The Way Is Virtue

Hi robmix. Dr. Kirkland would have to answer those questons. I just posted the link to his paper up for interest's sake since it directly relates to this whole idea of 'Western Taoism'. I think that Kirkland's main point in his paper is really that one can't just simply read a few ancient books and such on Taoism and then reasonably expect to understand what Taoism is really all about. That point at least seems reasonable enough to me. I personally don't necessarily agree with some of his other ideas expressed in that paper, although he does bring up some interesting ideas in there. I think one important difference between Taoism and some of the other world religions is that much of Taoism until very recent times has been based on fairly closed traditions of secrecy and oral teaching from teacher to disciple, and also many Taoist writings used a lot of deliberate symbolism and such, as many of these writings were not intended for the uninitiated to be able to understand. Without the guidance of a knowledgeable teacher (a student often had to be approved and initiated by a teacher first, from what I understand) much that is contained in Taoists writings is not easily understandable even by those who are fluent in Chinese and have some general background knowledge in Taoism. When one adds in other factors like the large cultural differences that existed between China and the West, and the different ways of communicating and writing and such in ancient times in China, it would seem quite a stretch indeed that your average Westerner could read some translations of a few of these ancient texts and have a realistic idea of not only just what those texts were really all about, but also be able to reasonably extrapolate from there and really know what the full extent of all the views and practices of the people who wrote those texts were. That is quite a huge reach when one thinks about it that way, no? . There are a number of Taoist teachers who are teaching Western students these days, both in the East and in the West, so there are no doubt more opportunites for Westerners to learn from a (hopefully) authentic Taoist teacher these days than there were say 15 years ago, I think. Whether any given Taoist teacher is teaching authentic Taoism is another matter though, and it will be pretty much up to the interested student to do their own research and make their own judgement calls in that respect.

Hi Mark. I was talking about Dr. Kirkland's point of view as expressed in his paper which I provided the link to. I personally think nowadays at least some in the West are starting to get a somehwat better idea of what Taoism is about, but I do think there are still a lot of very questionable assumptions being made by many in the West yet, as well.

I think Dr. Russell Kirkland's view is more along the lines that the common Western view of Taoism does not have a whole lot to do with the actual Taoism that has been practiced in China for thousands of years. Here is a link to a transcript of a talk Dr. Kirkland gave on this topic in 1997. Of course this is Dr. Kirkland's opinion on the matter, and he is himself a Westerner, and this is from 14 years ago, but a lot of what he is saying still seems to be of at least some relevance today. This is an academic presentation so it takes a little bit of effort to wade through it all , but I think it is an interesting read anyway. The Taoism Of The Western Imagination And The Taoism Of China: De-Colonializing The Exotic Teachings Of The East

An online version of Harold Roth's translation of the Nei Ye can currently be found here: http://www.stillness.com/tao/neiyeh.txt Harold Roth also has a book on this, entitled "Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei-yeh) and the Foundations of Taoist Mysticism" The Nei Ye is thought by scholars to have originated in the 4th Century BCE,so it is an interesting text to compare to the Tao Te Ching. There are a number of similar concepts in the two works. The Nei Ye describes various principles and theory and practicing tips in regards to using stillness meditation for the purposes of 'cultivating tao'.

I don't know how much pain you are in, but if it is not really bad, have you considered just cutting down somewhat on the amount of vicodin that you are taking? Maybe less vicodin would allow you to do your qigong more effectively. I've never taken vicodin though so I am just basing this on your statement that it is affecting your qigong. P.S. If it were me I would probably just continue doing whatever qigong practice I could manage regardless of whether I was feeling much going on or not. Maybe that is another option... Either way, the pot thing doesn't sound like the best choice all things considered... From what you describe, you have been doing very well. No need to risk messing things up...

Thanks for the kind thoughts and for your insights manitou. Through sharing our ideas, thoughts, and experiences we can maybe help each other in some ways to make more sense of things and our experiences and to hopefully gain some insights into our selves. Maybe that is what life is at least in some part about. We each take our own approach and do things in our our own way, and we interact with others through the course of our lives. I agree with you that we all seem to be working towards the same thing, if one looks beneath the surface clutter. Very interesting idea about the fast and slow approaches. I had not really thought about things that way before. Lots to consider in this respect in regards to all the various practices and approaches that exist out there. Best to everyone, and keep on smiling...

