The Way Is Virtue

Hi Twinner. I think I have mentioned this before, but anyway, I am not aware of any actual practicing Taoists that have said that Taoism is not at all concerned with morality or virtue. However, one should also keep in mind that what is referred to as 'Taoism' has never been one single unified coherent institution. Many widely diverging groups with different roots and goals and approaches and focuses, and with a rather loosely based somewhat nebulous underlying theme have been grouped together and are collectively referred to as Taoism, so it is quite possible that there is some divergence in views in regards to this matter. Of the two main surviving Taoist branches in China today, I believe both put emphasis on being of service to others and the community and society as a whole, and both have various rules and guidelines of conduct for followers as well. I don't believe these rules and guidelnes are in place just to make follower's lives more difficult, but are seen as practical and necessary requirements. Practices and guidelines that help one cultivate virtue are very much a part of these traditions, just as they are in many other religious/spiritual cultivation traditions around the world. I personally believe this is for very practical and specific reasons. I think those who downplay or ignore this part of the traditions are missing an important aspect. Perhaps it is because in the Modern world, and especially in the West, Religion and its associated views and practices are considered by many to be superstitious and such, and many people thus naturally tend to want to discard any such 'superstitious' aspects. Where I see the problem being is some people may read a few texts such as the Tao Te Ching and perhaps a few other Taoist texts and then attempt to draw very definite conclusions about what they believe is being expressed in those texts, and also about specific concepts within the texts, and some may also try to then make wide sweeping conclusions about Taoism in general as well. Many Taoist (and Buddhist, etc.) writings are expressions of practitioner's very deep inner experiences, and I have seem more than one Taoist point out that one shouldn't reasonably expect to begin to truly understand the full depth of what is being said in such texts without having reached such states oneself. That is not to say there isn't value for one to read and try to absorb what they can from such writings, but one's understanding will likely be fairly superficial and one's true understanding can only grow through applying oneself to their own personal cultivation over a long period of time, such that one can then relate these things to actual experience. I understand that some people in the West view texts such as the Tao Te Ching just as 'philosophy', and from that point of view one might expect to be able to analyze and think their way through to a decent understanding of what is being said, but I personally think that this view is more than a little off the mark when it comes to texts like the Tao Te Ching anyway. In many if not most Taoist traditions, one cultivates and studies under the direct guidance of an experienced teacher or teachers, as it is believed that such guidance is essential for making real progress, for all but the most rare and exceptional anyway. That's my two cent's worth on the subject and I do realize that others may and likely do see it differently. Keep smiling. [Edit: added a few more thoughts...}

Marblehead: Interesting about the references to different taoist groups in Chuang Tzu's time and the presence of Buddhism in that time as well. Thanks for the info. I did some searching and apparently one Chinese scholar believes Buddhism was already present in China in the time of Emperor Qin Shi Huang, who was apparently emperor of the state of Qin from 246 BCE to 221 BCE. Emperor Qin Shi Huang is supposed to have banned Buddhism in China (as China existed in his time) during his reign. Here is a link to a brief news article that I found on the Chinese scholar (Han Wei) who is proposing this idea: Buddhism known in Emperor Qin's time Manitou: I haven't read the translations by Lin Yutang, but it sounds interesting. Yes, the Nei Ye is an interesting text for sure. This form of stillness meditation as an important form of self cultivation has continued on to this day in at least some of the Quanzhen Dao traditions. The Purity and Stillness Classic (Purity and Stillness Classic Translation) is thought to have been written around the 8th century CE, and is considered an important text in the Quanzhen Dao tradition, and seems very similar in theme to the Nei Ye. P.S. Harold Roth's book on the Nei Ye and related, "Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei-yeh) and the Foundations of Taoist Mysticism (Translations from the Asian Classics)" can be found here: On Amazon and a sample: book sample 2netis: You are welcome. Regarding how far back these traditions of inner cultivation go, some taoists say that these traditions go back as far as seven thousand years or so. One taoist story I have read, regarding the origin of these traditions, states that many thousands of years ago there were highly accomplished spiritual beings on this Earth who were more spiritual than physical. They were highly accomplished in spiritual arts. Over time the tao 'began to recede on Earth' and more mundane people began to take over. The remaining highly evolved spiritual beings passed on some of their knowledge to the people over time. One of descendants of these spiritual beings is supposed to be the Yellow Emperor, for example. This knowledge passed on was supposed to be the origin of the early taoism practices and also early TCM. This Taoist text seems to allude to this as well, and also has a story about the origin of Lao Tzu: The stone tablet in the temple of Laozi I may be offline for the near future. Best to everyone. .

