blacktrack8

Sure, expectations are just thoughts, among others. But if you haven't realized your whole day should be meditation, then meditation still hasn't worked out for you yet. If you set yourself to daily regimens and think about the fact that you're meditating, if you tell other people you meditate, if you think "I'm meditating so one day I might be enlightened", you're not going to become enlightened. In a lot of ways this is like the smoker saying "one day I'll quit" when clearly he could do something about it. (Smokers can out-think cravings). If you look at the works of the ancient enlightened they all point to the fact that we are all enlightened, and if you've been sitting for thousands of hours and still aren't enlightened, well, maybe that ways not going to let you see the light. I am not enlightened. I know that. But I know its as easy as 1,2,3 if I let it be. For some reason people think of enlightenment as the hardest of all things to attain in life, when really, if you let it all go, its that easy. Thats what Steve Hagen is trying to point out, the fact that so many people force themselves to sit, when, if its forced, theres no point. If all you're thinking about is doing your dishes or your homework when you're meditating, wouldn't you be better off doing one of them? I love the Buddha quote that goes something like this "And when Buddha became enlightened, he laughed at himself, for it had been there all along." Also, the book of the five rings is awesome. And to be fair, I don't think interest in meditation is a bad thing, and its a good jumping off point. I really would like to hear the rest of Hagen's speech, but I do think he makes a good point.

I would say Hagen makes a good point. If we go into meditation with expectation we're not doing it right.

We come up with a list of reasons to justify meditation. We think that we're going to get something from it - that it will lower our blood pressure, reduce our stress, calm us down, or enhance our concentration. And, we tell ourselves, if we meditate long enough and in just the right way, it might even bring us enlightenment. All of this is delusion. -Steve Hagen Clous appear free of care And carefree drift away. But the carefree mind is not to be "found" - To find it, first stop looking around. -Wang An-Shih I'm sure I could have never expressed it better. This one goes well with this theme too The capacity of mind is broad and huge, like the vast sky. Do not sit with a mind fixed on emptiness. If you do you will fall into a neutral kind of emptiness. Emptiness includes the sun, moon, stars, and planets, the great earth, mountains and rivers, all trees and grasses, bad men and good men, bad things and good things, heaven and hell; they are all in the midst of emptiness. The emptiness of human nature is also like this. -Hui-Neng

I didn't read this whole thing but is it possible that the practice of meditation relaxes a person as opposed to reduces their karmic overload? I don't place to much faith in the full lotus position, I was eager to try it but in the end, your whole day is meditation.

No Dummy! You'd take your next breath lol

What if the world just stopped? To let it be...

I would say intervention is generally not in the interest of the Tao. Of Course, saving someone is intervening, but thats more acting without acting on the spot. I'd say unappreciated intervention is generally not worth your while and that natural interest in spiritual development will produce more spiritual peoples.

I believe no thought of discontent ever enters the Taoist Sages mind. Therefore he never condones. Because of this, he holds no grudges. Because of this, he can help someone who may have screwed him over a time before. I believe the sage would save a child being kidnapped. He would never think about the evil of the person committing the act but instead act upon sight of the act to help the child. If the child gave him a hug afterwards he would accept it. If the child throwed a punch and ran away he would dodge the punch. Never would he think "Oh what a great thankful child" or "Oh man that little shit!". Neither would he take the time to understand the situation from the child's perspective, "Well I did save him", or "He must have been scared" because that is of no importance and no value. To truly be a Taoist Sage one must be enlightened. The state of enlightenment consists of no emotion. The state of no emotion does not pretend to not be emotional. Therefore the enlightened acts only and thinks not of evil. So in the end I believe that Lao Tzu and other Taoist sages are just giving you another example of how you are thinking, categorizing, and not being perfect Taoist Sages. By saying something is good, you create the opposite, because if things are good, then clearly a situation undesirable or less desirable must exist. The Taoist sage lives in the undesirable moment with the same ease as the desirable.

Hey all, Just thought this would be an interesting question. Are you happy? Can you say with a certainty that you are happy? Does thinking about it bring about doubts? Were you happy before you found philosophical and religious pursuits and practices? How much do you practice? Are you happier since you started practicing? I'll go first... I'm happy. I can say with a certainty that I am happy (just speaking for the moment). I've been down for times before. It's never been too bad and I've always gotten back up. Right now thinking about it does not bring doubts. I'm sure there will, emotions haven't quite been completely tamed yet. I was a happy kid before I found philosophical and religious pursuits and practices. I don't practice much but the whole day is my meditation. I would say I am happier since I've delved into the rabbit hole so to speak.I've become a more stable individual.

