Daeluin

Anything to say about members who regularly defend their ways of putting others down?

Thanks, I agree. It is clear that nothing is really up for a discussion here. I have no interest in changing deci belle, I was simply interested in discussing the reasons for her way. The way things are though, I'll adapt and go on my way. Hopefully this thread will help others confused by any sudden slicing that should occur, and know not to let it bother them. Don't let deci's judgmental slicing ruin your day. She may be pretty close to the mark with her slicing, but you are likely reacting more to her violent methodology. Try to avoid seeing it as a personal stab, and go about your day. That's what db'll be doing. Whether or not this is the type of environment the mods want to cultivate for our discussions is a different topic.

Anything which causes an extreme change in perception of one's reality will tend to shake up the balance of one's momentum through change, inviting further extremes of perception (highs and lows) amidst the various cycles through life. To balance one's momentum in change amidst strong extreme changes requires an equally matched strength of intention. Martial arts and exercise can help metabolize the effects of extreme change, raising the intensity of the dynamic to encompass both ends of the polarity. There are reports of LSD begin given to a guru high up in the mountains in the 60's, and the guru actually took a bit more than what is considered a safe dose... but showed no external signs of discomfort and didn't say much other than that he felt just fine. Adepts in awareness are already operating at a different level; and their body chemistry has already been altered significantly and perception operates differently for them. Perhaps different in the way that psychedelic drugs are said to effect the brain and perception, and thus don't pose the same type of threat to one's balance in reality as they might to those of us who are more in the beginning stages. Modern society doesn't train us very deeply in the ways of navigating spiritual energy, and I wonder if psychedelics are the best way to properly train this awareness. The more this level of perception is altered and developed by forces external to one's own spiritual devising, likely the more difficult to achieve clarity of understanding, at least one one's own, and unless this happens to be one's natural path. It is up to each of us as to the flavor of extreme change we operate under. Some chose to cultivate simplicity, to aid in getting deeper. Other choose to go wild. Is there only one path to balance? No. But it is also said that life is like a sine wave, with a limited length. The more extreme jumps, the shorter the length. The smoother and more gradual the ups and downs, the longer the length.

Momentum is an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps db slices true, and affects an energetic slicing clean through the dirt of non-reality straight to the void. But does she stick around to maintain this? No. As momentum rolls along, the emptiness is filled based on details of the previous inertia, and is unlikely to result in further emptiness. Instead we get what we see here all the time. Chaos, frustration, emotion. Sure, all of these things are temporal, but I see db's methodology resulting in pushing people away from the path, rather than being helpful. You apparent refusal to relinquish your violence upon others is certainly clinging to something. Yes, I do. And thus I have no desire to do violence upon you. We are already one; why would I seek division within? My posting has been one of intended harmonization, and I do not welcome the support of those who would rather push db away. Whatever your inner reality, you must face that the outer reality is beyond your control. These personality issues regularly cause results that undermine your teachings, and it is surprising to me that you do not see this. I see through it to a person who remains detached and unaffected by the outside environment. I see through it to a person who identifies as being separate from this "illusory" external environment and can only be separate from it. I see this as a polarity preventing this person from developing further - ALL polarities much be dissolved, or you will not shatter the emptiness. There are many ways to be hidden. What is obviously pointed out on the surface many not be true of the core. Those of greater development will be invisible to you, even though you may judge them by what they allow others to see. Real and Unreal do not define a person; the momentum and changing of real and unreal throughout their entire journey defines this. You may be able to look far through time, but you cannot with 100% accuracy predict how that person will change. By thinking that seeing what is real and unreal in a person means you know them and have the right to judge them is only going to invite clash. You are getting in your own way here, even though you do not attach to your judgments, they still attach karma to your emptiness. If there are no limits, why do you speak in absolutes? Why do you cause division when your aim is the infinite? Taoism believes all life is sacred. We do not desire for there to be casualties, and we ever allow possibility to exist among what other beliefs would term suffering. Thus we do not allow polarization to rule us and separate us from the infinite. We do this by not building ourselves up, and following what is low, even as we soar above on what is great. All is one, and any separation must defend itself, as ultimately it too will be dissolved.

More attacking. Like I said, feel free. Why do you care so much about the surface level of my actions? I am exactly where I need to be, and your comments reach no true depth. Whatever you cut away at the surface means nothing to me, I don't need it, nor is that why I am here. Why the need to violate the rules? I approached you with sincerity and respect, asking a question related to the topic of this thread. But you seem uninterested in an equal and civil sharing of the energy we have both contributed to this conversation, and I can only assume your attacks are a device to transform this sharing into a winner-loser type situation, where only one person retains freedom to go their way. At least this is my read on your approach to #17 - you still have not clarified the questions I asked about the contradictions regarding what is recommended in that post and what your behavior represents. You speak of me being pathetic - but who is the one looking down on everyone else here? All in the tao is one - what gives you the right to act with such entitlement?

