ॐDominicusॐ

its all the same thing, just different words are used: Tao, Ultimate, Supreme, Unconditioned, God, etc Actually, an Atheist chooses not to believe in any Gods. They're not saying, "We don't believe God exists." They're saying "we choose not to believe in anything until there is some substantial scientific proof" You can repeat this a trillion times, but at the end of the day, Esoteric Mystical Experiential Christianity, which today is still alive and well, also speaks of this "Union/Merged Experience" as the unconditioned. Well then that's a good thing that The Esoteric Mystical Experiential Christianity doesn't go by Webster. Surprisingly they are saying the same thing. Unconditioned, Inherently accessible within, yet also without. If there is any Dualistic approach to God, it is mostly OT based. NT instead provides a systematic method to also directly experience the Unconditioned. Same thing the Christian Mystics say. You seem to be looking for various excuses, but your using an entire separate Branch of Westernized Dogmatic Fundamentalism, Catholicism, or OT speak (which then you are bringing Judaism into the mix) Once Jesus shows up into the picture, he changes everything and simplifies it, making "Going within to find the Kingdom of God" more easily accessible, since this particular path has a lot of Mystical Grace included. When we look at the Monks, hermits, Mystics of the tradition, who merged into Union with God, they talk about all the same phenomenon as Taoists, Buddhists, Kashmir Shaivism, Sufism, and so on. Your looking at the Exoteric outer shell, and basing everything off of that. While the inner esoteric core, comes to the same conclusion as Lao Tsu did.

well it seems we have a problem because I have proof that counters what your saying. A large number of Enlightened Saints that have existed within the Esoteric Christian Traditions, that have laid out reality, surrender, letting go, and experieince over beliefs, exactly that way you have laid it out. Unless you have some sort of magical machine or transcendent method to scan the inner thoughts and inner states of people of the past, and current Monks, then there is no possible way for you to now whether or not someone has let go of their beliefs. I can provide you with hundreds of Books from the Esoteric Christian Traditions, where they had the foresight and knowledge to know that belief is not experience. Whereas you seem to have chosen to believe, and repeat it as if it is concrete evidence, that no Christian (except of Teresa of Avila) has ever tasted the Absolute Truth because they are all stuck beliefs. You have quite a large amount of reading to do, because how you have laid out a lot of things is not at all what you have believed yourself these things to be. We all agree that what we believe to be true, is not the same as the Truth. Who ever said that Christian Mystics reach Enlightenment through beliefs? Nothing wrong with that. But that's just One method to realize Enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't start and end with Lao Tzu

Do you have a source or factual proof anywhere that this is so? Surrender and letting go in that Tradition, means surrender and letting go of all things, mind, ego, beliefs, the body, Absolutely everything is let go of and Surrendered As you mention the above quote, it is described this way also in the Esoteric traditions still in existence. There are volumes of books written by the Mystics and Saints describing the depths of Letting Go/Surrender of all hope, ego, skandhas, thoughts, mind, etc Just like the above quote, again I can provide one with various volumes discussing the exact same features as this above quote. This above quote is typically attributed to Westernized Dogmatic Fundamentalist Exoteric Christianity. The true Surrender and Letting Go Attributed to the Esoteric/Mystical/Experiential traditions still in existence, discuss ever deeper and stage like attributes of surrender and letting go that leads to a direct experience of Heart-Mind Absolute reality and there are various thick volumes that describe this, with traps along the way to avoid (one of them being "pretending" to let go, or "letting go from the ego.") It's all covered my friend It's a paradox. One who has surrendered is beyond all labels such as "esoteric" "taoist" "christian" etc etc. Yet, it is still through those systematic processes/paths that many can attribute coming to this knowledge or realization. So while I myself, am also beyond all labels, there is at the same time a Love, understanding, compassion, and enjoyment of the processes of different paths and areas of study. Do I love and enjoy Buddha and the Buddhist system? Yes. Christ, and the Esoteric/Experiential Christian system? Yes. Lao Tzu, and the Taoist system? Yes. It's all different ways to the same place. Not everyone has attributes and intellect that will allow them to comprehend Zen, Tao, Buddhist thought. There are simpler minds, which for them, Bakhti is more applicable, or mantra, or etc O.k. so by the above logic, we can then say, any Buddhist who talks about Enlightenment, is not a Buddhist. Any Taoist, who talks about the Tao, is not a Taoist. Esoteric Christianity, and experiential surrender go hand in hand like Air to Lungs

Maybe at first, but eventually, Awareness becomes aware that the ego is not who we are. To Know/Gnow thyself, includes seeing knowing that the Ego is not I. It would be easier if you read The Heart Attack Sutra, by Karl Brunnholzl Not that much different. Just semantics and different methods. The end result is the same: http://www.meditationexpert.com/comparative-religion/c_christian_cultivation_is_emptiness_meditation.htm http://www.meditationexpert.com/comparative-religion/c_samadhi_meditation_in_christianity_islam_judaism.htm http://www.meditationexpert.com/comparative-religion/c_christian_mysticism.htm There are 2 Christianities,...a religious Christianity, and Mystical/Esoteric Experiential Christianity. IMO, the real essence of the Latter Version can be most quickly be seen through the writings of all Saints/Mystics/Monks/Hermits with the tradition that specifically discuss Union w/ God. Go look up Bernadette Roberts. Seriously, you have no way of knowing if "No Christian or theist has ever, or can ever, experience enlightenment.". It is a subjective thing. Unless you are able to go back in history, and have access to all people in the world to scan their current states, your above quote is nothing more than speculative & subjective abstractions Hence the reason why the majority in Esoteric Christianity go through the Dark Night of the Soul, a systematic stripping away of all conditions/skahndas. Hence the reason why the majority in Esoteric Christianity practice Surrender and Letting Go.

Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, various Desert Fathers, St. Seraphim the Russian Staretz, Elder Paisios of Mt. Athos, Bernadette Roberts, I can give you possibly 3-4 dozen more names, but would have to dig out some old links/bookmarks. We can say, everything is a barrier to such a threshold. In the Christian paths, most of the Monks go through a period called Dark Night of the Soul, where all belief is stripped away, including "theism", leaving only bare/naked Awareness by itself. "I and the Father are One" - Jesus If the "Father" here is the Absolute Supreme State found in the Heart-Mind or Hara(some say is also an access point) ....then what more do you need. A number of Sufis, who realized the Heart-Mind, have also said that they and God are One. It's different words describing the same things that Zen, Tao, Buddhist, Dzogchen all describe. Only difference is Jesus had to dumb everything down. So this is merely your take what the Realization does to a Theist? What I see instead is that instead realizing there is no Higher Authority looking out for you, you realize the Authority is Everywhere, in you, a part of you, and Infinite. The relationship becomes a direct experiencing of being merged with the beloved. It is no longer a "thought" that reality is all there is, but a direct experience. The Mystery remains and Love is there as well (Sat, Chit, Ananada) Reality seems cold at first depending on how truth is uncovered. If it's uncovered via Bhakti, then sat, chit ananda remain as well. Hence the Buddhist monks always mention compassion. This is what you have chosen to believe Christianity is like. But as we all know, the belief and concepts of the thing, is not the same as the reality of the thing. our above quote can most definitely be attributed to Westernized Dogmatic Fundamental Christianity. However your missing out on the extremely Rich Esoteric Mystical Gnostic Christianity that is based on experience, Truth, Enlightenment, Heart-Mind and still exists within various Monasteries and various folks. That's exactly what Esoteric/Mystical Christianity is about. All of a sudden, the Christian has in their heart, a physical yearning and burning want/need to know the Absolute, to experience directly the Truth. Then begins the path which culminates in a direct experience, hence it applies to the Lao Tzu quote.

Yet knowledge is still inherently necessary to know that it itself is a barrier, to know that knowledge is in the head, to know that there is a heart-mind, to know that going on in life as one always had, like everyone else, wrapped in the head, isn't the Truth. In my case, To "Know Myself" was key to my personal path. To know why I do the things I do, where does Lust arise from, how does the mind label things, If I am not who I think I am, then who Am I. ...All these things along with inquiry and awareness have lead to the Heart-Mind. So in that case, what Jesus would have said, "Know thyself, and then you will know God," would have rang absolutely true in my case and about a handful of others I know

So you're basing only 1% being Factual as a result of the word "Father" only being used in Mathew? IF we look around the world, everything operates by group think. Repubs, democrats, nationalism, gender, I'm a Buddhist, I'm a Taoist, I'm a Mystic, I only listen to classic rock ...... On the other hand, if we are to take just the supposed words in Red, of what supposedly Jesus spoke in NT, you end up with a systematic process that urges you to go, and look within. In a sense its the path of Bhakti yoga, Loving Christ & God with your whole being and your neighbor as yourself. We can go look at Bhakti in the Hindu/Buddhsit traditions, and what do we find? Surprise, a systematic process of changes that are supposed to lead to Enlightenment. What do we find in various Christian Monasteries? Surprise, a systematic process of changes that are supposed to lead to Enlightenment. You are describing Westernized Dogmatic Fundamentalist Christianity. This is the Basterdized version, but not the true original form. Since I was 3-4 years old, since my earliest memories, I have looked around at this earth realm and it has never sat right with me, the wars, rapes, pillage, murders, greed, corruption. If you want, I can post several drawings and documentaries of what goes on in North Korean prison camps, that will make you absolutely sick to your stomach and to life in general. Sure we can all be in Zen monasteries and ignore what's going on out there. But the truth is, this world is a disgusting place In Greek semantic works on the Bible, the word "Sin" means to fall away from the Ideal (paraphrased) which means to fall away from the Absolute through wrongful thinking/ignorance. Tell me a child molester isn't sinning or in ignorance using wrongful view and requires some sort of rehabilitation. Regardless of what "paths" we are discussing, I myself remember to have pre-existed as a unit of pure consciousness/awareness. I am not the body, and I am not the ego. When this body passes away, I, as pure consciousness/awareness, will continue on for infinity. Even Buddhism has book of the dead describing how to surpass all of the traps and illusions in the afterlife There are various ways to uncover that "truth". One way is Bhakti. Like I said, all the huge Religious/Spiritual branches of thought have come about because of One individual. I really don't take anyone serious, or see it as a joke, folks like Carrier, who say that Historic Jesus never existed. Furthermore, regardless of what "book" you think is right or wrong because "Father" wasn't mentioned is a moot point. There are monasteries built around the Teachings of Christ that pump out Enlightened Saints/Beings and have a systematic process to reach Enlightenment through Selfless Love, Grace, Mantra and various other methods, which are just as applicable today, and 1 can even argue even easier to have truth revealed, because there is Grace involved. I wasn't going to ask, but I have a hunch there is an agenda here or a possible bad interaction with a Fundy or a parent or someone which has brought on such fervor to only see one side of the argument?

