Daeluin

Ack! You caught me! Around when I started posting here a couple months back, I also started a habit of purchasing multiple chocolate milkshakes. Mostly vegan diet, but not strict.... (un)fortunately there are lots of fantastic vegan ice creams where I live, and this has been a long habit of mine. I subsisted primarily on Ben & Jerry's throughout my college days. What a delicious way to eat up the pre-celestial qi of youth! I find that after a lot of good consistent cultivation that actually gets me somewhere, esp with development of shen.... if I start consuming more sugar the shen begins to loosen and expand around me... if I keep consuming sugar it becomes looser still, until it basically gets used to being loose and stays in a fairly scattered state. Makes it much more difficult to ground my shen and clear my mind. I was raised mostly sugar free until I was 6 or so and it became a polarity to try to enforce this in the public school system. I recall a definite change in my overall awareness of self after sugar became part of my diet. Before hand I had been full of energy, but also patient, observant, self-restrained and reflective. After wards I couldn't contain my energy and became much more impulsive. Alas. Also - mosquitoes seem more attracted to people who consume more sugar.

16 - Hu Xuezhi, Revealing the Tao Te Ching: In the introduction: Even though the Tao Te Ching appears to predate the use of the terms Xing and Ming in alchemy, it is interesting that this translation uses the concepts of Primeval Qi and Congenital Nature as Ming and Xing. And thus the same meaning of using non-doing in relation to cultivating the Xing as from Cultivating the Tao may be found in 16. Without acting blindly, yet tolerating all, being impartial and all-accommodating, we cultivate our Xing by using WuWei to follow the principles of Heavenly operation -- even in the midst of myriad things in constant motion. And thus in equaling Heaven we are able to fully cultivate our Xing back to completeness and transcend beyond Heaven to reach the Tao.

Cultivating the Tao There's a bit more here, mostly regarding xing and ming. But doing and non-doing refer to methods of cultivating xing and ming: In this context, the wu wei is the turning of the light around so that it does not burn up or become contaminated, even as in turning it around it merges ever more deeply with the ming, and to the root of heaven and earth. The ming has been completed by doing, and the xing protects it by turning around and integrating with it so it is not lost, even as in turning around the xing completes itself. Thus: When one reaches the highest step there is a different wondrous operation, but it does not pertain to either "doing" or "non-doing." Doing and non-doing are a vehicle. But also, my working understanding is that wu-wei needs to be constant and consistent, and thus must be explored through all of life's ups and downs, not simply during isolated meditation sessions. The non-doing refers to the avoidance of making use of the power which is being nourished, so that one does not part from the root and is able to be cultivated to completion, but flows harmoniously with all one encounters. Thus it helps to have cultivated an inner momentum throughout the seasons of harmony and flowing with a natural rhythm. If you get in the way of others and create much dissonance, it may be difficult to maintain the state of wu-wei as life continues to present you with the type of challenge you have invited. In any case, one is learning to maintain the state of wholeness under many different types of pressure, as one strengthens and fortifies the root, to seal it and store it. And this is all very related to the Mysterious Pass/Female/Barrier and the Golden elixir: The Spirit of the Valley never dies: it is called Mysterious-Female. The gate of the Mysterious-Female is called root of Heaven and Earth.

I would like to hear more about the nine teachings of Daoism Flowing Hands mentions.

I know you've seen this, but for others, here is a great resource on the Jian: specifics, historically, and for training purposes. There are many on ebay, and f you watch the changing listings over time patterns emerge, and one can get a sense of value, etc. Some may be adequate for training, but unlikely to have highly refined balance points, might be heavy, hard to determine how stiff/flexible, etc. I'm also curious to hear from others' experience with Jians.

