The Way Is Virtue

I actually was replying to you before you deleted your comments but I accidentally hit a key by mistake that caused my reply to get cancelled. Ya Mu, I hear what you are saying and, to clarify, I don't have a problem with the concept of destiny in Taoism, but was expressing doubts that this is a central theme and central goal in taoist meditation from all taoist tradition. Hope that is clearer. I have mnade it clear that I don;t doubt that some traditions may have had that as an important theme in their meditation. Regarding taoist medicine, I really don't know much at all about the various taoist traditions that include it, so I can't really comment further on whether all taoist medicine traditions include the exact same taoist medicine practices and views, other than I'd be surprised if taoist medicine practices and views from the various taoist traditions were all exactly the same. Either way, that is quite besides the point of my comments which were specifically in regards to stsatements that 5ET made, as I would thnk is clear. Best to you.

Hi 5ET. I was asking for clarification about statements you have made. That is all. I thnk that was pretty clear. My personal experience is really not a factor in that at all, that I can see. I have expressed my personal view about the subject several times above. I am always interested in discussing taoism, but have no real interest in participating in arguments. Best to you.

Hi 5ET. I most certainly am not "questioning your authority" and I think it was pretty clear that I was actually just asking for clarification on some of your specific comments such as "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", which I have sincere doubts about beoing a valid generalization about Taoism, as I have previously explained. You have avoided my questions above, and that is fine as it is your perogative, although I do find your other statements above more than a little odd. You clearly are on the defensive, and that is quite understandable since you have made statements that you do not seem to be able to back up. Your appeal to unquestionable authority by virtue that you have studied some 'taoist' tradition or traditions isn't really helping clarify anything at all, in my opinion. At any rate, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive at all however, as I was just looking for clarification on what you said previously. I think it was pretty clear that this is what I was doing, and I think you do know that, despite what you say above. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that those who practice internal alchemy meditation do not have encounters with spiritual beings of one sort or another, as I would actually expect that they probably do, but that is quite different from the idea that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.". I have never heard of the goal of taoist internal alchemy meditation described as such but, as I said, I am certainly no expert on Taoism so I am open to learning more if someone can back up what they are saying with something substantial. Again, I am not doubting that such practices may exist. There is always more to learn, no? Anyway, no worries, 5ET. I have said what I wanted to say, so all is fine. Best to you.

Hi Ya Mu. It is one thing to say that in the particular medical qigong tradition that you learned that the concept of destiny is important, but it would be quite another thing to generalize from this and say "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", or the like, if you see what I mean. Also, for you to say "this is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine." is a generalization that I would also have some doubts about, but would not have a problem at all if you had said "this is the highest aspect of the Taoist medicine tradition that I learned and practice.". Two quite different things. As I have mentioned, I understand there are various traditions with different practices, and some teachers learned practices from various traditions such as Taoism and Buddhism and Chinese medicine and other traditions and passed some of these varied practices on to their students, and it may be difficult to pin down in many cases exactly which practices and views originated from which exact traditions. My questions to 5ET were about the broad generalization about traditional taosim that 5ET made in regards to this. I sincerely doubt that it is a valid statement to make. I'd be interested to hear exactly what 5ET is basing that statement on. I think most people who have at least some knowledge of Taoism and its history would agree that making broad sweeping generalizations about Taoism or Taoist practices based on what one has learned from one or even a few teachers is probably not a good idea. I just wouldn't want people who may be new to Taoism to start getting the wrong idea. Also, would be interested to hear about the exact Taoist tradition that 5ET is basing his statement on. Always interested to learn more about Taoism.

Hi 5ET. I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea here, so I decided to comment on this to try to understand where you are coming from with these statements. While it is certainly possible that some Taoist sects may have practices that involve spirit guides (there have been a number of different Taoist traditions with different practices), I have doubts that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplosh their destiny" and that "this is the whole point of meditation". For example, Taoist traditions that practice stillness meditation and internal alchemy meditation certainly don't have a goal of getting in touch with spirt guides in meditation to work out their destiny. Which Taoist sects are you referring to that practice Taoist meditation for the purpose of getting in touch with spirit guides to help them accomplish their destiny? I am aware of one sect of Taoism that did practice 'spirt travel' in meditation but they were accompanied by their real world teacher when learning these practices. Also, I know of 'Orthodox' taoist practice that involve working with various spirits/Deities, but have not previously heard of anything to do with Taoist meditation that has the goal of getting in touch with spirit guides to work out one's purpose or destiny on Earth. I'm not saying I doubt that these practices exist, but just pointing out that this doesn't appear to be a very common practice at all, although I am certainly no expert on Taoism. I would be interested to hear about which Taoist traditions practice this sort of thing however. [Edit]: I'd also be interested to hear a bit more about what you mean about the concepts of destiny and karma as related to Taoism. What Taoist traditions are you speaking of here?