I love how adaptable the I Ching is to the myriad layers of life. The more surface layers tend to quite busy, and the resulting hexagrams describe myriad combinations of change. And as I reach deeper into stillness before making a consultation, the I Ching offers description on layers that are more profound and subtle, but also these layers have fewer moving parts and are simpler to understand. But this whole layers thing is also in operation with my relationship to the I Ching. Over time I am able to cut through more surface level understandings and uncover much deeper and more profound meanings to the systems of changes described. To me this is part of the operation of the hexagram 21, Biting Through. One investigates principle in various ways, as though navigating a maze. Often we remain stuck in the current layer, but from time to time we break through, and the operation of the top line frees us from our old paradigm and shows us a brand new way of seeing things. Part of the beauty of the I Ching is it's simplicity. It suffers our complicated understandings of the world and ever offers a way to get deeper, always remaining true. At even deeper levels of profundity one needs look no further than the 8 trigrams.

Poignancy is pre-eminent and precludes prevarication.

Sliced. Edit: deci opened this thread to answer questions about her nature. I chose to take this opportunity to sincerely ask about her slicing. When db declared "Sliced." above, I felt this as a deliberate and unwarranted attack, and thus responded in kind with my own "Sliced", so as to maintain our energetic balance. To not reply in balance would be to invite an imbalanced exchange of energy between us, as outlined in #17. However, that is not the only way to deal with this uninvited aggression and I wish to amend my response. deci belle, your slicing cuts through nothing of mine but emptiness. Slice as you like, I invite you. My sincerity remains unaffected and your verbal declarations, which in no way address my posts, reach no depth. In addition, I have done my best to avoid placing any attachment beyond curiosity to this polarity I identified, and that curiosity has now been satisfied. Unless further attacked I see no further reason to answer you. Until our paths cross again, in any case.... the wind blows where the wind wills....

What is it: Imagine your are standing parallel to the circumference of a circle with feet together. Now turn the waist to face the center of the circle. Remain turned to the center of the circle as you sink the weight to the inside foot and lightly step with the outside foot. This foot will naturally step along the circumference of the circle as long as you maintain turning the waist towards the center of the circle. In this stance, the weight is fully on the back foot and the front foot is light and could reposition or pivot with ease. Now shift the weight towards this foot, transferring the weight to the front foot while rooting with the back foot, then become light with the back foot and make an inside step. Again, because the waist is turned to the center of the circle, the foot will naturally position along the circumference of the circle. Now walk like this, slowly shifting weight and maintaining focus on the center of the circle. Keep the head level as you move around the circle. Go slow at first and try to stay low and avoid bobbing up and down. Use a tree or post to walk around to get used to it. Explore walking a wide circle at first, and as you get better, walking a smaller circle. The hands can be held in different postures, such as both palms pressing down, palms flat thumbs open, forming a triangle pointing towards the center of the circle, but not touching each other. Or with the inside palm facing the center of the circle, index finger aligned with the tip of the nose, elbow dropped, elbow and shoulder relaxed, outside palm protective underneath the elbow of the inside palm, both palms alive. Change periodically. When the inside foot steps lightly forward, pivot on the heel, swinging the ball of the foot to the outside of the circle, then shift the weight to this foot. Both feet are now "pidgen toed." now pivot the other foot and adjust the waist to turn back to the center of the circle and begin walking again. To change when stepping forward with the outside foot follows the same principle, but you pivot inside. What does it do: Helps create circular flow of energy in the body. Walking around a central point with the head level starts implementing a circular energy movement. When you change, you spin the body in the other direction and the energy adjusts, spinning inside the body. At first going slowly allows the energy to sink more deeply... but as one progresses one speeds up, and is able to spin more rapidly. Have you ever spun around in a circle until you were dizzy, and maybe even fell over? Training in circle walking harnesses and develops this circular power so that you won't get dizzy, but will be able to pivot and change directions very rapidly without losing orientation. One learns to utilize the momentum of pivoting as a force to push against. Ever see a cat falling up-side-down suddenly twist mid-air to land on its feet? After regularly walking the circle, one will develop an ease of adaptability, nimbly responding to situations rather than remaining stuck looking from one perspective. The linear slowly ceases to be the predominant dynamic, and one becomes able to see things from different angles and perspectives. Rather than face a situation head on, one may naturally slip around the edges. There is much much more involved with this. The circle hides many subtle mysteries. They say one should walk the circle for ten years before learning bagua chuang. They say one walks the circle to find the tao. After one walks the circle long enough one becomes invisible.