Thank you dawei, very illuminating. I find it interesting that in that thread the Fu Fa Shen is described as a Shen Xian, but in this thread the Fu Fa Shen is described as a Tian Xian. It seems likely a Shen Xian could help one develop spiritually to a high level, but as any Shen Xian has likely lost their "corpse" and are unable to now become a Tian Xian, following principle they would have trouble guiding the way to becoming a Tian Xian. What Flowing Hands says about the golden light being an expression of spiritual development, but needing to be re-integrated makes much sense. And Liu Yiming also terms the Yuan San Bao as yin energies. To transcend earth we must refine and replenish our ming, to transcend heaven we must refine and replenish our xing and awaken our dormant spiritual capacity - but to venture beyond heaven and earth we must unite them into one and go to the root before they have come into being. This is also in line with the teachings of "Excess of the Great", the concept of turning the light around, and the concept of the Valley Spirit: The Spirit of the Valley never dies: it is called Mysterious-Female. The gate of the Mysterious-Female is called root of Heaven and Earth. Harmonious Emptiness, this also seems very related to the purpose of non-doing, which I feel might be expressed as allowing your cultivated spiritual development to be turned around and to face itself down to the deepest level. Thus xing is cultivated while ming is not lost. And one may do this any way one likes, but the key is to maintain this state consistently as it goes deeper and is tempered by the challenges of life around us. If we only do this in emptiness we are not learning to maintain this state in the real world. If we only do it part of the time how does it become a permanent facet of our cultivated selves? At least this is my working understanding.

It's still a question about a method, and you didn't seem to feel safe sharing the instruction on the method, so it's hard, at least for me, to really understand your question. But it sounds like a question about non-doing, which is the cultivation of xing once the ming is complete. Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio: I feel I've experienced some of what this refers to, but not enough to feel comfortable commenting. If some others are fully comfortable in their experience of these teachings, I too would be welcoming of their compassionate guidance.

Oh, perhaps I heard what you didn't intend to say. In any case, it seems the results are the point of the methods, and the methods themselves are based on principles, and meant to be adjusted according to the circumstances.

Forgiveness does imply a prior judgment, something to forgive. Which is why I like thinking of it as trust. Simply radiating trust in all directions, to all things. Trusting them to be whatever they need to be in this moment, be that "good" or "bad". Radiating it out and not attaching to it, letting it go, letting it simply be.

I resonate with what you describe, and I would like to read more - can you (or someone) please point me to the correct thread or post?

I might've agreed with this once. As it is, dedicating myself to tai chi practice and getting out of my head, allowed my energy to change in tremendous ways. With my Sifu guiding my energy subtly, and dropping a hint to point the way here and there, I followed the way I was led without worrying about where I was going. I'm pretty sure I brushed against the Jin Dan - I didn't fully enter the mysterious pass, and at the time I had no idea what was happening, but also for this reason I was able to simply trust and follow the guidance. My internal awareness of myself was completely brimming with golden light, all throughout, and when I tried to feel a particular center of myself, there was no center... any part was the center, it was simply all one. Anywhere I focused was fused in oneness, indistinguishable from any other part. As I was guided to then center myself in the universe, I began to lose this, as my mind started taking over and wondering how I would actually do that. (We do a blend of standing, sitting, and moving exercises, and this happened while sitting.) That was a couple years ago now, and I attained that after only a year of practice. Since then other "results" have manifested, all in line with the concepts of Neidan. After one beautiful experience in effortless, full body pore breathing with embryo breathing, I heard my Sifu say and thus there is heaven on earth. Eventually I made the connection to the merging of ☰ and ☷, and after some investigation of principle realized this is likely what I had experienced. Recently I've been studying Neidan from the classics in depth, so that I may understand better what I am doing. It is not my Sifu's job to make sure I understand this - if I want to take what he has shown me further, I better be able to do so on my own, without hand holding. This is unspoken between us, and this is what I want for my training. It took a while to make a connection to the Jin Dan, and deci belle's posts here seem in alignment with what I experienced. It also helped to uncover the connection between the Jin Dan and the Mysterious Pass. The past couple years, in addition to studying, I've been working on other layers, building a foundation from which I may train without interruption, and studying the nature of change and momentum. In any case, I am sure any others who are of a purist path will undoubtedly say this is not Neidan, or not true Neidan, and that is completely fine. I'm not trying to prove anything or seek external validation. My path is my own, as are my experiences and understandings. Try to cut away at them if you will, but what is the point? My point is that results are possible without understanding, but from simply doing, if one does correctly. Perhaps what I consider results don't align with what you consider results. And that is fine. My intent with this conversation is to help dissolve stagnation based on fixed perspectives of understanding and thereby help us all support each other in our common goals. Even though we may define terms differently, we all seem to be on the same path. Perhaps it helps to have an understanding, but there are many types and ways of understanding, and many may lead to the same exact effects using completely different concepts. In any case, once one is getting results, one had best empty their mind of thoughts and let it be one with the process.

