Daeluin

Uh... posted a link describing the "Something Awful" forums, but had to remove it as it wasn't... safe.

Why do you suppose Liu Yiming has separate chapters explaining True and False Xin and Xing if they both mean the same thing?

The second last chapter of Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao speaks on the importance of Internal and External Companions: It is my interpretation that Liu Yiming refers to our ability to connect to (through attraction or awareness of) higher level Spirit Guardians, Ancestors, Immortals, and forces of Nature. These are our guides, and they naturally come to us as we make effort at cultivating ourselves, as like attracts like. There is a wonderful example of how this process naturally unfolds here. Thanks Horus, I hope you don't mind the uninvited reference. So in requesting a Fu Fa Shen in the tradition of Xiao Yao Pai, I think one works at directly gaining access to one of the highest level "Internal Companions" one might find, and thereby fast-laning it to the top. Perhaps this is the destiny of some, and it is great for a tradition like this to be present. However, I don't think it is about the destination, but about the journey, making companions, making gradual progress along the way and using our virtue to contribute to the world and universe as we progress. These ideas of starting from the top down in regards to cultivation seem viable, but in this very thread we see top-heavy effects of this style of cultivation. There is a sense of zeal, ambition, and "our way is best" conveyed in the descriptions in this thread. I do not believe this is entirely intentional, rather this is an outcome of cultivating from the top down method. Perhaps this is merely intentional, as a marketing technique to spread the word and draw others to the school. But even then this seems very mis-guided. Not everyone is karmically prepared to make such a journey, especially in the fast-lane. Perhaps times are changing, and through a great awakening many will need the services of this Tradition and be able to make proper use of them. If this is not the case, it is also possible that many might become drawn to the school who cannot properly benefit from such a powerful guide, and the gift instead becomes a burden. Generally we cannot know these things, and it is best to allow change to unfold naturally, without using techniques to tempt others towards what one believes to be the best way. Liu Yiming doesn't say directly to start with the Jing first, in this book. But he does emphasize laying a foundation, and gradual progress. As does the Tao Te Ching, especially in regards to not building things up, for then they can be brought down. Thus one is encouraged to behave like water, and with humility always flowing to and filling the low places, one is encouraged to avoid clinging to what is right, but to concede first, and avoid contention, and to be like the valley spirit.

ChiDragon is remarkably resilient in his adamant attachment to a fixed understanding. Even so, I see him changing, and I am happy to see this, for it shows great effort and bravery on his part. Walker, the principles I've learned from the Tao teach me that direct contention is not the way, but only creates polarity and invites opposition. Surely there are ways to clarify confusion without resorting to inviting an oppositional flame war.

3 Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons, so that the people shall not strive for fame and credit; Refrain from artificially valuing rare goods, so that the people shall not steal; Refrain from presenting things that arouse desires, so that people's hearts shall not be disturbed. Therefore, Sages manage things as follows: Cleansing people's hearts of the abundance of desires, Replenishing the Lower Dantien with Qi, Making people's hearts become peaceful and tolerant, thus, strengthening their physical constitution naturally. Always keeping people innocent of much contriving and desires, thus the guileful person shall be afraid of acting beyond the normal standards. By handling affairs with the principle of following Tao's Natural Way, everything can be cone in a perfect manner. Tao Te Ching, tl Hu Xuezhi

Mind = Xin (心) Body = Shen (身) In Cultivating the Tao, Liu Yiming has a chapter on Zhenjia shenxin - True and False Body and Mind, which is followed by the chapter on Zhenjia xingming - Trua and False Nature and Existence. Nature and Existence is how Pregadio translates them, for how could he translate them as Body and Mind, which were just addressed in the previous chapter?

A victim mindset is just a negative label on the practice of expecting validation. It happens to all of us. When we don't get validated we feel wounded and are very aware of that the wounding felt like. We just have trouble connecting that wounding to our attachment to something that is already outside of ourselves. Labeling someone a victim doesn't help them to change, they just feel even more wounded. The best we can do is to recognize that only WE can validate OURSELVES. It's nice when others support us, but the better we can stand up on our two feet and feel empowered from within, the better we can practice objective communication, without getting caught up in subjective reactivity. And then we can become better aware of the edges our own communications have, and when it's OUR sharp edges that are causing others to react.