Oh I dunno about getting used to anything, but I appreciate your explanation. To me, slicing makes things personal, and you just spoke of becoming sufficiently impersonal so as to affect spiritual freedom. Seems contradictory to me... rather than being impersonal to find freedom, you slice your way free in a one sided way. This is what I was leading to with compassion and humility. To me, compassion and humility are ways to affect the impersonal reward of freedom you mention, and no force is required to cut one's self free. I feel compassion and humility in many of your posts, but not when you slice. Perhaps I'm miss-understanding what drives you to slice.

Given the consumerist nature of most countries with leisurely access to the internet, it is no surprise when people are easily side-tracked by tangents, and react to hooks in other's words. These things easily divert the flow of the conversation from the OP, and can be frustrating. But also these types of impulsive posts can carry emotion. It's hard to say what type of response a particular post may generate, and often discussions revolve around the very root of something. This will likely to open portals for people into deeper layers, and it's hard to say what might be a trigger for others, or what in our own words has too much bias. With age and experience comes maturity and wisdom, but often at the cost of adaptability. Even those whose communication is very sophisticated, and who carefully hone their words to be as non-reactive as possible, cannot always hope to avoid pushing against someone else's very differing perspectives and boundaries. But often it seems the wise will avoid responding to reactionary posts, and simply ignore that poster. I see the trouble coming when someone feels hurt by such a post, and does engage in the polarity... usually the polarity will only maintain itself. deci belle wrote a very interesting post last night on the exchange of energy in conversation, and how simply letting go and ignoring a poster is akin to capitulating. While I don't think it is as black and white as this, I do feel this raises an interesting point that is often overlooked, and invites a deeper journey into how energy trades hands here. I've very clearly felt this exchange, and on both sides. Often I imagine it is what triggers others to reach out to the staff in the first place. On the defeated or attacked side, if you don't reply appropriately, the attacker will take the bulk of the energy created by the polarity, and leaving one feeling somewhat deflated with a sense of injustice. On the other hand, if you happen to "win" such an exchange, you may feel a boost of energy coming from nowhere. I've been learning to recognize this, as it isn't something I want - I aim for a balanced exchange. But some here do seem to engage others head on in a winner takes all exchange, never giving up their position. Is having a rigid position a bad thing? If you are the OP with such a position, is it OK to unwaveringly defend any who attempt to challenge this position, when challenge is unwelcome in the first place? Or is it only bad when someone drops in and starts calling people wrong and it isn't even their thread? In either case many unsuspecting people spend effort at sharing with others who have no intention of bending, and they end up feeling drained at the end. I can see this causing others to feel unsafe. But can we say these members are in the wrong, even if their actions repeatedly cause friction? Some may not start it, but invite it - are they wrong? Some may start it, but with the intention of going deeper and cutting through confusion - are they wrong? Or is it not wrong in the beginning, but wrong when it starts to get out of hand? Is there anything that can be done to help educate new posters in the art of posting, or is this too subtle to expect that will make much difference? Often new members won't be prepared by the full spectrum of perspective from which others will read their words, and will be surprised and maybe even shocked by what their words trigger. These are just my thoughts. I've only been posting here a few months, so I'm sure I've missed quite a bit. Several times I've heard old hands say how much better things have become. I think some well written suggestions for new members could be helpful, but that safe is a very relative term, and it is likely joining any internet forum is going to open one's eyes a bit. That said, I feel this is a very great place to post, and that there is much more compassion being shared by this community than there is force. Thank you, all of you who work so hard behind the scenes to help keeps things running so smoothly!

I'd avoid letting the knees go past the toes. Feet parallel to each other, thighs approaching parallel to the earth, feet approximately shoulder width apart but proportional to body as well - I'm fairly tall and need to go wider. The feet and knees are relaxed, receptive like hexagram 2, the balls of the feet are hooked into the earth and the heel is relaxed, allowing the qi to travel up the achilles tendon and allowing the posture to support itself by this up-flow of energy rather than forcing it with strength - it will take time - learn to relax into the posture. From Nei Gong: The Authentic Classic: This book is full of stuff like this. Excellent resource on stance posture.

Thanks for this great game idea Panda, and for being so giving!