Changed my mind. On second thought this wasn't likely a line of questioning that would lead to anything much productive. Questioning may sometimes be helpful but meditation is probably better.

Interesting... So many different perspectives. Much to consider. Thanks for the comments.

Ok, that is of course a given, but I was looking for something beyond the obvious.

Ok, good points. Some might say that really there is no attainment and no destiny, but I do hear what you are saying. These may be just different perspectives of a larger whole. Some say that some teachers may even be able to guide others who are ready beyond all unknowing, but I really don't know one way or the other. I do my best to keep an open mind to all different perspectives, but I think our individual perspectives invariably color how we see things, no matter how open we try to be. All each and every one of us can do is do our best. Times and circumstances change but I don't know that poeple really change all that much overall, although on the surface it may well seem that way. Sometimes I think that what takes our attention is possibly a message to ourself, although we may have to really work at it and stay aware to really find the meaning. Other times I think that I think too much. No doubt everyone is trying in their own way although it often may not seem like it.

I personally think there is a good deal of confusion by many these days regarding the concept of what is considered 'spiritual' and the various practices from various 'spiritual' traditions and whatnot that people do. I have known people who seem to have a great deal of mastery over qi, and who can demonstrate some fairly impressive abilities in internal martial arts, or in external qi projection and healing, for exanple, but I wouldn't consider many of these people particularly 'spiritual', at least from my own personal subjective perspective anyway. That is not to say I wouldn't be interested in learning from some of these people, but I wouldn't confuse this with 'spirituality' however. Many people seem to think that if you can just meet the right teacher that can help you to quickly open up your energy pathways and energy centers, or that if you just learn the right techniques, that you will automatically in short order become quite spiritually advanced. Frankly I do also see a number of teachers as well who, in my opinion, seem to take this attitude that because they have some mastery over qi, or because they have opened some energy centers somewhat or whatever, that they are fairly 'spiritually advanced'. My experience is that this is really not ncessarily the case at all. Many of these teachers do not seem to behave in any way that I would view as anything particularly 'spiritual' and often there is a lot of very obvious ego behind their words and actions. I think that there is a common misconception amongst many in modern sociiety that if a person can display some mastery over internal energy or some special abilities that they somehow must be quite spiritually advanced, or spiritual masters, or the like. I do think this view is at least somewhat related to our strong focus on material things, and strong focus by many these days on themselves and on their own personal gain. To me, all this is the antithesis of sprituality. This is just my own personal view and of course I could be well off the mark, but to me true sprituality is really about lessening the grip of the ego and learning to be more selfless and more aware of how to be of assistance and service to all. It seems to me that when one looks at the core message of almost any spiritual tradition that this is the main message that is being put across, although it may be expressed in different ways. Taking the focus of attention away from the self and focusing more on what is best for the whole of which we are all a part of. So, for me, sprituality is about lessening the grip of the ego and giving less importance to one's personal wants and desires, and moving one's focus to what remains when that is done. If that is not any given teacher's main focus then, in my view, what they are teaching would seem to have little to do with spirituality. Various spiritual traditions may have various practices that are taught in those traditions, but in my view such things are more just tools and stepping stones to help one with the true goal. The main work that needs to be done is more to do with learning selflessness which, said another way, has much to do with cultivating virtue. If the main goal is not on promoting selflessness and lessening the mighty grip of the ego, and being of service to others then these various practices aren't likely going to magically make one any more of a 'spiritual' person than what they are. However, as I have heard said by some, many people these days are not really interested in such things. This is not what people are intersted in hearing about. Instant gratification and the advancement and promotion of the ego are pretty hot items these days however. Most of us can't likely change the world too much, but we can work on changing ourselves. That can be very hard work with a lot of tough challenges though, and maybe not so glamorous and exciting. Best to everyone.