In that case, we can apply the same views to all the ancient writings from the Vedas, Mahabharata, Koran, Sutras, Secret Of The Golden Flower, etc etc etc etc .... never ending stereotypical cycles with no end in sight. That "Majority" which we are referencing here, being scholarly academia, has a built in Bias based on hard lined Atheistic Skepticism, almost to a fault. Sure, there is such a thing as healthy Skepticism, but when it creates a bias bubble, then you've already lost. That Majority, thinks in with a certain hive mind mentality, which effects the whole to such a degree, that there are cases of corporate funding and grants being pulled, on the basis of the individuals' involved belief systems. That same majority, would look at the forums on Taobums, and say that everything we discuss here is woo, fluff, fantasies & delusions.

not the majority Everything is propaganda that causes the human mind to create Bias Bubbles. Who says they are not histories, when History is written by the winners of wars? All relative. There are sooo many instances where all the scholars thought certain portions of the Bible (that discussed geographical tidbits, such as certain locations, cities, kings, etc,) were fictitious, only to be later discovered in archeological digs. There is a recent dig that purportedly uncovered the remains of John the Baptist. Regardless, alot of stuff can be debated for days and what not. But I'd like to leave off with 2 things. 1. Physical death, the Ultimate Equalizer. We'll find out then what is true and what is not. 2. Christianity has a very old and applicable systematic process of advancement towards Enlightenment, (or as they call it, Union with God). Much of it has many similarities to all of the world's major branches and paths towards Enlightenment Alot of the hatred towards it is misplace either due to Dogmatic Fundamentalism, Christian based egotism which causes followers to do all sorts of stupid acts in the name of Christianity/God/Christ, Catholicism (and all the sick, evil, corrupt, stupidity done in its name) and many other factors

Aspects of Christianity also discuss "denying yourself" (as in deny the Ego) and that the "Kingdom of God is within you" with various parables that have to do with digging deep within to find the Pearl of Truth. To go within, implies knowing thyself and wisdom of self. The belief aspect is merely the beginning stages along the Christian path and considered Exoteric, while later on with direct experience, come the realizations and insights of the esoteric aspects. There are various stories of various Saints performing Divine Miraculous abilities and the like, with various witnesses at hand. I wouldn't be so quick to drop miracles. Buddha performed a few to prove he had realized the Supreme Ultimate. While I would never place myself in any of those categories, I've personally seen through walls when my Third Eye was completely and fully open .....whereas before I was a hardened materialist skeptical Atheist(you can imagine how quickly that dead horse passed away). With all the findings of our reality not being as solid as we think, several scientists offering new theories of non-local consciousness, the effect that observation has on solidifying reality, and a new experiment in the works that is supposed to prove the reality is an illusion ....I'm afraid it's no longer so cut and dry. Absence of evidence, isn't necessarily evidence of absence. There are plenty of historical figures for whom we have no artifacts or physical evidence of their existence ....but that's not evidence that they didn't exist. The spreading of new thought/philosophy takes time, especially when the old guard is hardened. I'm of the school that Jesus was a Gnostic, and that just like in VMarco's reply above, the rest of the Disciples were in fact dumbed down to the Gnostic realities, which caused all sorts of anomalies in the NT. I think Gospel of Thomas is important. It is clearly the earliest of all the NT writings and in it is said to be the Secret Teachings of Jesus to his Disciples. In Thomas there are very Koan-like, Nondual-like sayings. "Know thyself and you will know God." or "When two things are One, then you will Know God." I think Thomas is the link to Gnostic/Mystical Jesus. When Jesus taught, he had to wrap his teachings in the language of the day, in Jewish OT frame of mind/thought. It was necessary to dumb it all down. Also interestingly is, that just like Buddha said to test his Philosophies to see if they are true ...to see experientially yourself, the same "test for yourself" invitation is upheld in the Esoteric Mystical branch of the Eastern Orthodox Monastical branch of Christianity. Either way, all this Jesus stuff ain't going nowhere. Just like the Muslims. They are increasing in HUGE numbers. They also have a Philosophy and teaching in the Mosques in Europe, for married couples to procreate a dozen or more kids, get them all highly educated, and inserted into positions of power within the countries they live, i.e. Government, Lawyers, C.E.O's, Bankers. Islam is spreading through Europe like a wildfire. It's funny that Nostradamus has a prediction that all of Western Europe will be Muslim, as did Edgar Cayce. Nucking Futs is what I think about all that. Fundy Dogma at its finest.