Thank you, this is beautifully worded. I find this to be the concept of maintaining sincerity. The importance of the continuous operation of the furnace and cauldron. Yes, we must remain responsible for every interaction. We must keep our wings flapping or spread, soaring, otherwise we won't remain flying for very long. Giving in and going out for a drink rather than facing the rising winds in our path may mean we must rebuild months of progress. I suppose this is what I am asking you about: How does slicing fat fellows allow you the freedom to avoid getting netted up in the resulting reactions and energetic exchanges? Aren't there more elegant ways to respond and slip past the energetic tendrils reaching at you?

Edit: reply is to #16 Well I resonate with that - even though in this very thread others speak of applying heightened intellect to understand your writing, even if you don't intellectualize as composition unfolds. I resonate with most of your writing, and find it sincere. But my dissonance radar goes off when you reply to those you don't have affinity with, and I see two polarized camps develop from what appears to be a deliberate motive to shape your audience. I can understand the desire to speak to those with ears, and I see the distraction of those who only think they hear. But in the end they create noise whether or not you ignore them, speak to them, or push them away. So why the shaping of this polarity, rather than simply letting people believe what they will. Some of your replies feel very laden with ego - perhaps to you this is a very trivial level expression barely blemishing the surface of your connection to reality, but to others like myself it is felt with emotion, which then blends with the other poignant transmissions you offer and confuses things. Once upon a time I was sitting to 4-5 hour talks with a master. From time to time others would invite friends to come and hear, and a lot of emphasis was placed on screening these friends. Well once someone's friend showed up, sat front and center, and would constantly nod and "mmhmm", "oh yeah", to what the master spoke of. After 30 minutes or so this person would break into this master's transmission and ask him questions about other masters - "do you know so and so?" He took it all in stride, and slowly the shape of the conversation changed, and he started speaking about how some people would condition themselves to dump their bliss rather than integrating it, and elaborated for some minutes on this. It was clear to us this guest was the subject of the conversation, and was quite educational to those of us paying attention. After another hour or so the guest became bored and left early, never managing to derail the discussion, but actually substantially adding to our education. I'm not saying this is how to deal with intruders - but rather that there might be ways of dealing with intruders without creating ripples and derailing the discussion. I know of others who simply ignore whatever rumors spread about them - to oppose is to maintain, after all. Those who smell the wisdom see the false reputation for what it is, and focus on what is important. So I am somewhat surprised to learn you entertain and nourish this polarity on purpose. What does it gain you?

One particular question remains to me. In the About Me thread, deci speaks of using the Tao Te Ching as a guide to wizardry. Yet I find the Tao Te Ching to advocate compassion and humility. So I'd like to ask deci what she thinks of compassion and humility. Are they important for those of us reaching for reality? Edit: Or maybe compassion and humility are not necessary at the level of those to whom deci seeks affinity with?

The Golden Elixir Press, mostly has Pregadio's translations, but includes many others, and a blog. Not sure if they have ambitions on the Daozang, but nice place to browse. http://www.goldenelixir.com/

Welcome, Sunbeam!

"Know yourself before others." This means focusing and listening inwards until you find your true self. Understand the nature of your perspective, and come to dissolve what separates your perspective from the whole. Life can be distracting. Holding to any ambition other than self development is a splitting of energies. Placing our desire sincerely on one path, we may progress far down this path. Maintaining our sincerity on knowing our true self, we surrender desire for career advancement, money, things, and people, and allow ways to open before us as we flow down the path of least resistance. Over time we empty and clarify inside, and even as we allow ourselves to sink like water to the lowest point, we simultaneously soar on the wind of the yin breath, gliding along as an eagle rather than plummeting like a rock. As we develop, it becomes easier to maintain our development amidst the chaos of the human realm, and also more tempting to establish foundations in places other than our self-development. It's like saving money - the more one saves, the easier it is to spend. But in self-development the currency is progress. Spending it is the faltering of sincerity. When one's wings are no longer spread, how quickly one may fall! Flowing with one's nature, or not, one will face similar challenges to self-development regardless of career. The more ambitious the career, the more pressure to overcome the challenges, but often at the stake of a shifting of where one places their sincerity, and where one builds their foundation. The simpler and more monotonous the career, the simpler it is to be invisible, and also simpler to stagnate and surrender self-motivation. Zhuangzi speaks on "Walking Two Roads", a concept where one's inner scope and one's outer scope are different. In life, when two energies cross paths, they attempt to reach equilibrium. Walking two roads is a method by which one intentionally flows and adapts to the outer environment in such a way as to gently slip past and remain hidden to all the myriad energies. Thus one's inner scope may be vastly differing from the paradigm in the outer world, but by following the rules of the outer world one is able to preserve the vast difference and continue cultivating to greater levels. Thus the concept of avoiding becoming valuable - both to avoid loss of freedom by others controlling how your skills are used, and to avoid recognizing your own value and succumbing to the power of what has been cultivated, so as to continue development towards immortality. Following these principles - sincerity, surrender, frugality, compassion, not daring to value oneself ahead of anything else, one may navigate anywhere safely.

