Suliman

very valid point Immortal also comes to ones house to teach,thats really convenient . liu Yi ming had to cultivate filial piety and have extreme virtue and then he met his true teacher after looking for 13 years,and then met immortal, but one can have one come to the house,really interesting. Sorry i cant help being sarcastic,im open minded it still could happen but u know weird how in the past students seek Masters. Now masters come to the house

The current population of India is 1.22 billion. I'd venture that Kundalini does not lead to infertility. Quite the opposite, possibly. Edited by GrandmasterP, Yesterday, 05:45 AM. lol

Hey Kongming , i have wanted to do the exact same thing as you want to do in China. Im still considering it also , im from the Uk and although i can read some old Chinese texts i cant speak Mandarin so i am either going to go to China to learn it or find chinese people in the Uk to learn with. Have you decided to go to China and when you thinking of going?

Thanks Guys for your replies Funny enough Dao rain Dao ive started reading Lu K'uan Yü 's book "Secrets of Chinese Meditation today so hopefully thats a good omen(-:

Ive posted a message on the buddhist forum also as its equally applicable im sure Hey Guys ive been reading through Hsuan Hua,other buddhist sutras and Hsu Yun ,therefore coming to a confusion :juggling: im trying to understand whats going on here. Hsuan Hua Talks of four stages of Dhyana and sitting practice... his first Dhyana explanation on the fact that external breathing stops and the true breathing occurs on one of his explanations yet i read not a consistent method of one practice,it seems there are many practices the masters mention. There is a hua tou practice which Hsu Yun practices,at other times i read mentioning about Reciting buddhas name or counting breaths or putting mind on breath until true breathing occurs ... So i read so many practices,so many ways and yet there seem to be pointing to something Then at a most important point in all this is the true method of Nurturing energy with Samadhi and Hsuan Hua speaks in the same language as Liu yi Ming Taoist patriarch and Mencius Here is his saying" """Attached to marks, whatever you do is wrong; But in non-activity you fall into emptiness. “What should I do?” you ask. It is just at this point that the greatest difficulty arises, but if you handle it, just that is nothought. Now he says..its at this point that the greatest difficulty arises,now liu yi ming says this exact thing is one of his texts Hsuan Hua mentions the way to practice here Practice consists of cultivating the mind and nurturing the nature. You must constantly observe your discursive thoughts to see what kind of thoughts are predominant. Are the majority of your thoughts concerning greed and desire? Do your thoughts contain more anger and rage than anything else? Does stupidity dominate your thinking? Reflect inwardly and examine yourself. If you can purify your mind of these discursive thoughts, you are having a response in your work. Whether you sit in full lotus, in half lotus, or casually, the essential thing is to get rid of discursive thoughts so that genuine wisdom can appear. As long as the false is not ended, the true will not manifest. In cultivating we work on the mind-ground. That is called the Mind Ground Dharma door: causing the mind to become pure. If you can be pure for one instant, you are on Magic Mountain in that one instant. If you can be pure at all times, you are always on Magic Mountain. Regardless of whether you recite the Buddha's name, hold mantras, keep the precepts, expound the teachings, or sit in Chan meditation, the goal is to focus the mind on a single point, to cast out the false and retain the true. At all times, look within yourself and recognize your original face(what does he mean by this?-how does one look within like he is speaking of). That is the method to use at the initial stages of practice. So my real question is : What is the real method to bring out this true energy? What does he mean by focus mind on single point here,because he seems to say its just a matter of sitting or calming down oneslef and reflecting inwardly so therefore is reflecting inwardly the true method? but they seem to suggest different practices and yet not just reflecting inwardly,hmm scratched head Then there is this below “That hill is called Tender Peach Hill. If you have eaten there seven times you must have been here seven years. What sort of Way do you want to learn from me?” “That depends what you teach me, master. As long as there's a whiff of Way to it, your disciple will learn it.” “There are three hundred and sixty side-entrances to the Way, and they all lead to a True Result,” the Patriarch said. “Which branch would you like to study?” “I will do whatever you think best, master,” replied Monkey. “Shall I teach you the Way of Sects?” the Patriarch asked. “What are the principles of the Sects?” said Monkey. “Within the branch of Sects, there is Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, the study of the Negative and Positive, Mohism, medicine, reading scriptures and chanting the name of a Buddha. You can also summon Immortals and Sages with this branch.” “Can you attain immortality that way?” asked Monkey. “To try and attain immortality that way,” the Patriarch replied, “is like 'putting a pillar in the wall.'” “Master,” Monkey said, “I'm a simple chap and I can't understand your technical jargon. What do you mean by 'putting a pillar in the wall?'” “When a man builds a house and wants to make it strong he puts a pillar in the wall. But when the day comes for his mansion to collapse the pillar is bound to rot.” “From what you say,” Monkey observed, “it's not eternal. No. Shan't learn it.” “Shall I teach you the Way of Silence?” the Patriarch then asked. “What True Result can be got from Silence?” said Monkey. “It involves abstaining from grain, preserving one's essence, silence, inaction, meditation, abstaining from speech, eating vegetarian food, performing certain exercises when asleep or standing up, going into trances, and being walled up in total isolation.” “Is this a way of becoming immortal?” Monkey asked. “It's like building the top of a kiln with sun-dried bricks,” the patriarch replied. “You do go on, master,” said Sun Wukong. “I've already told you that I can't understand your technical jargon. What does 'building the top of a kiln with sun-dried bricks' mean?” “If you build the top of a kiln with sun-dried bricks they may make it look all right, but if they have not been hardened with fire and water, then they will crumble away in the first heavy rainstorm.” “There's nothing eternal about that either, then,” replied Monkey. “No. Shan't learn that.” “Shall I teach you the Way of Action then?” the Patriarch asked. “What's that like?” Monkey asked. “It involves acting and doing, extracting the Negative and building up the Positive, drawing the bow and loading the crossbow, rubbing the navel to make the subtle humors flow, refining elixirs according to formulae, lighting fires under cauldrons, consuming 'Red lead,' purifying 'Autumn Stone,' and drinking women's milk.” “Can doing things like that make me live for ever?” Monkey asked. “To try and attain immortality that way is like 'lifting the moon out of water.'” ------------------------ Also it seems to me that Golden Flower follows an order similar to the masters in that focusing mind on breathing originally then it speaks of the method of "STOPPING AND SEEING" and so that seems to be the same as Hua Tou method So is there stages here in Golden flower 1 calm the mind by mind on breathing until point of stillness 2 once this has reached some good effects,,start "STOPPING AND SEEING" method =i.e Hua Tou method of Hsu Yun 3 advanced stages ------------------------------------------------ Any help on this will be helping me fight out of birth and death Thanks and me getting out will be partial merit to you guys :cheers: ooopps against precepts :rules: .... So maybe i should put :namaste:

very interesting stuff ,im am going to find the chinese version of the song of enlightenment on the internet Good interpretaton of the taoist writings guys May i ask you harmonious emptiness,what method or meditation do you practice? and how do you go about mastering the human mind? Non-doing depends of the situation. You need to start applying your own situations to these words. How do your situations measure up to these words? Then, if you have a question for the bums, the application will be applicable to your situation, and you should express it in these terms. Nondoing is not acting arbitrarily. A thought is the same as an act. If you have many or few arbitrary thoughts, then apply nondoing to your arbitrary mental patterns. Does this make any sense? Can you describe how it does or doesn't? Yes i should post on the bums but as there are hundreds and thousands of myriad situations then i am trying to get clear on a general method of practice or meditation that people are using to get clear on some of the texts ,because if theres a true method/mode of practice then it would be very similar in all different religions...for example golden flower method should accord with the writings of the sage showever Liu yi ming would warns against many practices like regulating the breathing,and focus attention on certain points etc and he says this can cause leakage...so basically im saying that if golden flower is true method then people that are practicing it should be able to explain the theory in such a way that can dissolve confusion in others and also be able to explain how it is the same as other taoist and buddhist texts Does this make any sense? Can you describe how it does or doesn't i cannot describe this because the mind does alsorts of random thingds and clings to attachments that have been built up over years and years and is different in many different situations ,however,i can say that gradually guiding desires can mean many many things so i would like to ask what can one apply that to?