Online forums are pretty great (renowned) for testing how reactive people will let themselves be, given they have time to actually consider what they say before they post it. Buttercup, your first thread here showed your sensitivity, and I offered a warning about the many and often oppositional perspectives you'll find here without letting them get to you. Remember, practicing taoism is about dissolving polarity with harmony, and is often most difficult to practice when someone is actively engaging your from an oppositional perspective. In these cases you have an opportunity to develop your character by responding to them in such a way as to dissolve whatever they reacted to, and lead the conversation to greater harmony. Pointing fingers has the opposite effect - it makes others even more reactive and defensive and closed off. Often we want external validation from others, and so our pride is wounded when someone who sees the world from a different perspective responds to us with insensitivity, without care. Our offering put a piece of ourselves out there, and this person just stepped all over it! But the trick is to learn that what we put out there is no longer our own, even though it originated from us, it is now changing on its own, and we have no control over that. If we see it like this, then there is nothing to be wounded when others do not validate it, because we place no desire on their validation and cannot be hurt by their insults. In any case, these forums offer a place to refine one's sharp edges and temper one's sensitivities through practice. The better those of us from cultures the world over are able to hold civil conversations, and even maintain civility when it is threatened, the better the world will become.

Liu Yiming calls the Xian Tian / Yuan Jing/Qi/Shen a Yin expression, which seems to agree with your description of Yin Shen. He also calls the Hou Tian Jing/Qi/Shen a Yang expression (which makes sense). But other than that, your description of "Yang Shen" matches his description of the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixir, and the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. It is the root of the Hou Tian San Bao, the ruler of the Xian Tian San Bao, and something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven. As for XYP, I'm happy it works for you, and I'm happy I've found the path that works for me as well.

Yep. Cultivation of spontaneity (different from impulsivity), is cultivation of Xian Tian Xing. Storing knowledge is cultivation of Hou Tian Xing. The knowledge required by the complex world we live in causes disease, in my opinion. Wander the knowledge based path if you will, but I find it to be largely horizontal in development. To increase your vibration and evolve vertically you need to recognize that thoughts are crystallizations of Hou Tian Shen. They block the Xian Tian Shen from flowing freely, and as they are dissolved and emptied out, room is given for the Xian Tian Shen to flow, take root and develop greater spiritual awareness and whole body connectivity in your Tai Ji practice. But part of resolving these blockages requires dissolving the ego, which entraps the mind and heart. The fixed emotional and mental patterns serve as a foundation of security for the ego, but this foundation is literally the crystallization of the Hou Tian Shen which is blocking the proper cultivation and merging of the Xing and MIng. When the ego holds on to its crystallized form, the flow of the senses meridians, qi, jing are all affected, just like a Beaver Dam restricting the flow of a river. Thanks for this thread. It has been fun debating with you. We have fundamentally differing views on what DCXM is about, but that's OK.

Also it's not about holding the breath, IMO. It's about following/guiding the energy work to a place where things slow down and you naturally don't need to breathe as fast or as much. Requires thoughts not being in the way of energy moving through the mind.

Once the Ming has been replenished and the Te is intact, the breathing can slow the point of not exchanging much inside and outside. This lets people meditate while sitting at the bottom of lakes and such. This is the transition from doing to non-doing, and ultimately neither is the final goal.

It's about being what you are without looking in the mirror. It's about being real without ego. Laozi and Zhuangzi discuss this. It's not about being nothing, but about merging with everything and transcending it.

Many different ways to meditate! What I meant to convey is that I find it interesting to sit in stillness after doing moving energy work. Even sitting after holding a standing meditation posture will reveal things. It's fun to play with meditating after holding different postures. But largely I find when I get my energy flowing it isn't stagnant when I meditate and tends to also be more refined... depends on what I'm doing.

Rather than pretending to be less, one refuses to acknowledge being any particular label of being in comparison to others. And thus dares not put ones self above anything else, by never looking at what one has, always trying to be better while never acknowledging development as getting them somewhere. In this way the tao is cultivated and cannot be stripped away - for what is there to strip away.

