Jetsun

My perspective is there is only one ultimate reality of things and most of the great masters are talking about the same thing, yet they all come from their own cultural and perspective viewpoint, the Christian ones are usually a lot more poetic and allegorical than the others which causes a powerful emotional impact, yet can also create a lot more confusion as has been shown for the last few thousand years. I think ruling over all and moving mountains is another way to talk about non-duality, if we all are one organism then the movement of the earths crust millions of years ago is just as much you as the body you currently inhabit.

I agree that is the way the world generally works and if you want to achieve things in the world you should apply this thinking , but it is an assumption that spiritually things work this way too. One of the main reasons Zen masters have taught Zazen or just sitting for thousands of years is to provide an antidote to this exact sort of thinking and mentality. The counter argument is that spiritually things go beyond the regular mind and beyond the thoughts altogether so it is an assumption that the regular thought based paradigm which you apply to most things applies to this area.

People generally want to know the path and want to have it mapped out in step by step linear way out of fear of the unknown and unpredictability, so it is the ego wanting the vastness of life to fit in to its own narrow confines so it can remain in control, yet that isn't the way it works in my experience which appears to be a curse but ultimately long term I suspect its a blessing. It would be incredibly boring to know exactly what is around the corner and to be totally in control, a story is never as good if you know what is over the next page.

How about the weight in your bowels and bladder? That goes when you die

Yeah you and everyone else, the irony being the more we do to try to gain it the more we reinforce the idea its not already present

These are some of my favourite lines from all the Gospels. My interpretation is that they are all about non-duality, "whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death" I think is talking about the fundamental identity, who you were before you were born. "When he finds he will become troubled" I have also heard it translated as "When he finds he will be disturbed", this is because realising the fundamental identity can be disturbing and threatening to the individual egoity. Many people talk about love and bliss and such things when talking about non-duality but here they say you will be troubled and I am personally glad someone said this as this is my experience of it, because what are the real deep implications that you and everyone else are on the fundamental level the same being? we are all one being, I bet even just reading these words is threatening to some people because it means that you as a separate individual will never be special, all the ideas you have held your whole life about who you are proved false and the question emerges as to who has been running the show the whole time. Many teachers have described it as like waking up from a dream, so imagine waking up and realising that it is someone else than the person you see yourself now wakes up, someone else or something else wakes up through you, isn't that troubling or disturbing? It's almost like a Steven King novel from one perspective. You become astonished by recognising that the universe is becoming aware of itself through you, then because you recognise you are the all you rule over the all because it is you.

The Gospel of Thomas is a fantastic gospel, certainly a piece of writing worth examining.

It can be a problem if you have studied many teachings as then your mind tries to get the experience to fit in with its understanding of what it thinks it should be, or can project onto it rather than simply being with what it is. It must be a blessing for those who find a good teacher straight away before they fill their minds with ideas. I didn't have this problem so much with "the void" but before when I took Ayahuasca I had read loads of books and watched loads of films about it so in my mind I convinced myself I knew exactly what it was about before I took it.. then reality hit me on the head quite harshly, as there is only one winner when you go to war with reality, hopefully I learned my lesson. Beginners mind is the ideal.

I can relate a bit, it doesn't have to be dramatic at all. if I am correct then what you are talking about is always present and always has been, we just don't notice it. Any word to describe it like "void" or "nothing" creates an image or impression in the mind which is inherently confining in some way, yet any description arises in it so can't possibly define it, so it is beyond both negative and positive descriptions (those usually come after when the mind tries to own it) but of course we have to use words if we want to try communicate to others, which is the limitation of using language to try talk about the indefinable. Does this make sense to you?

Is this a Gnostic or Hermetic map or are you talking in general? If you are talking in general I think it is an assumption that sensitivity of energy has anything to do with it, that isn't part of the Vedanta path or Zen really, which is more about the nature of identity than anything else. The whole concept of levels doesn't really apply from that perspective either as anyone can awaken in any moment and the whole concept of levels of progression is based in thought and based in time, whereas the primordial consciousness that we all are is not defined by thought or time.

By the time anger has been activated often we have already reached some conclusion in our mind about ourselves, it is usually subconscious but more often than not that conclusion isn't strictly true, it is part of a story. So one approach is to trace back what that conclusion is and question it, which is usually some thought about the nature of our identity. Don't actually try to change or drop anything just enquire into what is true and what isn't, what thoughts are you believing that aren't strictly true.