i think for peoples interest and your comments you guys may be interested in a comment i received A very clear explanation on the overall meaning of this was posted on a buddhist forum ,so i would like to share the response because this makes real sense even in connection with Taoism I interpret this as being fasting from attachment to the body itself (but I don't read Chinese!). This can also be hunger and thirst. Whatever the body desires, whether it is to seek or avoid a thing, hence "do not move". In other words when these things happen to the body, any discomfort, the desire is to move. Towards heat, away from cold, towards food, away from an uncomfortable position. To move the body is to move the mind, to move the mind is to move the energy, to do this with attachment or aversion is to continue in ignorance. So the first thing is the fast of the body. We grasp with the four extremes because all of these things are sought out or prevented with our four limbs. Feet move us towards or away from desirable situations, hands grasp our push away desirable things. The body has a desire, the feet carry us there, the hands grasp it- fasting from all this is the fast of the body I feel to mention that this is a great reply of a clear explanation What i do want to ask everyone is ...now that the meaning is clear then now one needs a method or a process of practice,which im trying to fathom One could fast in body or fast in other things but the result could be unwanted falling into emptiness so i am thinking that theres a subtelty to the process of fasting What comes to my mind is the saying in (thomas cleary) Ancestor Lu 100 character tablet classic commentary by Liu yi ming..... in 2nd line of 100 character tablet Lu says "conquer mind,do not doing" and liu yi ming explains the meaning saying basically it means the human mind must be conquered,but he says not to conquer by force but to conquer yet not trying to conquer then he quotes taoist classic "understanding reality by chang po tuan/zhang ziyang" with the phrase " go along with desires,gradually leading them along"--this is the secret of conuering the mind. Has any body any ideas of the exact meaning of this and how one would go about doing it? thanks again for your responses

Thanks Chi Dragon for your response and help I see that its roots of this phrase is having peace of mind as you say

Thanks guys for sharing your views I have been reading http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf regarding the Hua touand trying to get my head around it, its a great text and analysis but maybe a bit too in depth ,maybe it would of been better if the author Stuart Lachs highlighted some bullet points as my mind shuts off whenever the analysis becomes too indepth however i never get weary of reading this guy -Chuang Tzu- and this is a great place for me to re read,as im so enthusiastic about anything to do with his text So ill be looking through these two Sutras mentioned Surangama Sutra and Mahasatipatthana Suttat Its really encouraging to get such good responses have to add a note that im very cautious when it comes to secret of golden flower because the text itself is a mystery and so are the masters it talks about so as its so obscure i would be cautious in personally following it(although im not saying its wrong or worthless to those that can understand its subtelties(theory and practice without blind acceptance in hopes of results)