I find it helpful to mediate after I train, after I've got stuck things moving and more balanced. Then it's just a matter of practice. Over time experiencing what the qi feels like when the breath is hard and heavy, one can distinguish the difference between what the qi feels like when the breath is light and soft. Play with it and you'll learn by doing, not by thinking.

Yikes. Some of y'all cling to righteousness so strongly you are also doomed to fail. Lighten up a little and let the tao lead you or you'll end up too heavy to get anywhere. Righteousness should be based on social harmony, and thus just without bias. This is a way of balancing. As for attaining Tao, I don't think it's about trying to force anything, but leading a life of harmony with your environment and resolving karma. Over time you'll reach a lifetime when you are meant to move on. Those who force it are probably just going against the Tao. This is what resonates with me. It is neither right nor wrong.

You need to follow timing before you got any "emptiness". Emptiness is further ("refining Shen into the Void"). If by emptiness you mean something different, then please explain. From the phrase above it looks like you think that Shen=Emptiness. I agree. Not sure where the miscommunication happened, I don't see those implications from the quote, but that's OK. Hmm, what is houhou? As for the rest, sounds interesting, but I believe people in society should be educated to flow with tao regardless of their level, and I wouldn't be surprised if when this is cultivated at higher levels it leads truly. But then I'm anything but an ordinary person. OH... I mean I'm completely ordinary.

And this is more or less the Taoist view on karma. And Immortality is the path towards not causing harm, but living in a way to cultivate absolute harmony. Anything we do creates ripples off into the universe. Some last longer than others. But whether good or bad, whether mere thoughts or destructive violence, what we project out there tends to ripple back to us as a reflection. We cultivate harmony by dissolving polarity. Often creating harmony is considered valuable by others so we find ways to do it invisibly, taking no credit. By simply flowing with life, the situation we find ourselves facing are reflections of past karma, and opportunities to harmonize their polarity. As far as food goes.... I see all food as life, and all life as sacred. Personally I agree with much that Spotless wrote. The cleaner my diet, the cleaner my energy, and at that point I tend to not feel very good when I eat heavier foods. When I was 15 I made the deliberate choice to become vegetarian, and I made it on my own without any outside pressure. It felt like the right way for me. A couple years ago I did explore eating meat, as some things I'd never even tried. My first bite of steak (cooked by a chef friend of mine) was fantastic. But heavy. Eating meat didn't really do it for me. The vegetarian diet does require some extra effort with grounding/rooting, for me, but I don't mind. I've done some simple 7 day fasts. Diluted juices and teas. The first 3 days were always rough... but after that I didn't feel like stopping. I got plenty of sugars from the juices, and my body felt incredible. That was all before I started energy cultivation. I suspect, given my long term generally "light foods" diet, subsisting on little do no food wouldn't be very difficult, assuming I maintained my cultivation work. They say when the jing is full, there is no desire, when the qi is full there is no need for food and when the shen is full there's no need for sleep. But yeah... just in general our "modern" society wages wars of perversion upon the environment. All sorts of traumatized energy is tied into that, and much of it is hidden from our brainwashed lifestyles. We're brainwashed by eating what we're told is good in advertising (talk about cultivating truth and sincerity, sheesh), and we're brainwashed by the chaos pulling us in every direction but our own hearts. We can't even see spirits. It is what it is. There's a theory out there that our species is currently at the end of the 3rd chakra phase of evolution. Seems to resonate with truth.... so let's learn our lessons about power struggles with each other and with nature, and use those lessons to heal and move on to the next.