George Gurjdjieff (1886-1949) as a young man realised that none of the people, sciences or religions around him knew the answers to any of the sincere questions he had about life so set off on a journey to find those people left in the world who had real knowledge and truth. He spent many years gaining access to all the secret places usually barred to outsiders such as Mt Athos, Mecca, Sufi temples and Essene monasteries, from Jerusalem to Egypt, but inevitably found his way to Tibet which at that time was cut off from the rest of the world and at a time when Buddhism was flourishing before the Chinese invasion. He managed to get a job as a debt collector for the Dalai Lama which was ideal as it would give him intimate access to all the monasteries to see what they contained. This is what he discovered; When he was 21 years old, he read the works of Madame Blavatsky and took her indications seriously. He traveled to every place she mentioned in The Secret Doctrine, but he found nine out of ten of her references were false. This cost him years of effort and suffering. He then took a job as collector of monastic dues for the Dali Lama, and that gave him access to every monastry in Tibet. "I will truthfully say," Gurdjieff told Orage, "that it is true I discovered extraordinary developments. I did not discover one single being with universal development, only monsters. A particular variety of the monstrous, but with no attainment of objective reason, now more than in the West, only different. I finally arrived in India, at its center of development. I would gladly spare any human being the fruitless efforts I have gone through". - Source: "Gurdjieff and Orage: Brothers in Elysium" By Paul Beekman Taylor

I have read parts of the Philokalia, it is pretty interesting, I have many other Hesychasm texts too like the Ladder of Divine ascent but I haven't got round to reading it yet. The main emphasis seems to be the Jesus Prayer, I would be interested if you have any experiences with this prayer?

A lot of what he said was for teaching purposes to destroy peoples beliefs and attachments, to try to get people to empty their cup and become honest about what they really know and don't know in order to bring back the beginners mind. So he is not so different than many other masters from many other traditions in that regard, yet his methods were often far more fierce and critical. That could be the purpose of what he said about Tibetan Buddhism, to try destroy peoples imaginatory beliefs about it, or it could be that he meant it literally, either way I think it helps encourage the spirit of what the Buddha said about finding out the truth of things for yourself.

I always thought Yoga was aggressive, trying to force things to open never seemed like the correct approach to me

The politicians made a big mistake with their timing of trying to beat the war drums, if they had done it now that the UN report has come out stating explicitly that chemical weapons had been used then they probably would get popular support, but doing it a few weeks ago was stupid considering nobody trusts politicians judgement any more about such issues since Iraq. Really bad judgement on their part, all they had to do was wait a couple of weeks.

Universal development I think means a development of all centres of your being equally harmoniously, so you work on the mind, emotional and physical centres at once. One of Gurdjieffs main criticisms of most of the paths and religions he found was that they would only work or focus on one centre creating lopsided development of the being. What he meant by objective reason... i'm not entirely sure, I don't think I have it I just thought it was an interesting contrast to all the stories of people who have written about Tibet as the ultimate spiritual ShangriLa. But Gurdjieff did have respect for Tibetan Buddhism as he called Padmasambharva one of the few genuine saints to have been in this world, yet the can be a degredation and corruption of the teaching which is worth being wary of.

It is quite a hard law to understand, especially if you get into the mathematics, but it is basically about the movement and transformation of all forces in the universe and the body. One example of this law is the way Christianity developed in that it began with upward momentum and vibration teaching love, but somehow at some point its momentum took a downward turn and ended up with the Inquisition killing and torturing everyone. Its basically saying that at certain points things can devolve instead of evolve, just look at the history of most empires and great nations, most at some point take a dramatic downward turn. The purpose of understanding the law it is that if you are conscious enough to know when these points of downward momentum can occur you can intervene with extra effort or cultivation or a shock to keep the momentum going upward. Ouspensky describes it in most detail in his book "In Search of the Miraculous" "The next fundamental law of the universe is the "Law of Seven" or the "Law of Octaves". In order to understand the meaning of this law it is necessary to regard the universe as consisting of vibrations. In ancient knowledge, the understanding of vibrations is based on the idea of the discontinuity of vibrations. All vibrations in nature do not develop uniformly, but instead develop with periodic accelerations and retardations. The force of the original impulse in vibrations does not act uniformly, but becomes alternately stronger and weaker. The periods of uniform action of the momentum are not equal, and the moments of retardation of the vibrations are not symmetrical. One period is shorter; the other is longer. The law of octaves explains why there are no straight lines in nature. At the moment of the retardation of vibration a deviation from the original direction takes place. Let us assume that a movement begins at "do". It will continue in a straight line through "mi". But a deviation occurs between "mi" and "fa" which causes a change from the original direction. From "fa" through "si", the movement continues in the new direction. Between "si" and "do" the second interval occurs which causes a new change in direction. The next octave gives an even more marked deviation so that the line of octaves may eventually complete a circle. " Page 125 The seven-tone scale is the formula of a cosmic law which was applied to music. In the ascending octave, we will designate the low end "do" and the point at which the vibrations have doubled also as "do". The period between one "do" and the next is divided into seven unequal parts because the frequency of vibrations does not increase uniformly. Page 125 The ratio of the pitch of the notes is as follows: do: 1 re: 9/8 mi: 10/8, or 5/4 fa: 4/3 sol: 12/8, or 3/2 la: 5/3 si: 15/8 do: 16/8, or 2 Page 125 The difference in acceleration is as follows: do -> re: (9/8 : 1) = 9/8 re -> mi: (10/8 : 9/8) = 10/9 mi -> fa: (4/3 : 10/8) = 16/15 [increase retarded] fa -> so: (3/2 : 4/3) = 9/8 so -> la: (5/3 : 3/2) = 10/9 la -> si: (15/8 : 5/3) = 9/8 si -> do: (16/8 : 15/8) = 16/15 [increase again retarded] Page 126 The differences in the pitch of the notes are called intervals. There are three kinds of intervals in an octave: 9/8, 10/9, and 16/15. The smallest interval 16/15 occurs in the places of retardation in the octave. In music, one semitone is found between the following pairs: do-re, re-mi, fa-sol, sol-la, and la-si. A semitone does not exist in the mi-fa and si-do intervals. Page 129 The law of octaves explains many phenomena in our lives: The principle of the deviation of forces The fact that everything in the world is moving and changing In development rises and falls are constantly taking place