Hi Manitou. I am by no means an expert on Taoist history, but like others here I have read up on it some. I was also a little surprised to learn that there was a long standing tradition of inner or self cultivation in taoism that precedes the advent of formalized Taoism (which also precedes the arrival of Buddhism in China as well), of which the first formalized Taoist tradition on record is attributed as Tianshi Dao (which was a precursor to the still existing Zhengyi Dao Taoism branch), which was supposed to have been formed in the year 142 CE. There certainly seems to be references to inner or self cultivation in the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, but there was another lesser known text called the Nei Ye 內業 (Innner Study), thought by scholars to have originated in the 4th century BCE, which focuses mainly on the proper principles of self cultivation and stillness meditation for the purpose of attaining the way. This text describes the importance of calming the emotions and stilling the mind and maintaining the correct body posture to cultivate oneself for the purpose of attaining the way. This text also contains a number of passages that are very similar in concept to passages found in the Tao Te Ching. Some scholars believe that the Tao Te Ching was actually a compilation of Taoist passages from older taoist texts or oral taoist teachings. The Nei Ye should be of interest to anyone who is interested in older taoist texts like the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, and may help shed some light on some of the passages found in those other texts. I don't know if these teachings were available to just anyone in the times of the Nei Ye, or if they were kept within specific groups of practitioners only. Here is a link to an online translation of the Nei Ye, translated by Harold Roth: Translation of the "Nei Ye" (Inner Study Classic) P.S. There are translations of other taoist texts at this link: Some Taoist Texts Translations .

Hi Non. Keep in mind that your TCM professor is relating his own biases and opinions and interpretations in much of what he says. TCM doesn't support or not support duality or anything along those lines, but it must work within the confines and laws and ways of this dualistic world, just as everything else in this world does. That is all. TCM is a way of helping people with their health. Focus on that. Why are you trying to read more into it than that, I wonder? Maybe it would be helpful for you to focus more on just the methods and theory of TCM that you are being taught, and try not to let others opinions or your own opinions and ideas get in the way of that too much. Each teacher adds their own slant to what they are teaching. Understand that different teachers may express things somewhat differently. Learn what is useful and important to using and implementing TCM, but understand that one never stops learning and you will no doubt have other teachers throughout the years who will help you expand on your knowledge. You certainly don't have to accept everything any given teacher is saying, but it is always good to keep an open mind and listen as sometimes our own personal views and opinions may be limiting us from further or deeper understanding. I don't know your exact situation, but you seem to be more than a little wound up and stressed out right now, so maybe try to get away from it all for periods of time where you can and just get out in nature or whatever and relax and enjoy. Long walks in nature are always good. At any rate, do something that will help you to relax. Try not to take things so seriously as well. Interacting with others in social activities is a good way to release stress as well...

Hi Buck. Sounds good. Not sure if you are still checking this thread, but just thought I'd try to clarify what I said previously a little further. I think taoism or any other 'ism' is not so much about which particular practices one does, or even so much about what one believes or thinks, etc., as all springs from the same source (or source that is not a source ). Although there are many different outward practices and methods, the inner experience is what matters, and is what is common, IMO. However, many people these days are deep inside their heads, but being such is all within the domain of the ego and thus, in my understanding, is not really the cultivation of tao, or self cultivation, or spiritual cultivation, or whatever one wants to call it. It is for this reason that 'traditional' cultivation paths (I'm struggling for words here ) do have certain specific approaches and practices and, yes, guidelines and rules, to help carefully guide one from the domain of the ego to the domain that is not a domain, or realm that is beyond realms, or the truth that is not speakable, so to speak. There are no definites, but it might help to think of various paths as sets of stepping stones that lead one not along a path, but incrementally allow one to release the tight hold of the ego and to begin to directly experience that which is beyond the realms of ordinary thought and perception, and which is beyond duality. So if this is the case, one could analyze and think and ponder and imagine till the cows come home, but one would still be fully inside their head. It seems the sages of old didn't sit around pondering and thinking and analyzing so much as they focused on ways or practices to release the powerful grip of the ego and its associated tight control and restriction over our 'thought' and perception and our experience, etc. Also, this would also seem to imply that one wouldn't necessarily have to follow any particular path to cultivate tao, and Buddha apparently also found his own way, but it would seem most people need at least some assistance and guidance in this endeavor, if not a whole lot of assistance and guidance. It seems the ego has an endless supply of tricks up its sleeves. This all again, is just my own personal view though, and no doubt many would see it differently. In my view, all that each and everyone of us can do is proceed however we think is best and in whichever way seems to resonate with us personally. Some might say that just living our life is a meditation in itself, so from that perspective one is perhaps already on a path of a sort, although I personally don't know one way or another. Are we lost in a sea of endless ignorance, or are we on a purposeful journey? Is the question even answerable? Perhaps not with the mind, but possibly through other means. Some people are inclined to address this with faith, some prefer to ignore the question altogether, and some prefer to try to seek an answer. For that reason some choose to align themself with a specifc tradition with its associated specifc practices and views and rules and guidelines, in hopes of answering some of the nagging questions or perhaps in hopes of at least somewhat bettering their understanding or their situation, or maybe in hopes of bringing more of a sense of purpose and meaning to their life. One other point on Taoism for anyone who may be wondering or confused about all the various different practices in taoism, and why some approaches and practices may seem to be very different. The actual taoist practices have evolved over many centuries as well as branched off in various directions. Some branches or offshoots of taoism might be considered by some to not be taoism at all, or to be inferior practices, although there may be those who refer to some of these particular offshoots or set of practices as Taoism or Taoist. I believe the same exists for Buddhism as well and likely for many other traditions. These sorts of things certainly add to the total confusion about what is taoism in the West, and probably also in the East as well.