Hi Manitou. Maybe this is a good question for people to consider then. What makes Taoism be 'Taoism' and which separates it from everything else? I think a good comparison might be to compare to Buddhism. In some ways Buddhism is similar to Taoism. Buddhism has both religious aspects and self cultivation aspects, as Taoism does. Putting aside the surface differences in beliefs and religious practices, I wonder if there is anything else that makes them distinct from each other? They both have the spiritual/self cultivation aspect. Could it be just the difference in views and approach which makes them different? Other religious traditions also have self cultivation traditions as well. Maybe they really are not all that different under the surface. The surface religious beliefs are different but inside they all deal with spiritual needs and spiritual/self refinement, I am thinking. Maybe all not so different after all?

Decided that either way, what name is used for what people practice probably isn't too much of an issue. If what people are doing anywhere in the world is of value to them, and they want to call it Taoism, that is quite OK with me. It seems to me people are going to do and practice what they want anyway, regardless of what name they use for what they do. Most Westerners who are interested in such things seem content enough with some martial arts or qigong, maybe a bit of meditation for relaxation and peace of mind, and maybe some feng shui or divination practices for personal amusement, and they madse read a few taoists texts for interest's sake, so that's likely what will continue to spread in the West, as it already has been spreading for some time now. It seems to me that is probably quite enough already for most people's interests in the Western part of the world anyway. Calling such practices Taoism won't take anything away from those who want to delve deeper into the spiritual tradition, it seems to me.

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Hi Stig. By 'system' I was referring not to a collection of practices, whatever one might actually be practicing, but the 'underlying essence' which makes all the different Taoist traditions and their practices be considered as part of a system called Taoism. My thinking is, that when the emphasis in the practice is on this underlying essence, it is Taoism, when this emphasis is not on this it seems to me one is just doing various practices, but not practicing Taoism. That is not to say that doing some of these practices just for their own sake doesn't have benefits, but if one is practicing Taoism then that underlying essence would have to be the main focus, no? Otherwise what do you see as the defining characteristics that make Taoism be Taoism and not just health exercises and tools for enhancing everyday life, or which separate it from say Buddhism? Sure some of the practices don't have to be unique to Taoism and Taoists, such as maybe I Ching divination or Feng Shui, or health or medical qigong, or some internal martial arts, but there are certain practices that seem to be unique to Taoism and which require an accomplished teacher in Taoism to be able to learn them from. To me this would be more of all the spiritual and religious type of practices and self cultivation practices that are unique to Taoism, many of which are passed on only from master to disciple. Some of these traditions/practices may also require special ceremonies or rituals or a transmittal of some sort performed by the master to be able pass on the method to the student. In such a case one is not going to learn such a practice from anyone except an accomplished teacher of that tradition. I guess the question that arises then is, is it merely the practices and point of view that make Taoism be Taoism, or is there something unique underlying these practices that distinguish Taoism from Buddhism and Hinduism, etc.? Sure maybe at the highest levels of achievement they are all essentially the same, but until one gets to that point, is there anything unique to Taoism other than just a point of view and what is practiced? If I practice Buddhist meditation am I a Buddhist and if I practice Taoist meditation am I a Taoist? Or does there have to be more than that? This is what I am trying to get at with this idea of an underlying essence that makes these various practices fal into a system that we call Taoism.

Hi bamboo. I don't have direct experience with spontaneous movement other than minor stuff, but I know some teachers do say that one should not intentionally try to invoke spontaneous movements in qigong practice, and if they do arise to make a conscious effort to stop them or at least keep them under control, if possible. Other teachers seem to encourage it, so I don't know which is the better approach. I can say that in my own zhan zhuang practice this has not arisen, so it might be at least somewhat a factor of expectation, but I am not sure. Maybe some people are just more prone to spontaneous movement than others in zhan zhuang and qigong.