Hey Guys im emailing about something that im trying to find out and im posting it here because i think this equally applies to Buddhism as it could be in Buddhism or taoism because the Master patriach was a Buddhist and Taoist. Its on fasting of the body and fasting of the eyes,which is the where my question lies Any suggestions on what he means by Body fasting and turning the gaze within? ive been confused about this one for a while(over 6 months) so any suggestions will help in advance I have also put the chinese characters beside the text for all you guys may know Chinese to check if you would like to because i do not fully understand the menaing of the characters. I was reading Song of Enlightenment by Hsuan Hua(buddhist) and came to a phrase that said LET THE FOUR ELEMENTS GO. DO NOT GRASP AT THEM. We people are made from the combining of the solidity of earth, the moisture of water, the wormth of fire, and the breath of wind. We should not grasp and become attached to these characteristics or to the complications which arise from having a self. So then i put 2 and 2 together and bean to think this is what the patriach means by the phrase 一．四大不着而身斋。 The first fast. The four elements do not grasp - then the body is purified. He speaks about the first fast being the body, so i was confuse whether he means 4 elements 四大 or 4 limbs of the body not moving, because there are many texts in taoism that speak of the body not moving by being physical immobility while cultivating However i am inclined to believe that he accords with Buddhism in this one because of the fact that his language is often similar to Hsuan Huas but i could be wrong because the Text was written in the 1700's Before i was reading "Hsuan Hua's" song of enlightenment i had been puzzled of the meaning of the body fasting in this context. Here is an exerpt of the text below for your interest A Patriarch is talking to his student and there is a dialogue and the student asks "i beg of you to explain how i can cultivate" and he Patriarch responds 一．四大不着而身斋。 The first fast. The four elements do not grasp - then the body is purified. ------(alternative translation is...the four extremes(of the body) do not move. 二．诸虑具息而意斋。 The second fast. All thought devices rest(stop) - then the intellect is purified. 三．回光反照而眼斋。 The third fast. The light is turned back - then the eyes are purified. 四．声音不入而耳斋。 The fourth fast. The sounds do not enter - then the ears are purified. 五．香臭不到而鼻斋。 The fifth fast. The perfume and the stink does not reach - then the nose is purified. 六．是非不动而舌斋。 The sixth fast. By the truth or the falsity being not moved - then the tongue is purified. 六斋已毕，复进而请曰：弟子斋矣。敢问其道？ After bringing to fruition the six fasts, the student has returned and asked: the student is purified now. Dare I ask about this Dao? Im also posting this in other discussions as its important i know the character meaning in chinese an also understand what is the meaning of these fasts I have also read secret of golden flower an many taoist texts but i cannot fully understand the meaning of these 6 fasts Any help appreciated

Hey Guys im emailing about something that im trying to find out and im posting it here because i think this equally applies to Buddhism as it could be in Buddhism or taoism because the Master patriach was a Buddhist and Taoist. Its on fasting of the body and fasting of the eyes,which is the where my question lies Any suggestions on what he means by Body fasting and turning the gaze within? ive been confused about this one for a while(over 6 months) so any suggestions will help in advance I have also put the chinese characters beside the text for all you guys may know Chinese to check if you would like to because i do not fully understand the menaing of the characters. I was reading Song of Enlightenment by Hsuan Hua(buddhist) and came to a phrase that said LET THE FOUR ELEMENTS GO. DO NOT GRASP AT THEM. We people are made from the combining of the solidity of earth, the moisture of water, the wormth of fire, and the breath of wind. We should not grasp and become attached to these characteristics or to the complications which arise from having a self. So then i put 2 and 2 together and bean to think this is what the patriach means by the phrase 一．四大不着而身斋。 The first fast. The four elements do not grasp - then the body is purified. He speaks about the first fast being the body, so i was confuse whether he means 4 elements 四大 or 4 limbs of the body not moving, because there are many texts in taoism that speak of the body not moving by being physical immobility while cultivating However i am inclined to believe that he accords with Buddhism in this one because of the fact that his language is often similar to Hsuan Huas but i could be wrong because the Text was written in the 1700's Before i was reading "Hsuan Hua's" song of enlightenment i had been puzzled of the meaning of the body fasting in this context. Here is an exerpt of the text below for your interest A Patriarch is talking to his student and there is a dialogue and the student asks "i beg of you to explain how i can cultivate" and he Patriarch responds 一．四大不着而身斋。 The first fast. The four elements do not grasp - then the body is purified. ------(alternative translation is...the four extremes(of the body) do not move. 二．诸虑具息而意斋。 The second fast. All thought devices rest(stop) - then the intellect is purified. 三．回光反照而眼斋。 The third fast. The light is turned back - then the eyes are purified. 四．声音不入而耳斋。 The fourth fast. The sounds do not enter - then the ears are purified. 五．香臭不到而鼻斋。 The fifth fast. The perfume and the stink does not reach - then the nose is purified. 六．是非不动而舌斋。 The sixth fast. By the truth or the falsity being not moved - then the tongue is purified. 六斋已毕，复进而请曰：弟子斋矣。敢问其道？ After bringing to fruition the six fasts, the student has returned and asked: the student is purified now. Dare I ask about this Dao? Im also posting this in other discussions as its important i know the character meaning in chinese an also understand what is the meaning of these fasts Any help appreciated