"they" just hide it? So you are saying all of academia is hiding it? I find Carrier's points super weak, and there are plenty "apologetics" and counter point/arguments against him on youtube, that equally extinguish his points. My personal take: All spiritual/philosophical paths, surround 1 person. Buddhism around Buddha, Islam around Muhammed, Lao Tzu around Taoism, Adi Shankara around Advaita, Neo-Platonism around Plato/Socrates. We have 1 thing in common. 1 person presents a systematic philosophy/idea, and then people form groups around it. If Jesus didn't exist, then let's also add Buddha, Muhammed, Lao Tzu, Shankara, Socrates, etc 1 of Carrier's points to discredit the Existence of Jesus (if you watch his presentation) is to joke and make fun of, Spiritual realities and miraculous acts. 2 things that are inherent in all of the Branches/Paths that I mentioned above. Either way, Carrier seriously makes some extremely weak points. 1 of them being that the writings of Paul can't be taken serious because he's not talking more about Jesus and how he was. Seriously? Paul was writing to Churches and groups of folks who already knew about Jesus and were Practicing their own Spiritual practices, surrounding the teachings of Jesus. Anyway, I'm all ears, but Carrier has some weak presentations

Carrier is actually a tiny TINY fractional minority that believes so. The Majority of scholarly Phd based academia are in agreement that he did exist

There is a state in Mystical Esoteric Christianity, where the person becomes Indwelled by the Holy Spirit, bringing with it Mystical states, loosening consciousness from the body, and opening many of the Nadi's, creating a very light and loose physical body which seems to be Immune to poisons of Various sorts. This state is usually temporary, or comes and goes, followed by various additional states that are supposed to lead to Enlightenment.

It will not end Christianity, if anything it will end Catholicism, which only makes up a certain percentage of Christians. There is a large percentage of Westernized Evangelical and various other denominations that exist outside of Catholicism, of which, if Catholicism ends, those denominations will continue. Unfortunately for you, it will not be the end of the Christian Meme and you will not witness it in your lifetime. I would gladly bet you all the money in my savings account, my truck, and everything I own that you won't see it. Like I said, you're not gonna see it in your life time. I'll be more than happy to see Catholicism and the repressed sexual urges that cause the molestations, corruptions, and spiritual dumbing down to end just as well. Like I said, that is just a small portion of the whole You may be referring to the whole, "I'm right, your wrong... & our way is the Only way," attitude that happens in a lot of Christianity. In that case its spiritual or ignorance based egotism. Surprisingly, the same egotism & drama I have found in Christianity, I have also found in Zen Monasteries, among Buddhists and their monasteries, amongst Nondual teachers, and retreats, and so on. Perhaps you are referencing a Universal trait that is actually a spiritual trap permeating all traditions. "the christian of the future will be a mystic or he will not exist at all" karl rahner Your completely missing out on, and perhaps have failed to see, the Esoteric Core of Mystical Christianity. They too have reported Rainbow bodies, Miraculous abilities, Chi, NAdi's, Enlightenment, Merging with the Absolute, Chakras, Neti Neti, Mantra, etc. There are still rich traditions within Christianity that pump out Enlightened Saints. For example many of the Monasteries on Mount Athos consistently pump out Enlightened Saints still to this very day, all based on the same "Direct Experience" tat Lao Tzu ascribed to. So really, it's not all black & white as you have put it.

1. There is no One here and there's nothing you can do. Sure that's the view for a person who has realized the Absolute and is sitting in that perspective. While everyone else is trying to make sense of this scratching their heads. There actually are many things that can be done that help with all this Advaita business. Awareness aware of itself, mindfulness, pushing away all thinking and the thinker of thoughts, koans, etc etc. 2. You are Awareness. I've come across many books and youtube vids of Vedanta "guru's" who basically show, tell, or teach you how to get to Awareness, or realize Awareness prior to the mind. They then stop there and that's it. Yet that's not the end of the road. Awareness eventually drops down a Nadi vertically, and falls into the heart (sinoatrial node 2 digits to your right from the center of the chest), where Awareness dissolves into the One. 3. The constant search, listening, reading of Vedanta knowledge. This is also a trap. The mind for years wanting to get it's grips on as many videos, books, retreats as possible that has to do with this subject. It's a trap. Eventually the mind hits a saturation point where it knows everything "Vedanta" and all the newest teacher's books become cyclically repetitive. At this point, the search is let go of, and Awareness, seeing, establishing, practice should be going on. The mind saying, "I want realize any of this stuff unless I ....go to that retreat, listen to this vid, podcast, new book, etc" All illusions, all traps. There are various others and if you'd like to post them here, by all means go for it. Just wanted to add, personally for myself, after having read the list of books I'm about to post, I came to a place of no more questions, no more searching, and just sitting practice, being, resting, insights, etc... I Am That and Ultimate Medicine by Nisargadatta Be As You Are by Ramana Maharshi Science of Soul by Shri Yogeshwaranand Parmahans: http://atma-vijnana.narod.ru/SCSOU_TX.htm Human Buddha by Anadi (Aziz Kristof) The Most Direct Means To Eternal Bliss Various random Nonduality pointers and Zen Koans that can be found all around the net and just sitting with them All those above allowed a saturation point, being done with the search, resting in Being and the Now, and tons of experiences, insights, realizations that came with practice