Sure, once Superior Te is lost, one must practice Doing to regain it. But that doesn't mean one rigidly controls one's life. Listening to the flow of life and merging with it is a skill one can develop now. Synchronicities manifest when we follow the flow of the tao. Yes, that's what I said. We reverse to cultivate Xian Tian and unify it into emptiness. After that we hold onto the emptiness and avoid letting it follow the process of separation again. The path of reversal includes becoming aware of our past lives so fully that they appear to us as myriad shells of emptiness, which we then merge back into oneness. Leakage is the use of Te by control. We avoid leaking by not using it. By cultivating our momentum by following right timings and cycles, we are able to flow through all things without having them create expression within our emptiness. The teachings greatly emphasize awareness of cycles and timings, and yet most seem oblivious of cycles as obvious as the waxing and waning of the moon and sun. Timing is everything, and is directly related to flowing. Cultivating the Tao: So, to repair leaks one cultivates the Ming by "doing," and then cultivates the Xing by "non-doing." Cultivating the Tao:

Zhuangzi advises us to follow what is right in front of us, rather than to play games judging things as right or wrong. I think it is good to break through doubt, but ultimately one should avoid getting weighed down by the Metal phase.

Perhaps not at first. But they are ever present and cultivated through not using them up. Simply fasting is all that is needed. I do not agree that first Hou Tian Qi, Jing and Shen must be combined. The Hou Tian direction is one of separation. To work with the sexual fluid is dangerous, and I don't see how uniting it with the breath and thoughts will create anything but chaos. To be combined, the San Bao must not be expressed as Hou Tian, but must be allowed to fill up in their Xian Tian states, or Yuan States, where one may work on combining them into what Liu Yiming terms the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixer in the Mysterious Barrier. In any case, I advise you to not distinguish your school as following a "Xian Tian" approach while all other schools follow a "Hou Tian" approach. The "Hou Tian" approach may be found in martial application, but in general all the classical texts on Neidan speak in terms of cultivating Xian Tian energy. Liu Yiming doesn't specify which direction one is to follow, at least not from what I remember in this book so far. My teacher teaches without knowledge, and I found myself brushing against the Mysterious Pass one day without realizing where I had been led. Of course I only realized this after much study and examination of where had been guided, but all of this studying only took me away from the practice of emptiness. Liu Yiming definitely advises one to know the direction one is going fully, and then to go onward without hesitation. That said, how is it possible for one to go beyond what has been written about? Surely we all reach a point where we must trust our own intuition to lead us true. This is what I've learned about the cultivation of Xing - it is greatly important that we hone our intuition so that we may follow the guidance of Heavenly Knowledge, without our Human Knowledge stuck in our minds getting in the way. From what I understand, one is able to trust the guidance of the Fu Fa Shen to provide the knowledge and guide the way. Thus one may do the practice, without the knowledge getting in the way. It still seems to me like one is missing the cultivation of proper Xing by trusting to the guidance of a single outside force. Part of merging with the Tao is following where it leads and learning to surrender to the Tao as a whole - not a single entity. But hey we all have our destinies. Personally I'd be suspicious of ulterior motives, but I'm naturally cautious like that. opendao, one of the basic instructions I receive from the ancient texts is to cultivate flowing with life. One becomes like water and does not build things up artificially, but flows where the tao leads with humility. In this way cultivates in a way that one cannot be stolen from, and in a way that no one can contend with. In this way one merges with the tao, not using Te but saving Te even as one's way unfolds mysteriously. In this way one harmonizes with all. This is very easy to cultivate, it just takes time, and willingness to not desire. After a short time I find my way quite naturally unfolding and leading me deeper into the tao. Reversing is simply about undoing Hou Tian. Once we've gone back through our past, gathered and unified our old past, our objective is to maintain our emptiness as we flow through the rest of life which is proceeding forward. We do this simply by merging our Te with Tao and getting out of the way of the operation. By maintaining our connection to the unfolding Tao around us, we preserve our Superior Te and do not need Inferior Te. I don't believe it is about simply getting beyond the reach of Fate. I believe that by following the Tao in this way we may allow our unique shape to wield powerful mechanisms of harmony through which we may heal the world of past karma we imprinted upon it, never mind that we've dissolved the internal karma. In any case there are many ways to reach the tao. I believe it is possible to let the tao guide one there with know knowledge, if one's karma is so aligned. If one follows a framework, it is important to understand the framework of that school. But even though there is only one Tao, there are many frameworks that lead to the Tao. Some methods may contradict other methods, and that's Okay. Anyway... my main question in regards to Xiao Yao Pai is how it overcomes the lack of grounding many in our society have. Seems a lot of extra work would be needed in order to get all that Shen grounded into the body, given how many hold their Shen outside their body already.