Hey Thanks Sloppy. I had some dust on my back and I think you got some of it off. *TWIV reaches over to pat Sloppy of the back.* *TWIV then reaches over and pats Ya Mu, 5ET, and Blasto on the back, as he can see a bit of dust there as well.* *Allan appears out of thin air again and says, "If you only knew how to cultivate complete stillness properly you would none of you have even one speck of dust on your backs!"* *TWIV ponders this for a moment and then says, "Are we not all brothers and sisters in tao? Maybe we can help each other in this respect if we only have the heart and spirit to do so.", and then turns to go on his way... * Best to everyone... .

Well, at least in your own mind anyway.

Good points. Regarding discussion, of the taoists I have known and do know, non were/are particularly against discussion. Most partake of it themselves. Discussion can sometimes be quite helpful in passing general ideas and concepts and methods and experiences along, and in determining how well someone understands a concept, etc. However, there is a time for discussion and a time for practice. I think it is really when the time for practice starts to suffer that there starts to be a problem, but this is something that we all could no doubt improve on at least somewhat.

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In Chinese culture, including Taoism, there is a strong emphasis placed on students giving full respect to their teachers, but it is also implied that the teachers should be worthy of respect and what they are teaching should be valid and authentic teachings. Also, respect for elders and one's teachers is considered very important in Confucianism, which appears to have had a very strong impact on all Chinese culture, including Taoism. However, one would expect a teacher of a genuine spritual tradition such as Taoism, for example, who genuinely has the best interests of others in mind should certainly not be all put off, or get angry, or start making derogatory statements to a person for simply asking for some clarification or for some further substantiation about something the teacher has claimed, or for asking for specific details about the tradition the teacher is claiming to teach. No one is perfect, but if one gets strong negative reactions from a supposed master or teacher for just asking a few questions, you can be sure that something is very wrong. Yes, a student should be respectful to their teachers, but it is also a given that teachers should be respectful to everyone else as well. If they are not, then one should really wonder about what such a person is really representing. Taoism is at its core a spiritual cultivation tradition, and if the teacher is showing a lot of ego and arrogance, and tends to show disdain to anyone just for asking some questions or for inquiring about specific details of the teacher's claimed lineage/tradition, etc., then it is obvious something is very wrong. I have said this before, but it bears repeating again. In my experience, just because someone can display some mastery over qi such as having some internal martial arts skill or qigong healing abilities, etc., by no means does it mean that such a person is necessarily any sort of spritual master. If a person is frequently showing a lot of ego in their actions and words, and being quite negative or dismissive towards anyone who merely asks questions or who points out that something the teacher has said does not appear to be entirely correct, then for certain something is very wrong. In my view, at the very core of almost any spiritual tradition is the idea of giving less importance to one's personal wants and desires, subduing the ego, cultivating virtue, being of assistance and service to others and society as a whole where one can, etc. If a given 'spiritual' teacher does not embody much of these priciples, at least to some extent, and instead is quite the opposite in some ways, then indeed something is very wrong there. Therefore, I think it is important for a potential student to initially ask various questions of a potential teacher about their views and the tradition they are claiming to represent, and if the teacher starts immediately becoming very negative and defensive, or angry, or dismissive, then I personally think the student would be well advised to move on and keep looking for another teacher. I would hope that this would be a given, but it seems some people are sometimes quite fixated on certain skills a teacher might be able to display and thus not looking at the big picture, which I think is very important, expecially if a teacher is claiming to be some sort of master of a genuine spritual tradition. Well, I really don't think it is required or even desirable for the teacher of a valid spiritual tradition to try to lure students in by offering things that they think will be attractive to potential students. That is more of the "Tao Incorporated" or "Jesus Incorporated, etc." approach it seems to me, and there is no doubt that those who are mainly interested in making money at this sort of game do that sort of thing, but I guess that is not what you meant here. It is true the teacher should definitely be offering some authentic teachings from an authentic tradition if they are representing themselves as such, and the teacher should be fully open about any questions in regards to the authenticity of what they are teaching as well. If they become annoyed or angry or defensive when a potential student asks questions about such things, then again, something is very wrong, IMO. I have seen a lot of different teachers over the years, and learned from some, put have passed on quite a few as well, for reasons such as I have described above. IMO, potential students should consider such things carefully and be prepared with various questions when they go to see any given teacher, so they can try to get some idea where the teacher is really coming from. A genuine teacher of a genuine tradition will be very open towards inquiries, as long as it is done in a respectful way of course, and will welcome sincere questions from anyone, as a true spiritual teacher will genuinely have the best interests of others in their heart, and they will therefore welcome sincere interest and inquiry about what the are teaching. A true spiritual teacher will be somewhat like a breath of fresh air and sunshine to a sincere potential student, but if they are actually more of the opposite then I thnk one should consider carefully why exactly that might be. Best to all seekers...