I just wanted to mirror some of TI's thoughts in this regard as well when it comes to Francis Lucille. I too have had experiences like Lucille, Absolute Illumination, seeing that the mind/body is not me, and a vast box of chocolates (Miscellaneous experiences). But like I said earlier, I'm beginning to witness stages of prolonged periods of all vasanas silenced. Experiences that Swartz mentioned....... Had those too. So the question is, should I now be teaching like Swartz & Lucille? To me, I don't care ...maybe there is some reluctant bodhisatva somewhere in me, and I have shared the Advaita message with a dozen associates and watched as those who were ripe, through words, realized this Absolute Self..... Truth be told ......the Love is in the solitude, the silence, Being, stillness, the Now, Vastness, absorption, Love, and yes even Grace plays a part. Not from some Guru, but perhaps from the Absolute itself. I think personally, the whole Vedanta deal is specifically pointed towards the Absolute and ignoring all the extras. Though they be inevitable, the way my whole body would burn in fiery heat just from Neti Neti practice, Vedanta will always include the scenery along the way. They don't discuss it, because they are distractions ....just keep going neti neti, neti neti...... My biggest thing, which I find solace in Vedanta (and I know this is of the "mind") is that I will do whatever it takes to never have to come back to this Earth Realm again. I think to realize Self and permanent abidance as That, is the only 1 way ticket outta here.

This is all like arguing colors with a blind man imho. It's all the same stuff at the end. Nit-picking, pointing fingers, division, duality, "why is this here and not there," ...all of this is mind based vasanas/illusions. Really who cares? We're all better off in practice mode ....whatever that may be ...neti neti, anapanasati, pointers, koans, etc I was once a "strict" Vedantist, and just through that "mode" all these other experiences started arising that Kashmir Shaivism discusses... ...it's all the same at the end. Different paths to the top of the mountain and arguing the differences is really like arguing over cookies and milk in kindergarten... Oh and I love you guys all .....even though 'I' is an Illusion

In my experience, the energetic qualities came later and by surprise, after investigating, "Who Am I, Where Am I, What Am I? Neti Neti, etc" So there is an established knowing here not to cling. The energetic qualities just seem to come with the territory. There is a difference between experience & knowledge in all things. In my personal experience, which I have later on found echoed in a number of teachers/teachings, is that that mind and aspects of yourself that hold knowledge, have to catch up to, or take the time to, figure out what just happened in "Experiences" like glimpses of Satori and a number of other various realizations. It took me 2 years to understand my initial glimpses, realizations, experiences.... if not more. "Almost everyone" ......being key words here. At least in my case, I have seen "Me" to be an illusion and the "search" to be part of the Illusion, as well as seeing that "feelings" of powerful and blissful come and go. So there is a complete letting go, acceptance, Being, Allowing Surrender, etc. The seeking/seeker is definitely illusory nature. I feel with the above statement, it's similar to Sailor Bob saying, "there is nothing you can do. Full Stop." All of that is a misnomer. I've been, years ago, at various Vedanta retreats where the Above statement's are said over and over and over again and people just end up saying, "Well, I get it intellectually, but that's about it." And they remain in this cycle of ever hearing, but never understanding. Ramana Maharshi spoke of 3 kinds of people (paraphrased). 1. Ripe. Can hear a pointer and instantly "Boom!!!!" The Self is realized and permanent. 2. Somewhat Ripe, will need some time to acclimate, glimpses here and there, and eventually realize Self 3. Unripe and will probably never get it this life. On top of all that said, I find there is definitely things that you can do to put yourself at the edge of a precipice/cliff of realization. For myself, it was reading Koans/Pointers that gave the Initial glimpse. However even that happened in stages. First I shifted from Ego/Mind, to Observer of mind or Pure Awareness, and this Awareness had the ability to leave the body and remember pre-existing prior to the body as this Awareness. If you consider the Above experience, and the read about Adi Shankara, consolidater of Vedanata, he too would leave his body as Awareness. Furthermore, after realizing self as awareness prior to the mind, and taking a sigh of relief of finally being free from ego/mind (which caused me so much crap problems in life up to that point), the sigh of relief and full letting go, Allowed this awareness to drop down into the Absolute ...where there was no more Awareness anymore ...everything was One grand Being. So my take is that Neo-Advaitists got it wrong cause they stop at Awareness. And that the old school purists possibly also have it wrong because they are saying, it's only the Self/Absolute and that's it. I think at the end of the day it's: The Absolute. Not the Absolute. Both. None. All 4 of those simultaneously still allows the multidimensionality of existence, body, nadi's, arising and falling away of the sign posts and scenery ...all of that stuff happening within the One/Tao/Absolute, etc. Yeah, been there and done that too. Arising and passing away of all these "states, bliss, experiences, etc." Yet the one that Observes them, is what remains after they pass, so it's adamant to start with the principle observer that remains when all states/experiences subside. Yeah been there too. Went through a 3 year dark night of the Soul. It made depression look like sheer ecstasy in comparison. But what the Dark Night did, was to reveal that no matter what comes and goes, the Observer is there through it all... so what/where is this Observer? That's the ultimate starting point imho To the mind/ego however, it definitely labels "Nondual Awareness" as a state. It's the label maker's nature to make labels for things. I hear you though. The Nondual Awareness is the basic building block that is fundamental reality. At least that's what was seen here. Thing is, in my experience of Vedanta, it brought out with it, all these extras that I had let go of or didn't even believe in. Nadi's, Awareness traveling out of the body, bliss, pre-existent memories, various other states that come with all of this, etc. That's why I said, in my view, Enlightenment is multi-dimensional. I agree it's not anything added to us. I would say it is more like in example using a parable of an Onion compared to the practice of Neti Neti. Who am I that is not a thought. Not This, Not this, not the mind, not thoughts, not the body ...is like peeling away an Onion layer by layer. When everything is peeled away and let go of, there is a complete Unknowing that remains, and in that Unknowing, the Absolute becomes revealed, which was always there. It's not added, it's just revealed when all illusion is stripped away. But that's just the thing. With all of this came Nadi's opening up, and mind tendencies being cleared away, compassion, Love, Life living me and instead of me living life. There is just soooo many applicable traits that can be said about it all. That's why my take was that Enlightenment is miraculous abilities, a physical body that is changed, all illusions discarded, etc because all of those things are reality. Your right! Do not judge. I think in my case, as with many, there comes a saturation point of reading and listening to all these Vedanata teachers. After a good 5-6+ solid years of studying this stuff, all the things these guys say, the pointers that are meant to reveal what is beyond mind, and "you are not who you think you are" and all that other stuff, it becomes the same stuff recycled. I'll give Swartz another shot, but honestly for me all that's left is practice. Being, letting go, Stillness, Neti Neti, Awareness aware of itself, Anapanasati, Seeing that I am not the mind or thinker of thoughts, etc. This is where the magic happens and Self consolidates itself