I think this is an important point. I think one should also keep in mind however that according to the theory both males and females deplete positive jing as well as qi through ejaculation/menstruation, hence the emphasis on conserving essence in various traditions, and the various approaches and techniques that are used in different traditions to minimize/prevent this. There seem to be a fair number of males who have caused themselves problems trying certain special sexual conservation techniques. In my personal view people should not be attempting such things without the direct guidance of a knowledgeable and accomplished teacher who can fully assist with any problems that may arise. People should also keep in mind that there are different practices out there and some may really not be so good at all, especially in the long term. It may seem to have short term benefits but the long term benefits may be minimal or non-existent, and it may cause problems in the long term that may be hard to resolve. Regarding conservation of essence, there may be other approaches and methods for women other than what is described as 'cutting the red dragon' on the FYSK site. I believe that such a practice is not meant for the average person living an ordinary life. This sort of practice is meant for someone who wants to devote themselves to internal alchemy practice with the very serious intent of cultivating themselves to a high level. For the average person who just wants to enhance health and maybe increase longevity, or do well in internal martial arts, or who maybe wants to learn medical/clinical external qigong healing and such then such a practice is likely not necessary, I would think. At any rate, in my view one should only attempt to try a technique like cutting the red dragon under the direct guidance of a knowledgeable and accomplished teacher who can fully assist if any problems arise. For myself (a male) I have found that the approach of working on calming the heart/mind (emotions, desires, attachments, and other distractions) and doing regular (you really have to practice every day in my experience) cultivation practice seems to be a good natural approach. This may not be so easy or even very practical for younger people who are interested in living a normal life and raising a family and that sort of thing however, as exorcist mentioned. I agree with exorcist that as one gets older this may be somewhat easier and become more practical to undertake seriously, so there are at least some advantages to getting older. Some sort of mixture of standing and sitting meditation and moving qigong practices, if one has the time for all, seems to be a fairly balanced approach, in my limited experience anyway. It may not be really necessary to practice all three types of pratices though. I don't know. At higher levels it may all begin to merge into one single internal practice whether one is sitting, lying, standing, or walking, but I am a long ways from there yet. Good health to everyone...

Yes, I think exorcist is suggesting that by using certain internal alchemy techniques postmenopausal women can at least potentially with the proper approach and methods restore their vital essence to the point where they regain their menses, and they can then implement the female internal alchemy technique to 'cut the red dragon' to intentionally stop menstruation. This is different than menopause where the menses stops because of decline in vital essence due to aging. In this particular case one's vital essence is continuing to get stronger and stronger through cultivation, and menses is stopped intentionally through a special female internal alchemy technique implemented to conserve vital essence. In certain internal alchemy traditions it is held that males must first learn to 'tame the white tiger' and females must learn to 'cut (chop/slash) the red dragon'. In internal alchemy theory, if one can't conserve their vital essence they will not be able to advance far in their internal alchemy practice. There are different traditions of internal alchemy however so different traditions may have different approaches and practices. This is the general idea anyway... Here are a couple of links for a bit further info on this: Cutting the Red Dragon (FYSK) Inner Alchemy for Women (Master Yuan's site)

Yes, it's always good to get different perspectives!

Hi Twinner. It all sounds reasonable to me. For me, virtue is virtue, so I agree that it won't make any difference what one's tradition or religion is or whatever. The only difference that I could see for what some people seem to be referring to as 'high virtue' would be how it is enacted. A very virtuous person embodies virtue, so virtue is automatic for them. It is not something that they have to think about. They are highly virtuous because it is who they are. They have no ulterior motives for acting virtuously. They are just acting completely naturally and spontaneously. I personally don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that. For the most part we can all recognize a highly virtuous person due to their selfless behaviour, so it seems to me it doesn't have to be anything too esoteric. Well, I don't think I have anything much further to say on the matter. That about sums it up for me.

Ok, I am not speaking of high virtue however, and I wouldn't say I even know what that is. I am speaking of everyday worldy virtue that we all can recognize in others who truly embody it, for the most part. From my own perspective this is where much of the cultivation work starts and where it is done. So we may have a bit of a divergence in views in that respect. I do have little doubt that different traditions may approach this from different sides, so to speak, as you mentioned there is an interplay between the two. Perhaps at least in part that is where the difference lies. A difference in approach. In regards to high virtue, as I mentioned I don't think I am at all in a position to comment on that.