If a Master decides to teach "Internal Alchemy", are there limitations on the method, so long as the result is achieved? If the principles of "Internal Alchemy" are applied, to they need to be applied by use of words and understanding, or is that simply part of the method, but not the result? I hear LaoZiDao saying the result is what is most important, not the method. ChiDragon: What you expect me to do is very different from what I actually do.

When we use our awareness to discriminate, we use our discrimination to decide how to dispense our energy (love). When we allow our awareness to radiate outward with complete trust, rather than discrimination, it turns into a type of vision, because we aren't controlling the edges of it, but listening to them as they flow in all directions. When we think of this in terms of a vision, the same is true of the vision in our eyes, which we train to a certain bias instead of seeing all. A taoist looks at nothing but sees all.

Haha, surely it is as you say! I was merely thinking that if some grain were poured in there it would definitely be ground up!

If you say so!

Oh I'm not saying things should be hidden intentionally. I'm just learning that even when the truth is in the open, it is often still hidden in other ways. The more one attempts to force others to value the truth artificially, the more layers of false interpretation and confusion get built up around it. Even when sitting uncontested in plain site, poignancy is often overlooked unless someone knows what they're looking at. There are different approaches to balance. The Wen and Wu concept seems similar to the creation and controlling cycles of the wuxing. But I've come to understand that the control cycle (which I like to think of as refinement, in neidan), is best practiced without forceful control, but through leading control. We can point out why something is out of balance and work with it on returning to balance, but ultimately the change can only truly be affected by a decision from within. Often controlling people with force backfires, as they may harbor internal resentment even when they go along with the flow just to stop the argument. In fact I'd say forceful control rarely changes things beyond the surface. I think this is true in neidan as well. One can force things, but ultimately relaxation is a major element to getting deeper. Certainly pressure is often necessary when things are out of balance, but in the case of this thread, it has not seemed effective to tell effilang that he is in the absolute "wrong" in terms of the unification of the hou tian san bao. However, we have expressed a different perspective and supportive reasoning and quotes as to why the pre-celestial (xian tian) san bao (three treasures - jing/qi/shen) cannot be cultivated by using the post-celestial (hou tian) san bao. This is clear to any who read this thread, and they will make their own conclusions. You may believe (I don't know if you do or not, but you may) that effilang is trying to confuse the terminology on purpose for gain of some kind. However, I doubt that is the case. effilang seems to fully believe what he is sharing, and likely has a functional understanding that works for him and his school, around this understanding. Perhaps this fundamentally different interpretation of what we think of as traditional neidan operation is being effectively applied in the application of this school's art. It is beyond our capacity to know, unless we join this school. Thus it is clear to all by now that there is a difference, and it is a subtle one. And it is highly unlikely that anything will change, as both sides are content in what works for them. There will always be many ways to the Tao - though the paths are different, the final result is the same. Many of these paths will have understandings incomprehensible to each other. The top of the mountain can be reached from more than one direction, though it may seem baffling to some. Perhaps some ways only lead part way up. But for some lifetimes part way is the goal. We'll all get where we need to in the end. Or we won't. Yeah, things are radically changing. Many people are conditioned so much it is unlikely they will turn around. On the other hand, the energies themselves are radically changing, and who knows what will come in the next decade or so. The masses may not have much skill at reading between the lines, but they sure can follow trends. In any case it isn't up to us to decide what they should be doing with their lives. We can be sincere in how we live and what we believe, and offer our truths to those who want to listen. But what point in offering truth to those without ears? Sounds exhausting, not to mention futile. Much of this is all in the hou tian mind anyway. If those who understand Neidan use it to achieve themselves, they can affect much more effective healing of the masses than with words. No, I don't teach Neidan. Much too soon for that. My teacher teaches Neidan, and has studied the Neidan terminology extensively. But he does not teach us the terminology of neidan. When we ask about details, we are likely to be told when the whole is divided, parts need names. Rather, we are taught internal martial arts. We are taught a few basic principles, like focusing on the lower dan tien. But after that we stay out of our heads and do the work. When our energy behaves a certain way we will receive a word or half a sentence in guidance, and that is all we need. In this way I found myself brushing up against the mysterious pass. It was described to me as "centering yourself in yourself", followed by "centering yourself in the universe". Concepts much more effective at describing the principle than those found in Neidan terminology, especially when one is feeling them. Perhaps not so effective if one merely reads about them. Or maybe it wasn't the mysterious pass - but fortunately that is for me to decide.