Im also agreeing that Swartz is implying basics of Neo-Advita buy going back to Awareness itself. What I've seen, and has corresponded to what I read, is that the Absolute state is even Prior to Awareness and is the source of Awareness. I've also had quite lengthy periods of extinguished vasanas, just a timeless unknowing Now whith no one there to experience. You can be all day in all sorts of states, but if the original principle illusion factory is in full effect, then what's the point!!!! Enlightenment to me, Complete establishment, in and as That (The Absolute) with all ego/illusion tendencies stilled or whipped out, all Nadi's Open, Love, Bi-Location and various other miraculous abilities like leaving footprints in stone. All these guys I'm seeing on the Advaita scene ....Meh. I think it's all so much more multi-Dimensional than just Realization that there is No me, and only an Absolute. I think the whole physical body changing and the mental tendencies cleaned out comes along with this. At least it has been beginning to take place in my reality

Hey, I'm all for it. That's why I'm here on the boards, to get everyone's "take" on all this Vedanta Business. Is there a specific book Swartz has or just email him or what? I've seen some of his vids on the youtube there, but wasn't really impressed having heard it all before. The chart he has definitely looks interesting imho. Anway, lemme know.Thanks

Hey TI, Thanks for enjoying the posts. What's funny is I've been a lurker here on Taobums for years, but never joined. I remember some of the better experiential report-posts being by you as the author. So the enjoyment of posts is mutual. The tubes going out of the top and back ....seen em, haven't yet gone out through them. I just kind of made a note of them and still have access, however I knew a hermit one time from South Africa who told me not to be distracted by the various side attractions. He never told me what they were, but did mention the possibility of visiting vast and far off places (though at that time, I was like "yeah right!!!". Boy was he right!!!). Other times, I've popped completely non-locally out of the body at random times (washing dishes, getting out of shower, etc) Good to know there is someone else who has seen the tunnels. From my initial collapse into the One from reading a Koan, I spent the next 2 years in retrospect gathering intel on the state prior to mind, and the vertical drop into the chest area. I found Ramana Maharshi discussing the Atma Nadi ...though at the other end of this Nadi there is no more nadis' ...as then everything is One. So ultimately I linked my initial experience back then to Vedanta info, hence the post here. Though the koan that made it happen was all scratching the surface of what zen and taoism is all about. Been doing this for a few years now. Observing the observer. I believe this was Nisargadatta's technique that he used for 3+ years to completely dissolve into the One. Though this is also arguable by many. There is a whole book written on this technique, rather handy too ...called, "The Most Rapid and Direct Means to Eternal Bliss" For me, watching the watcher is what revealed the tunnels eventually. However the Watcher was also made of various energetic qualities, lights, etc.... Another interesting thing to know. At one point, instead of this being very loose and natural practice/seeing, in the earlier days I used to force this. Well there ended up so much access energy in the head, it was impossible to sleep for days on end until doing grounding exercises. Well one day, I was Observing the Observer .....but more higher up ...I'd say between pineal gland and crown, and all of a sudden, a Buddhist style mandala appeared. It was pinkish/bluish, very dynamic and 3 dimensional in nature, vivid, etc. This was a HUGE surprise because I was never a buddhist nor did I see myself as one, I was basically letting go of all labels/titles and I always assumed the mandalas were just cultural art. Literally 2 days later, I stopped by a friends house for a little Vedanta discussion, and he tells me he has a gift for me, from one friend to another, and ends up handing me a framed picture of a mandala that looks just like the one I saw when observing self. I was SHOCKED because I did not tell anyone of the experience! I'm guessing this info was prior to the mind...more intuitive in nature? This brings up, personally, a lot of troubling questions about he state after the body drops off in physical death. I've been adamant for quite some time now that Enlightenment, the Tao, Oneness, Union w/ God ...whatever all these different paths discuss as the peak of the mountain, is the only permanent ticket from coming back here to this realm. Also it brings up the book of the dead in Buddhsim (techniques to pass the different Bardo States) and interestingly