration of omnipotence? Let people find their own ways. No they don't all lead to xiantian-hood this life-time, nor should they. Many are those who seek immortality before they are ready for it, but in one way or another, they will find their true way, even if it takes thousands of trials. I feel it is important to redirect people to the heart, to emptiness, to the tao. But the way to these things comes from connecting to them through one's own heart - we find balance through listening to the calling of our own destiny. A lineaged master taught this to me, bemoaning the many who practice various "spiritual trainings" when they are being called to fulfill their destiny by every step of their lives. I was taught we are all born with exactly the amount of energy required to fulfill our destiny and in so doing achieve self mastery. And that every time we fail, we end up dying and finally looking back at the gift of our life with full understanding of what we needed to do, and spend time waiting and waiting for the opportunity to do it right this next time. The east is merging with the west; taoists recently rejected in the east perhaps are being reborn into western lands along with the germinating teachings of their homeland. Even as the deeper roots are slowly uncovered, so too will new changes come as pathfinders blaze a trail up the western side of the mountain. Telling them they aren't on the eastern trails is hardly as helpful as calling down from the top.

I believe much can be done without a teacher, and everything needs to be done on one's own anyway. As has been said once we get far enough to communicate with our spirit guides, we find teachers aplenty. I believe the trouble is in actually getting that far blindfolded. With training methods that work for us, humility, sincerity will go a long way, and if we let it, our energy will sometimes guide us naturally. Yet most of us are off-kilter just a bit without knowing it. A classmate once asked me: why is it when I do improvisational qi-gong it always feels so good, but when I do taiji there are places where I feel stuck? The answer that came to me was this: the stuck places in the taiji form likely represent blockages, or blind spots - working through them slowly may enable one to become comfortable with them. I believe this is how uses the form to enter the formless - if one plays at formlessness from the beginning, how does one know if it is complete? And yet all too often many of us want to feel confident that we actually get something. The example set by society would have us believe we are reaching the highest of the heights, and just how much has that mentality set in to our own subconscious workings? So, I believe one should set out with humility and sincerity, aiming to do the work on their own. And as they progress the tao will bring them teachers - it is up to one to determine if this or that teacher reaches the root one's heart is bent upon, and if that teacher's methods allow the proper amount of freedom for one to progress on their own path. If not simply maintain sincerity - another teacher will appear, in one fashion or another. Patience is paramount, even as one must be wary of stagnation. As far as online teachers go, I doubt the internet is the best medium for spiritual transmission. IMO the best teachers don't lean on words. Edit: this is pretty much what idquest already said. The Internet is changing as fast as we are changed by it, and words drive it less and less...

Do you know how to walk? Yes? Good. Do you know how to walk in a straight line? Good... Wow, you even know how to turn at specific angles accurately. Amazing! Now, let me place you on this mountain trail, place a blindfold upon you and away you go, I'll be waiting at the top! No peeking now.... what, you don't know where the trail leads? OK, here's a map. You memorized it already, incredible! Wait, even with the map you still have trouble here and there? OK, let me watch over your progress and nudge you here and there. Take good note of when and where I do the nudging - this is where you have a blind spot in need of repair.

with humility one cannot be cast down with sincerity one cannot be shaken with time unwavering humility and sincerity become powerful

Ahem... from the horses mouth shall we say?

DDJ 78, Jonathan Star: Nothing in this world is as soft and yielding as water Yet for attacking the hard and strong none can triumph so easily It is weak, yet none can equal it It is soft, yet none can damage it It is yielding, yet none can wear it away Everyone knows that the soft overcomes the hard and the yielding triumphs over the rigid Why then so little faith? Why can no one practice it? So the Sages say, fulfill even the lowest position love even the weakest creature Then you will be called "Lord of every offering" "King of all below Heaven"