Simple Jack thank you also(in fact thank everyone replying,finding this out in my own wisdom would of took me 2,000,000 years of incarnations and then i would of still came back as a dog or a chimp .) Anyways thats much appreciated,very powerful wisdom you guys writing down.

Working with energy channels can give one some interesting experiences. These experiences will sometimes challenge your core beliefs. That's a useful function when or if it occurs, when it comes to enlightenment. But by itself, without contemplation, it's of no avail. In fact, if you believe you know what energy is and how it works, you are far away from enlightenment because you don't really understand emptiness. If you read Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, you'll see that Yogis also understand that energy channels are sidetracks. So it's not fair to saddle Yoga with energy practices. Yogis also have Jnana, bhakti, seva, and other yogas that don't depend on any kind of energy channel practice. If you read Avadhut Gita, you'll see once again, there is no point in energy practices from the POV of enlightenment even in Hindu Yoga. So energy practice is really a specific niche. It has more to do with having fun, health, some minor magic, things like that. Energy channels are appealing to people with the physicalist mindset. Energy channels are the spiritual analogues of physical structures of the body, and people who demand structures find this appealing. So instead of diving into a world void of structure, they go from the human body, which is structured, toward energy channels in the spirit, which are again, structured. So they go from a gross structure to a subtle one, and this is comfortable and fun for those people. But when they do this they don't understand the true nature of structures, which is emptiness, because they demonstrate huge commitment to these energy systems as if they were absolutely and inherently real, just like the believe the human body is. So think of energy as you do of mundanely useful things, like carpentry or like plumbing. It's a useful skill and you can get paid if you know it, etc... but it's not going to make you into a wizard or give you greater understanding all by itself. very enlightening...thanks for sharing ... also thanks everyone also

Thank you everyone for replying, theres some really good stuff here ,currently reading through it .. Personally i didnt expect this much reply so its great how so many people understand this stuff. You are correct,i have been reading Mahayana buddhism ,and they speak of that system as the great vehicle.

Hey Guys i have been trying to understand the difference between the Yogis definition of Prajna and Buddhist understanding of it and in my small understanding i seem to get the impression that when Yogis speak of prajna this is connected with Energies and related enhancement in the Chakras etc ... ~~Like for instance in Gabriel Cousens(Yogi and Rabbi) book he talks of food that builds Ojas that help hold more Prajna etc...~~ Whereas the buddhist idea which i get from reading some sutras from Buddhist masters there is no doubt about it that what they refer to as prajna is not energies or working with the body and i get the indication(could be my interpretation) that they would term energy practices to do with prajna the small vehicle and so is not the true enlightenment but a coarse kind of enlightenment... Like they patriach buddhist master mentions how arhats and conditioned enlightened ones are unaware of profound prajna and only cultivate superficial prajna.. And in many buddhist novels and teachings(as well as taoists) they completely deny that energy practices can lead one to the jewel in anyway so it is said in taoist circles to be "sidetracks"- {the more u practice the further away you become } - and in buddhist texts they say how it cannot lead one to buddahood. Ive been confused about the distinction between the two schools of thought(kundalini yogis and buddhists) for a good time now and although ive tried to see a connection and link the two somehow ...as it was my thinking that true wisdom would be the same in every true teaching but all i can see is that the buddhist masters deny that energy practices can lead one to true "awakened to vacuity,suchness" Do you think there is anyway of getting to true buddha enlightenment via the yogic way of energy practices Opinions from guys from all backgrounds will be welcomed and it would be great to hear you guys thoughts on this as i really have been trying to find a true understanding ..of whether there is difference or sameness in the schools of thought. Thanks in advance