Hi 5ET. In all sincerety, it really seems to me that both you and Ya Mu are arguing with your imaginations. You have been ascribing words and actions and motivations to me that have little to no relation whatsoever to what I have been saying and what I was commenting on, where you could have instead just simply asked me for clarification if you weren't sure what I saying. At no point did I say that I have a problem with the idea of destiny in taoism. Much of the divination and related practices in taoism are indeeed concerned with such things. I did originally say I was interested in hearing more about your views on destiny and karma in taoism, and more about where you were coming from in regards to this. What I was commenting on was your following statement: "Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth." My comment was that although this may be the case in some taoist traditions, I don't believe that this is the main goal in all forms of taoist meditation (keeping in mind that various different traditions exist/existed in taoism as a whole). My understanding is that in at least some taoist traditions which place emphasis on the practice of internal alchemy meditation and stillness meditation (quanzhen traditions, for example), the highest goals seem to about spiritual transformation and liberation (spiritual immortality), and at the highest level something that is sometimes referred to as 'merging with tao', which is said to be an indescribable state that can only be experienced after achieving a very high level in one's cultivation, as I understand it anyway. I brought this up because I thought people who might be new to the various views and practices of taoism as a whole might get the wrong impression from what you said. Also, I thnk your use of the term 'spirit guides' was prone to some confusion as well, as it really seemed you were referring to the personal kind of spirit guides that people sometines speak of that provide guidance and assistance and protection to one in dreams and spiritual practices and the like, as opposed to 'high level' spiritual beings/deities/gods and such. This is why I was asking for clarifiaction on what you were saying and on where you were coming from with that. That is really all I have been saying, in a nutshell. I don't really have anything further to comment on this at this point, as I don't believe it would be productive. All the best to you 5ET.

Good grief. I have not been implying or saying that there are not high level spritual beings or masters or whatever one wants to call them, just pointed out that the terms being used were likely to cause misunderstanding. I see no point to continue repeating myself any further. Best to you, Ya Mu.

Hi Ya Mu. Just saw this reply now. To think that all this is because I asked for clarification on some statements made by 5ET that made a broad generalization about taoist goals and pracitces. A few last comments: I don't have a problem with the concept of destiny in taoism. I do doubt that this is a major theme and goal in all forms of taoist meditation however, as I have stated from the beginning, and which I was asking for clarification on. I didn't realize that 5ET was referring to high level spiritual masters or beings when he used the term 'spirit guide'. 'Spirit guide' is usually used in a new age or similar context or shamnistic context of a personal spirit guide that is dedicated to guiding and protecting someone in their spiritual endeavours. This usually does not refer to high level spriritual beings which one may encounter in spiritual cultivation practices however. Likewise terms like ascended masters and raising energy vibrations are fairly common new age terms. Like many other people, I have read up some on taoist history, so I am aware about some of the history of how various taoist traditions arose and changed and branched and merged and disappeared etc. No need to rehash such details I don't think, and no need to imply that this is something I need to learn about. Best to everyone...

I think you hit the nail on the head. When I hear the term 'spirit guide' I think of it in the sense that is most commonly used, as one's personal spirit guide that guides and watches over one in dreams and various spiritual experiences and such. The terms 'spirit guide' and 'ascended master' are two quite different terms as far as I am concerned, although both derive from new age terminology so it seems natural that opne would assume that one is referring to the new age concepts of these terms if one uses them. However the term acended masters only popped into the discussion after Ya Mu joined in. Yes, it sure does tend to cofuse matters when people mix new age terms in on a discussion on traditional taoism.