I found Ni Hua Ching's The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth to be very insightful and spiritual. The descriptions and stories following each hexagram really helped gain meaningful insight. Some interpretations of the I Ching lack much of a human element, making interpretation for beginners more challenging. Ni Hua Ching, in my opinion, manages to provide a very human element to the I Ching, which helps understanding of the great depth of information provided, and also helps make the spiritual element of the I Ching more accessible. In regards to coins or sticks, both methods can produce multiple changing lines. For a beginner this can be complicated to read. Ni Hua Ching recommends a simpler method that does not produce changing lines. Instead it always yields one hexagram and one line. The hexagram represents the type of change that relates to the question. A hexagram may describe a certain dynamic of change, but this dynamic is composed of multiple components. For the beginner it is most important to learn to understand how to identify how these components work together. For example, line 6 of hexagram 36 represents being oblivious to one's situation - the truth is concealed, even as one acts as though they know the truth, blind to their own ignorance. But line 1 of hexagram 36 represents one who knows the truth and recognizes that the truth is not appropriate for the current situation, so they deliberately exercise patience, concealing their illumination to engender harmony rather than competition. When attempting an interpretation of the hexagrams, it really helps to thoroughly understand the perspective of each line. I also like this method, called the seed method, as it feels more truly random to me. It is very simple, quick, and quiet - no rattling coins. On merely pinches between two fingers 7 small piles of rice from a bowl. The first six piles are placed in a vertical line following the example of the lines in a hexagram - the first line is at the bottom, the last at the top. An even number of seeds is a yin line. An odd number of seeds is a yang line. The seventh pile identifies the line number - if there are six or less seeds in this seventh pile, then the number of seeds represents the line. If there are more than six seeds in the seventh pile, simply subtract 6 until there are less than six remaining. For example, if there are 11 seeds in the seventh pile, 11 - 6 = line 5. Wishing the best to you (and others) in your new exploration of intuition with the book of changes!

Wikipedia has some good info. In addition to that, I recently stumbled over this in Wang Mu's Foundations of Inner Alchemy (tl. Pregadio). Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but perhaps it will help. Also some images here.

Nice one! That's like placing sincerity and integrity in stillness, helping to settle the ambitions and desires, yielding tranquillity and wisdom. Also known as using Earth to settle Water.

I remembered that and thought about referencing it, but went with my memory of my 5th grade teacher's description, including closet ingredient.... naturally it wouldn't work without the closet. The inverting lenses sound a bit easier to try - I never did attempt hanging upside down for that long. On the other hand, prolly best to leave well enough alone. I'll just let my eyes perceive up and down as they wish, or better yet go beyond the use of eyes at all. Heck for that matter if one is perceptive enough what is the point in coin tossing? It's the same coin... “An item,” he said softly, his eyes on the disc, “that passes without provenance, pursued by many who thirst for its cold kiss, on which life and all that lay within life is often gambled. Alone, a beggar’s crown. In great numbers, a king’s folly. Weighted with ruin, yet blood washes from it beneath the lightest rain, and to the next no hint of its cost. It is as it is, says Kruppe, worthless but for those who insist otherwise.” - Stephen Erikson

In my experience, the same principles apply, speed wise. Can't move fast without being able to move slow. But baguazhang is considered a graduate level art. Taijiquan tends to move forward, back, left and right. It really helps build a foundation in working in different linear directions, and learning to develop the circle within the square, the spiraling, fluid motion that needs to exist inside of the straight line movements. Xingyiquan incorporates diagonals and five phase work, building on the yin-yang exploration of taijiquan, but is still very linear. But baguazhang incorporates all of that spiralling power into circular movements that are designed to express in any direction at any time. Baguazhang has application for multiple opponents in multiple directions, and one needs to be aware of all angles simultaneously. I've been told that, traditionally, one should walk the circle for a decade before learning the baguazhang form. I perceive this as a principle, not a rule, and view the emphasis given to circle walking as a key to unlocking the secrets of the bagua form. Perhaps people teach / practice bagua fast without really developing a foundation, or perhaps the move fast because they've already developed a foundation. Who knows? I'd imagine bagua is more spiritual, but as others have said it totally depends on how the internal is taught and developed. A friend of mine once joined a bagua school that was totally external oriented, and I doubt this approach would take one very deeply down a spiritual path. This is why I feel people should let their heart and intuition to guide them to the right teacher, who might not even teach martial arts. The better you're able to get in touch with your heart, the more confidence you'll have that you're walking the road you that aligns with your destiny.