Ti you do realise this is the Vedanta forum right? You can call what I'm saying unhelpful top down nonsense if you like but its a pretty fundamental point that both Vedanta and Buddhist masters often repeat that your original nature or Buddha nature is already present right now. So if you are seeking it some time in the future then you won't find it, if you think you have to create it then you will fail. But if you discover what you are now then what you are not will dissolve over time without the glue of identity holding it together.

I'm sorry it disgusts you but for some people it could be one of those most helpful things they have ever heard anyone say, think about the concept of doing loads of practices to become what you already are? isn't the whole concept absurd, as all the practices do is reinforce the seeking that you haven't found what you are looking for, the practice may actualy help maintain the delusion As some of the Zen masters say your practice is meant to fail, it is meant to exhaust you so you give up seeking, then though the giving up of seeking you find. Indeed why are so many people making efforts to realise their spirituality? Efforts may be necessary at some point, all i'm saying is that it is a not a requirement, how can it be if we already are it? Of course it is effortless to be, how else could it be? I have no idea what walking through walls has to do with anything, we are talking about fundamental identity. No because people are always using effort and seeking all the time, not just spiritual seekers but regular folks also are always seeking and aiming for something in the future. Trying to be something or someone. The vast majority of people are trying to be the image their mind has of who they think they should be. If they didn't do that then everyone would be enlightened, but stopping doesn't have to require effort rather it is relinquishment of existing effort through either failure, exhaustion or just realising what it is that you are through changing where your attention is placed. It's not about thinking, that is where most people get stuck

However you are defining "the gap" it is not it. How can that which everything arises in be defined by what arises in it? love and bliss are not necessarily present, it is beyond mind so whatever you say about it is going to be like trying to erect walls around infinite empty space and then saying only that inside the walls is it while ignoring that which is outside. You don't need sustained attention to be what you are, it doesn't require any effort at all to be what you are because you already are it innately.

It doesn't have to be a battle. You don't have to make yourself go with the flow or be present or any of that if it doesn't feel appropriate to you at that moment. You have been conditioned your whole life to be a certain way, but if you then get into spirituality you might then try to condition yourself another way, which can just be another different manifestation of ego ie you trying to make yourself the way you think you should be, which can create draining conflicts. But I understand the position of being caught in two worlds or sitting on two stools if that is what you mean, nobody I know in my old regular life is interested in this stuff, although there are many people who are who I met after i got into it. But really you don't need other people to be interested or even separate normal and spiritual life from each other, even if it seems like you do. There is a thing Adyashanti talks about how whatever you resist persists, so if you resist getting caught up in competition and the flows of regular life then that resistance can be the exact thing which keeps you stuck, it doesn't mean that you indulge in it but he says when you are willing to be deluded and taken and put to sleep by life then there is the possibility of becoming free of it. Maybe his teachings could give you some clarity.

From my current perspective the potential for hell is the same as the potential for heaven, but enlightenment isn't concerned with either

If you don't admit your societies problems they can't be tackled, they have been talking about this a lot on the world service due to the court case today and just about everyone agreed there is a big problem of people being too ashamed to report rapes in India, it happens in other countries too but when it is entrenched in the culture you have a big problem.

I wouldn't do that form of meditation again. I have had times in my life of feeling no emotion after doing practices, doing binural beats may have tried to bring you somewhere your mind didn't want to go so it sets up defences and shuts down a bit to protect you, the body contracts under such stress so you are less in touch with it. I wouldn't worry too much though as it sounds like a stress and anxiety reaction rather than something more serious and about the ejaculation part if you are 17 I wouldn't worry. The best thing for libido is probably just regular exercise like jogging in nature, then it might be useful to do something to challenge your thoughts which are causing the anxiety. One line of enquiry is to just ask yourself the question: what specific thoughts and beliefs are causing your suffering and then examine the assumptions and conclusions of those thoughts to see if they are really true.