At first I questioned effilang about the terms, and when it became apparent he views them differently than I do - and doesn't seem interested in changing this - I was happy to read between the lines. I have enough clarity on this subject that I can gain from his posts, which do contain much value, without being confused. Also, should I chose to debate about something, I will invite the debate, not demand a battle of right versus wrong. opendao, I'll give you the same advice I gave effilang: get off your pedestal, and you won't have to do all this war waging. The truth is the truth, and needs no spokesman. If people don't want to hear something, applying force is hardly going to help. Those who seek the truth develop skill at reading between the lines, and will be able to sort the true from the false on their own, without someone forcing "correction" upon the other ways. The truth is hidden right now for reasons.

That last one looks like a great method to grind some grain!

Someone who sees things from a scientific perspective lives in a black an white world. They will want you to prove this thing you call Chi. There are plenty of ways to do so, but all require them to leave their black and white world behind. The Chi exists between black and white, between substance and nothingness, between yin and yang, between extremes. The Tao is found by reading between the lines. This is a fundamental facet of Taoist principle. If there is polarity, Tao exists in the middle between both sides. If there are details, the Tao is found in the essence the details make up. The letter of the law is the detail, the principle is the essence. The loops and blind spots are where the Tao is found. Do you live in a black and white world, ChiDragon, and is that where you search for the Tao?

Yeah, try telling that to people who only want to believe it isn't true and doesn't exist.

I don't accept anything. I work hard at understanding it. I also let everything go completely and work on transcending, and feeling different things. The energy of every day is different, and leads to completely different cultivation. In this way I experience change without expectation. Then I go back and study some more, and different things start emerging that make sense. My experience has taken me far enough to understand why the golden elixir is called the golden elixir. Most of all, my experience has taught me that attachments prevent change. To work towards the next level one must work without attachment, and be open to feeling what is trying to come. Otherwise one only progresses at the level one is attached to.

What are "positive means"? A label doesn't convey a method, so your explanation is empty. Theories are proven by how well they hold up in the real world. Whether by trial and error, seeing examples in the real world, etc, when it exists in reality and not simply in the mind, a theory can hold weight. The trouble with Qi Gong and Inner Alchemy is that it works a little backwards. Someone can describe Qi, but the rest of the world denies it because they do not feel it in their experience or know how to see it in the real world. The concept of Qi is subtle and elusive to the uninitiated. This is also True of Xin and Xing - the Masters and experienced ones agree - they are not in conflict that there is a difference between Xin and Xing. And yet if you have not reached the level of understanding of a Master, it is all too easy for you to deny the words of the Masters. To proceed deeper into the Tao one must merge the 5 phases into oneness, which requires unsticking ourselves from fixed perceptions and allowing ourselves to change. Change is not a threat when we navigate it from the center. ChiDragon, I'd wager your Chinese Astrology is a Metal Day Stem, and that you have a hefty bit of Wood in the mix. It is very easy for you to attach to knowledge, and you don't want to let it go. And you feel under pressure to make sure others know about this knowledge. That's all fine, but if you are going to really get deeper into your cultivation work, like you say, you'll need to be able to use your understanding of your nature to transform yourself. To overcome your weaknesses and know how to predict your blind spots. One blind spot of yours, ChiDragon, is to respond to the part of a post that most agrees with you or is easiest to use to support your argument. I give you plenty to choose from, in the details. But the essence is what matters, not the details. The essence is evolution through change - shedding a skin - dying to be reborn. Are you brave enough?