And that is the realization

Did enjoy the Tao of Pooh very much. I actually forgot about the kind of stupid event preceding my reading it until now. Really simple stories which explain the essence of Taoism. That, the Tao Te Ching, and this Sayings of Dogen book are some of my favorite readings in Taoism/Zen.

To Astral Anima, By no thought I do not mean a lack of brain function. I mean, no conscious thought I guess. And this lack of thought produces the actions which are so spontaneous yet perfect for each situation. I guess it is in a way, letting your entirety be guided by the subconscious as opposed to letting the subconscious control purely your heart and digestion and other such natural processes we do every day without thinking. If your body can already digest food into things which we may use for energy, whats to say of what it can do for you while you're playing soccer or doing anything that when it comes down to it is much simpler than say, breaking down complex carbohydrates into fat compounds and glutamates (just made that up don't quote me!). In a way it makes you much less of a puppet because instead of each action being carefully planned and thought out to do what you deem the best as deemed by your compadres and society, you do you. Instead of trying so hard to hook up with a girl because you heard it was fun you go to a party to have fun and end up with a girl having more fun, you know? Its a lack of expectation and an ability to make the best of everything. Its a lack of expectation with an ability to seize the moment.

In my opinion Enlightenment is knowing that no matter where in life you are you're still eating, sleeping, breathing, drinking, and excreting like the rest of us. It's the point at which when someone's pointing a gun into your face you react calmly without fear. It's when emotions do not enter into your life. When thoughts do not enter your head. When your sight is clear and you have no intentions. I'm only 20 but I've been interested in philosophy, taoism, buddhism and zen for a few years now. I woke up one day and said "after so many years of evolution I probably shouldn't need glasses to see" so I looked up stuff such as the Bates method. And it all made sense to me, so I haven't worn my glasses since. I'm no where near enlightenment but everyday as i relax a little more and my mind clears a little more I'd like to think I'll one day be at least more enlightened than I am now. (it's that hoping, thats why I'm not enlightened! but seriously ) In all it's simplicity, it is amazing it escapes so many (myself included), but in all its simplicity it could one day save the world. "You're already complete. You just don't know it yet." Enlightenment is the ultimate you which knows not of itself. I think thats the best i can put it as. The you that can do a backflip when it needs to. Its the you that doesn't mind that the message didn't read in correct grammar but instead acts accordingly having received a message. Its the you that realizes you can throw a dart as far as the bull and it doesn't require years of practice to hit. Its the you that actually throws the dart without a thought and nails the bull. Its a belief in anything you do without actually stopping to believe. My one friend on the night of July 4th kept telling me how much fun everything was. We were quite intoxicated and he just kept having to point out what a fun night it was. How the night was fun. How he was definitely having fun. The conscious thought stream telling you an experience is fun is experiencing an experience through the layer of consciousness. Enlightenment is experiencing without experiencing with that layer. There is no conscious reflection upon events. Hmm, thats what I've come up with tonight. I enjoy buddhism much but have not quite followed any paths and choose not to touch on those knowing not. The Tao Te Ching explains to me enlightenment in its purest form. To me it most certainly goes beyond the article stating you could have your ego and its events and you can just view them from a different perspective as not mattering in the grand scheme of things. While I felt he certainly understood that, in essence, nothing matters, money is bs, this and that, etc, etc, and he clearly understands enlightenment, but unless i misunderstood or misread, i'm not entirely sure about the viewpoint of allowing the ego to act with his perspective. I liked his example of asking those who meditate why they meditate though. I'm not sure if I would have responded with his exact specifications but besides 'for relaxation' it does seem odd you would choose to meditate and not realize the eventual realization is that in sitting you're doing exactly what you'd be doing anywhere else. Alright sorry if thats a little oddly written, I kind of write as I do.

Names Cody from Albany NY. Interests include Taoism, Snowboarding, Buddhism, Philosophy, Spanish/Italian, Hackey Sack and hanging with friends. I currently attend the university at Buffalo for partying with a minor in computer Engineering . I just joined 5 minutes ago and hope to read some good topics, thanks for having me bums!