We do one form with ball weights, but the emphasis is on holding them with the mind, not the physical. Great for increasing chi pressure. Same with weapons... holding one end of a staff while doing circle walking is great. So... this is mind strength training. Pushing a wall is great for this too.

The idea in taoism is to dissolve polarity via creating harmony, melting away patterns and returning to a state of oneness. The more one becomes whole, the more one becomes self-sufficient, even as one becomes more one with all. This is often referred to as a process of "reversal", given that most practices of life create more polarity and separation. Either way, when you have moving parts in a system, there must be some framework of balance. When things get out of balance they dominate and life suffers. Suffering is really just experiencing the pressure of balancing. So... as many of us go through our lives we're learning to find balance based on how life responds to us. Some of us have wax in our ears and ignore these messages, and thus end up cultivating patterns where we force our way into the positions we want, without the proper give and take and respect for balance. Well that's fine, but when we die we take this pattern with us. On the spiritual level, my understanding is we don't have as much say over where we go, but we tend to follow the law of "like attracts like". The earth, moon and sun are all spinning around in various cycles, and most of us are rather limited in how far we can go beyond these gravitational vortexes. In any case, depending on the mix of yin and yang and the patterns there in, we are drawn to end up in various situations. All this is just my best guess based on what I've read and what follows principle. Beyond that, I speculate there are some who are drawn to end up with family groupings, but perhaps that mostly applies to whose who cultivate a great sense of familial piety in life. I suspect there are those who travel to areas of spiritual gathering more in our atmosphere or solar system, and those are remain on earth as ghosts and spirits based on the attachments they cultivated. These attachments might be, on the lower level, fixations on ways of living, on people, unresolved issues of a deep nature, or on a higher level, attachments to fulfilling a specific purpose in a spiritual form, or perhaps being directed to guide others based on a higher power, etc. In the end I believe it all just follows the natural principles of gravity based on the pattern. If one is strongly attached to belief in the polarity of heaven / hell, perhaps one gravitates to where others with this attachment have gathered. In the end, "hell" is probably as simple as someone who cultivate selfish attachments and patterns, being drawn to similar circumstances, such as in ghost form being drawn to another life form who also cultivates a similar pattern, and thus one remains stuck with the unfolding of the same types of patterns. Or perhaps in a more distant spiritual realm where one gets stuck to a bunch of other entities of similar patterns, where none of them have any control over changing these patterns until they are reborn again. But on the level of suffering, I don't know if it applies. On the level of spirit, perhaps there is limitation over changing one's pattern in any significant way (as we can in human form in any case), but also there is likely no longer attachment to good or bad. It simply is as it is. We can see clearly the imbalances, and when we are reborn we know what our karma is and what we need to do to dissolve it. Trouble is, by the time we're reborn there's a lot of distraction and it's hard to get to a still enough place to be able to recognize the importance and need to dissolve this pattern.... even as we are constantly facing the unfolding of present day life based on the karma of the past. So I think it is people in the flesh who are afraid of things like hell - maybe it's true that one who consistently does "evil" get stuck where there are spiritual patterns of "evil", but at that point it simply is what it is. So really in this whole dance it's about all of us as a whole learning to work a little harder at creating balance, then the stagnation, and what we perceive as evil will go away. But even then, evil is a good thing, as it teaches us a lesson about reality and the importance of balance.

I think what opendao was hoping to convey is that Jing, Qi, and Shen both have houtian and xiantian expressions, and one needs to cultivate the xiantian expression in each of them in order to progress. Cultivating the houtian expression won't help one attain unity. I've come across a lot of understandings that look at Shen as being on the xiantian end of the spectrum, with Jing being on the houtian end of the spectrum. They may operate in tune with different heavenly and earthly vibrations, but my understanding is that the tao exists before and between heaven and earth. Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio: He goes on to explain this in depth. It is nice to hear of schools which work from Shen to Qi to Jing, but whichever direction one starts from, the WuJi comes from the merging of the xiantian of Qi, Jing, and Shen back into one.