I'm sorry ChiDragon, I don't think my english was clear. Liu Yiming presents a chapter on describing True and False Xin. After that he presents another chapter describing True and false Xing. He clearly describes them as having completely separate functions. This is all very subtle, and personally I am still only beginning to feel the difference. But I have felt the difference enough for it to allow me to be guided by the Masters and other cultivated people who make effort at clarifying this difference. It is because I investigate principle with an allowance for my structure of knowledge to change that I may progress and evolve. On the other hand you seem very adamant about what you say being the only truth, but have so far been evasive when asked to explain why. It honestly confuses me, but I'm not interested and don't really care. In the end your attachments only hold you back. I wonder why you seem to have trouble adapting. Hmmm.... when I rearrange furniture in a room, I think... I bet the table on that side, the couch here and the lamp there will be great! And then I move it around, and actually feel what it's like to experience life in these new settings. Sometimes I don't like it, and I go back to the way I liked it. Sometimes I don't like it at first and it grows on me. Sometimes it's great but not in the way I thought it would be. The lesson I've learned from this is that even though I can develop quite a bit of skill at predicting the best positions for my furniture, to my preferences, only letting myself change and directly experience the new positions really shows me whether or not my mind was right. And, often I am wrong - and often it is nice to be wrong, when some position of furniture that I didn't think was any good turns out to be fantastic in real life. Part of cultivating the "mind" is acknowledging our minds have blind spots, and being OK with changing things around from time to time. Who knows what we'll find.

I hear you, and I believe this is sincere. Why worry about external validation? What do you have to prove? What's wrong if others think it's bullshit? The feel I get from your words is that there is something to prove. I don't believe you have anything to prove, and yet it is coming across in they way you speak, and the way you build your school up. Remember, what is built up must be defended, and will draw contention. Which has been happening. The very nature of the title of the thread - this vs that, is posed to draw contention. So what is it that your enthusiasm is trying to prove? Why can't it be sincere and enthusiastic with humility, rather than the arrogance of "Xian Tian" is better than "Hou Tian"? This is subtle - your defense of contention is very careful and if not humble, then gracious and accommodating, and you are very cordial and respectful. Unconditional trust that they will find their own path, against all odds, without needing a higher power. You are certainly allowing this, but your invitation is posed as though they have an opportunity to see why your way is better, and that it is most definitely better if they will only give it a try. Have you said this might not be a good path for some people, or encouraged them to search deep in their hearts for their true path? When confronted you encouraged people to doubt you and when ready come to test your truth by initiation. You aren't trying to empower people, you're trying to entice them into a special club. I don't think this is what you intend to be doing, but this is what I hear in your invitations. Again, you present your tradition on a pedestal and invite others to test it. Let me tell you, we are all unique, and it is very important for us to search inside for our paths. Inviting a Tian Xian Immortal to guide us is not a trivial matter and will have a incredible effect on one's life path. This should be considered seriously and not presented so cheaply. Not cheap, not exalted, it should be respected and presented clearly as it is. Why not present your school with the truths, with the enthusiasm, but without the "us vs them" attitude, and without the pedestal? Why not encourage searching inside to feel if this path is right for them. Your school has some very important gifts to offer, and when people search inside themselves they will realize this. But they way you present this energetically, you are triggering reactions in people who are sensitive enough to feel the way you exalt this tradition, which will make things more difficult to discern. Chapter 3 of Tao Te Ching speaks to this. But really, what I sense from you is straight from the I Ching: You proceed breezily but your enthusiasm is spilling over the edges a bit. You feel harmonious and easy going to me, but you also seem to be clinging to something here. You adapt, but not fully. You have cultivated greatness, I can feel that - but you seem to have trouble avoiding excess. Those who cultivate the tao flow like water and place themselves beneath others, never daring to be ahead of anything else, precisely because to not do so is to acknowledge their own power and cause it to overflow in excess. By not acknowledging our own greatness, we have no trouble being small and no trouble continuing to be filled without filling up. Thus those who cultivate the Tao are so humble they effect change upon the world without being acknowledged for causing it. You seem to be on a great path, and I admire this. I am thankful for the knowledge you have shared here, I've found it helpful, and appreciate the time you have taken to carefully write things out. So in return I just wish to share the above with you, from what I sense on a subtle level. If you see any truth in this, if it resonates with you, maybe it can help you go deeper. Otherwise it is likely just my ego being sensitive and reacting to things, so please disregard. Either way, blessings and care on your journey.