0 My first thought was... oh, between 0 and 200 doesn't include 0 and 200. My second though was... oh, 0 is between all of 'em.

I pretty much already did. The full linked quote of Zhuangzi in #123 describes my approach to recognizing reality. Below I've pasted a different selection from this chapter, more pointedly answering the OP. Some Taoists tend towards wandering, and follow where the Tao leads them. Often they are led to where various powers converge - and so it seems rather presumptuous to declare all those ending up in a convergence to be followers of fascination. Don't worry, kid, I feel just fine. Zhuangzi speaks of the Butcher whose knife never dulls, precisely due to the adaptation of one's perception of pace, in effect "slowing down" so as to better see the situation, at which point all manner of openings are evident in what previously had appeared to be a closed way. This is the first thread of yours I've stepped into. Please pardon my intrusion, but I did not begin the derailing, and rather than fucking things up, I attempted to point out how posts like #11 tend to do that all on their own. I've come across several of your threads derailed in one way or another. Thus I clearly examined the basis of potential in terms of the various cycles of your derailed threads - passing through, without making arrangements, simply being as I am, and finding an opportunity to point out evidence of unnecessary creation to one who is advocating the importance of practicing the avoidance of unnecessary creation. goldisheavy invited a subtler look at the futility of projecting an absolute perspective upon what lies beyond our ability to discern. Rather than seeing his subtlety in its far-looking invitation, it was presumed to be a nearsighted statement and all manner of insult and judgment upon his state of evolution ensued. This was unnecessary creation, and went beyond the hope of correction of misunderstanding. I don't recall stating myself to be following idle fascinations mindlessly. How nice of you to project that upon me. The Sages encourage one to follow the flow of tao, and thus to be constantly placed in front of what one needs for their present development. The more one is able to progress in avoidance of controlling their situation, the greater the synchronization with the tao. This is a truth proven to me in the manner of the OP in every moment. I am not interested in taking sides, and I hope this is not mistaken for feigning innocence. But I am doing my darnedest to avoid making any statements I am not sincerely willing to discuss, as people tend to react to the things most easily reacted to, often avoiding the true essence of the discussion in favor of a surface level gotcha. Naturally in a post this long that won't be avoided. So... even as we rest in the midst of reality, the cycles of yin and yang affect their changes, and do our best to maintain equanimity. I agree with goldisheavy, and Zhuangzi - we cannot speak but in subjectivity, despite our presumed awareness of reality. Who are we to say there is not a further level in operation? When the understanding consciousness comes to rest in what it does not know, has it not reached its utmost? Again, Book Ziporyn, Zhuangzi, Ch 2. The full quote in the link is relevant, but the gist is posted below:

Oh dear, I hope I didn't imply I am anything but what I am! I guess I smelled fresh blood and wandered on over. That's kinda what happens. Power invites power.... just part of the natural flow of things. Can you recognize the reality in this?

What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu? The ruler determines how to deliver the appropriate blend of wen and wu necessary for the given situation. In archery, the ruler is the archer, who must combine inner strength and posture, and then aim for the center of the target. Without the proper amount of strength the arrow will not hit the mark. Without the proper posture the arrow will not hit the mark. In conversation one might have a point to get across. This person is the ruler, and must control the amount of wen and wu to apply based on the present audience, to affect the desired direction in the conversation. Too much force without the appropriate counterweight of culture will only be seen as force, and force will direct the conversation. Too much cultural meandering without appropriate drive to emphasize the point will result in the conversation picking up in any number of directions. But if the aim is true enough, little accomplishes much.

That's kinda my point: Conflict is a form of going along with creation. It creates ripples by inviting reaction - hard to avoid when making public statements unless they are phrased carefully. The way affecting change in a hidden way avoids creation. I see many here able to make bold statements that invite little if any reaction. Also - thanks for the note about questions! Yep, despite not having a question mark and being rhetorical, it was still inviting separation. I used to have lots of questions. Now I find I already have the answers within, so the asking is a form of escapism.

If one is truly achieved, why would they be stuck in one way of delivery, when they can easily see the cracks between the chinks and adjust their position to affect a well placed blow from an unexpected angle that is certain to be efficacious and avoid the misery of all this annoying bemoaning of conflict and friction. Communication without adaptation grows lazy and barnacles begin to grow.