in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, there is an extremely controversial topic on the "Aerial Toll House" basically traps in the afterlife set by malevolent forces and what not ...which sound similar to the Book of the Dead. Theoretically speaking, I wonder if you have been embodied here previously, and reached certain meditative states, upon which when the physical vessel passed away then, the state of consciousness you were in/familiar with, was the level at which you remained for quite some time, til you figured out how to transcend and be embodied again. All speculation/theory on my part, but does make me wonder. I met another fellow who said he remembered pre-existing, being told he's coming to earth to be born, telling the other units of Awareness "No ...never would I want to be born down there." ..Yet still being forced and pushed into a human fetus against his will. Brings up the possible never ending cycles of birth and death ...which personally, I would do whatever it takes not to come back here ...though that's another discussion for another time. I've heard it said that Enlightenment is only possible while embodied.... all speculation though Yes all the time. There are quite a number of features being found in this way .....sometimes I pass up myself as Subject, and find tunnels, nadi's, there seems to be a whole control center of tunnels and switches at the base of the skull where the top of the spine meets. I've a friend who dropped into Atma NAdi from hard core Neti Neti practice. He basically took off camping for a year in national parks and spent all his time in Neti Neti practice. He mentioned several sign posts along the way, also mentioned shifting into pure observer state, and then eventually falling vertically down into the chest where he was No more to be found. He's also told me, that even lower still, in lower Dan Tien, that entering there is like a porthole into like the very substrate of consciousness/existence/infinity ...basically that through there, there is no longer even a Oneness ...everything ceases, Is, Isn't ...all paradoxes at the same time ...Like Absolute Reality itself has lost itself, in itself.... his words paraphrased. So for him it's Pure Observer, Atma Nadi (middle Dan Tian area about), and then Lower Dan Tian .....all realized and merged which leaves him as: "I am, I am Not, Both, and None ...all at the same time. Again his words paraphrased. (wish I can get him on here to post more, but this guy is hard core in solitude and practice) My only experience w/ Lower Dan Tian is the breath having completely stopped for super duper looooong time and then the LD became very hot and fiery, heating up the whole body. That's about it. Also I've found when watching the watcher.... Neti Neti happens on auto pilot at that point, various channels all throughout the body become electric and moving..... (have a block in my throat for some reason, something I have to figure out what the deal is) ..Also the subject sometimes expands beyond the body, sometimes just a few inches past the head, sometimes fills the room, sometimes the sky. I can go on for days with this stuff, but I'll stop here and give you a chance to respond. The mind was sparked into digressing here.

It really wasn't up to me though. During wrestling with a Zen koan, this was the first state to shift into, away from mind/ego and into pure Observer/Awareness/Center of subjectivity, like a point int he middle of the head. I've also remembered pre-existing and discussing with 3 other "Units of Awareness" having to come here to "earth" to be "born" into a body. Whether or not that memory is illusion, is a tough one, as it came from a place very deep within prior to the ego/mind. This could be taken to a whole other extent/debate on the existence of an individual soul, unit of consciousness, divine spark, ....cold go on for days. Ha!!!! There was no one there to get anything, or in that state, there is no me. "Get" would be the mind trying to wrap itself around some ineffable business here ....it's tough talking about this stuff, that's for sure Thanks for the tip ...will check the guy out. However, the process is already well on its way and ongoing.... Will see what Swartz says. Is there a specific title? I can describe it in 3 aspects. The ego/mind is 1. The Observer/Awareness/Subjectivity of the ego mind is 2 The Observer vertically falling down a Nadi into the chest area and disappearing into an ocean of Oneness is 3. This same Nadi is also what that whole ego/mind/conscious/sub-conscious structure uses during deep sleep and waking ...it is the source of thought. I think my #2, is the whole neo-advaita stage, and where most of them leave off at. However, I knew nothing of advaita when this happened, and was studying some Koans. The shift from mind to Observer happened during the koan wrestling