Hi Ya Mu. I agree with what you are saying. One can get an overview of the types of practices and an idea of some of the different views and theories and the like by reading taoist texts, but if one wants to seriously undertake the more advanced practices one really needs an experienced and accomplished teacher. I think this would equally apply to most 'cultivation' systems. One may be able to make some real progress at the lower level practices on their own, but in my view the higher level stuff really does require the guidance and assistance of an accomplished teacher. Regarding virtue, there is no doubt that different traditions and different people will see things somewhat differently. My personal views on virtue are more than a litle shaped by one of my former teachers who empahsized that one can't really expect to make any real progress in higher level self cultivation practices without first really working on cultivating virtue in one's self. Regarding 'Te' as used in writings such as the Tao Te Ching, I agree with others that this seems to be referring to something that is different than worldly virtue, and which seems to be more directly related to the cultivation of 'tao'. I don't claim to understand it beyond that very basic general idea though. On a somewhat related topic, I personally do think that a practical judge of a person's level of spiritual/self cultivation is the degree of virtue they show in all their actions under all circumstances. In my experience how much mastery a person has over qi or whether a person can display any extraordinary abilities doesn't seem to be as much of a true indication of a person's 'spiritual' cultivation level as their ability to act virtuously no matter the situation and circumstances. For example, I have encountered some teachers who could display quite a bit of mastery over qi, but I wouldn't consider studying with them for the purposes of spiritual/self cultivation due to the way they acted from day to day. So in my view, worldly virtue is important not only for self cultivation but also as an indicator of a person's level of cultivation. Of course people can try to fake being virtuous to try to impress others, and there is no doubt that some teachers do this, but over time their true self will show itself, especially under more trying circumstances. Of course there is a definte subjective elecment in trying to make such an evaluation, and each person will have to work from their own value system and faculties of perception, more or less, but if I were to go to the store to purchase a spiritual yardstick, this is the type of spiritual yardstick that I personally would buy. Speaking of cultivation of virtue, I have not the slightest doubt that I personally have a long way to go in this regard. My experience is that the cultivation of virtue is no easy undertaking by any means, and in my view this is where much of the real cultivation work is done. No doubt many will see it differently.

Not all parts seem to be specifically about actual meditation practice, but it would seem to make sense that one has to regulate oneself not only while they are actually sitting in meditation, but also when they are not meditating as well. I guess it wouldn't be so great if one was really calm in meditation but very emotional and distracted and such the rest of the time. I think Roth viewed the chapter content loosely following these lines: ch 1 to 7 - Philosophical and cosmological principles ch 8 to 14 - Techniques and principles for internal cultivation ch 15 to 19 - Benefits of internal cultivation ch 20 to 23 - Techniques and principles for internal cultivation ch 24 to 26 - Summary of internal cultivation and its benefits

Hi Twinner. Best to you....

This is an excerpt from the book 'Opening the Dragon Gate', page 50: "Our ancestral teacher Wang Chongyang said there are five classes of immortals. Ghost immortality is not worthwhile. It is not necessary to talk about human immortals. Earth immortals remain in the world forever. Spiritual immortals go from being into nonbeing. Those who can disappear and appear unfathomably, have embodiment outside the body, and can double their bodies, are called spiritual immortals. Celestial immortals are ranked even higher than spiritual immortals." So, based on that, not sure what the difference is between Human immortals and Earth immortals...

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Changed my mind. Don't think I will have anything much useful to add. The more I look at the translated text the more I see too many unknowns for me... Thought this text might be somewhat less obscure than the Tao Te Ching but it would seem not...

It might help to keep in mind that this text seems to be mainly focused on how to meditate for the purpose of attaining tao, at least that is my impression from reading the whole text. The later passages about aligning the body and whatnot seem fairly consistent with other such passages I have read in other taoist texts regarding meditation. So in this case it would seem one is specifically aiming for stillness of the mind for meditation purposes. There is a concept in various taoist writings regarding meditation about needing to first calm the heart, which is related to calming all the emotions. One would first have to achieve the ability to maintain perfect calm, emotion wise, since an emotion is something that agitates or disturbs the mind regardless of what sort of emotion it is. I don't think I can offer much more beyond these very basic concepts though. The passage about "all the forms of the mind" may refer to a specific concept but off hand I am not sure what exactly is meant there. If I come across something I'll post it up...

Harold Roth's translation is also here: http://www.stillness.com/tao/neiyeh.txt