OK can somebody help me with this? I can no longer access taobums without being redirected to some advertising URL sights where they want me to sign up for crap. the redirect goes to this site: http://url4short.info/560088a4 I'm on Mozilla w/ Ad Block Plus, but also tried to get on through my smart phone using Opera Mini, and tried getting on using Internet Explorer and same redirect. I'm only on here now cause I used startpage which let's you access sites through proxies.... SO i'm posting through proxies.... How do I fix this? Considering I am not the most tech savy and have no idea what sophos is being referenced above, but can slowly with patience figure out certain things. Did taobums get hijacked? I been coming here readin posts for the last 5 years, never a prob, and now that I'm a member ..I get the advertising redirect

Is this the Awareness/center of consciousness state that is prior to the Mind? As in what Neo-Advaita points to and ends there correct? I ask cause there so many various stages that revolve around the Awareness/Observer realized state. As in there can remain long periods of still shifting between that state and mind/ego. Or more one and less the other, and so many degrees between the two. If Awareness/Observer state is fully stabilized and ego/mind is permanently seen as not I, there are various ways to dissolve into the One. Attaching Awareness/Observer through concentration to the thought 'I' ...the root of Ego and not letting it go for hours at a time, will allow the Observer to follow the I thought down into it's source through the Atma Nadi. Also Net Neti .....this will also open up the Atma Nadi and allow the Observer to fall into the One. This one is tricky though because when doing Not this, Not this ...it is also imoprtant to let go of the one doing the Neti Neti ...and just remaing as what is when all is let go of pushed away as not this. There are also various sign posts along the way with just this as well. For example one morning you wake up, and actually are awake prior to the mind/ego having taken it's place in the head ...so there is just crystal clear Awareness with no intellectual knowing/discerning ...and then witnessing the ego/mind come in to the seen to start to label and project over everything. Further on down the line, it takes the ego/construct a very long time to "act". All sign posts ...which eventually lead the observer to fall down through Atma Nadi. Surrender/letting Go is HUGE!!!!!! Also has sign posts along the way til eventually, swoosh down the nadi until there is no more you. Breathing into Dan Tian and middle Dan Tian also balances out and provides aspects of surrender away from the head. When I first realized self as Awareness/Observer, I went 2 weeks no sleep. Th energetic quality was through the roof ..I could literally climb mountains with infinite energy and was getting hit on by so many women (while in a celebacy vow of all times go figure!!! Ha!!!!).... Well eventually it was too much and the body needed rest ... .....So there was a need to ground Awareness/Observer into the dan tians. The Observer/Awareness becomes like a lamp/torch for the rest of going deep within. It illuminates the sub-structures of the sub-consciouss and its source. There are various lights that are int he dan tians as well. They are also like vortexes and can pull awareness magnetically into them. Also a tunnel at the top of the Crown Chakra that shoots up into space and one in the back of the head that seems to go very very far. Soooooo many details ...but in the ONE is where home is....... In the One, merged there, everything else begins to change (body, mnd/ego/subconscious, channels, awareness, all starts to follow changes according to the will of the One, the clarity, vastness, infinity of it ..... I Hear ya!!!! That's what happened when I popped out of the body. I was like "Holy crap" I didn't believe any of this was even possible really, as I was well on my way completely structured around the belief that the end goal/realization of Vedanta was it .... yet along the way, all these detailed sign posts that I was never told about begin to pop given very detailed insights into the nature of reality and psychology..... furthermore ....doing research on signposts along the way, I've found that other's have also dittoed my experiences as well, so for the most part (though with discernment in the possibility of all things being illusory in nature) various sign posts and experiences have been legit. I was surprised to experience the Atma NAdi as well, because I never really had views on Nadi's because I cam from Christian Mysticism, to Zen, to Dzogchen, to Vedanta ....so some of those may have mentioned them, but to me blah ...didn't matter ..I wanted the gold, enlightenment, the highest peak ..so to experience certain Nadi's was like ..."Ok so these things do exist"... Ok enough words for now .... Language is so strange isn't it....... a funny thing..... Using sounds and mental symbols to communicate aspects of reality.... Ha!

All the sub-conscious material is illusuory in nature ...so in One perspective none of it matters. At the same time, there are memories there, of pre-existing prior to body, of times aeons ago, of childhood traumas and massive structures built around those, of fears, etc etc .....all of which when seen as illusion and embraced with openness, in a sense dissolves those aspects and then that leaves more openness, longer periods merged in Oneness, bliss, various channels opening up or spinning or doing strange things..... The subconscious spring cleaning is kind of a self adaptive mechanism based on a self reference on the mind... it does bring wholeness/completeness, and very deep rooted letting go of all things and perfect detachments from everything. The more the spring cleaning/letting go, seen for what it is commences, the deeper rooted is the Oneness, and all the other sign posts along the way ...with Nobody there to see any of this ...ha!!!! ...still so strange to talk about a self that s seen as illusion.