If you have read some about Taoism then you are probably aware that there are various formalized Taoist traditions that are considered to be part of the overall Taoist tradition as a whole, and which do have many beliefs and rules of conduct, etc. that go hand in hand with the particular traditions, and there are also various lossely based cultivation traditions that may not strictly belong to any formalized Taoist group, that consider themselves to be taoist as well. I am not aware of any traditional Taoist ever saying that taoism is about following your owne personal tao or anything much resembling that however. That is more of a western new age kind of pop taoism concept from what I have seen anyway. Whether one belongs to a formal taoist group or organization or whether one practices taoism on one's own, tha main idea seems to be about aligning oneself and cultivating oneself with the natural laws and ways of this world and the cosmos, etc., so as to bring oneself more in alignment with 'tao'. One does not do this by doing whatever they feel like but by cultivating and controlling and refining themselves so as to open themselves more and more to these natural ways over time. Cultivating oneself and following certain moral and conduct guidelines certainly seems to be part of many traditional Taoist tradition as far as I can gather. In China and in some other Asian countries, Taoism is considered to be a religion, although some traditions in Taoism were not at all what we would consider to be a formalized religion, but more of a spiritual cultivation tradition. Since there are various traditions that are considered to be Taoist traditions, you may see a lot of variation in the actual practices for any given tradition, but the general idea still seems to be about spiritual or mentaland spiritual cultivation in such a way as to align oneself more and more with tao, the true natural way. Taoism is not just a philosophy as some in the west seem to believe, or want to make it. From what I have seen, in the true Taoist traditions it is much more about self cultivation or spiritual cultivation and serving others than it is about one just doing one's own thing or whatever. This is just my personal understanding though based on my own limited experience so take this for what it is worth to you. Best to you in your journey.

A question for TCM type people. Anyone have a list or link to a list of which meridians pass through which specific fingers and toes? When I look at meridian charts I can see that some meridians do end up or start at certain toes or fingers, but sometimes it is hard to see clearly (at least on the meridian charts I have). I guess some meridians end at a finger or toe and another meridian also starts where the other meridian ends? If anyone knows of a fairly concise list that lists the exact relationship between the fingers and toes and meridians, that would be good. Just trying to relate some of what I feel in meditation to actual meridians, but sometimes its hard to see in my meridian charts which specific toe or finger a particular meridian ends up or starts at.

Hi Sifuufi. What do you suppose he means by "the gesturer and the gesturee."? Is he talking about using mudras to cause effects in someone else, or what exactly?

Hi Franklin. I did mention that as well previously in this thread. I have also seen the term used by some to describe special exercises in bagua and xing i for building internal strength/power as you described, and also used to describe tai ji qigong routines as well. Many of these types of exercises don't appear to be all that different from movements that are contained within the internal martial arts forms already, the main difference being that these movements are done more repetitively, but sometimes there are some different movements and stretches thrown in there as well. Some teachers just refer to them as supplementary exercises or supplementary qigong exercises. I guess the bottom line is the person looking to learn a system needs to be aware of these different usages and do a little investigation to see what all is really being taught in any particular system, to see if that meets their needs.

It is often a matter of what a person has personal experience with, I believe. I also have not done well with qigong practices that use visualization or special breathing, but some people seem to do well with those approaches.

Hi bodyoflight. If you like, nei gong is a specialized form of internal energy cultivation. There may be similarities in some ways to kundalini and yoga and pranayama but I have not studied or practiced those traditions so I can't comment too much on that. As has been pointed out here, various teachers may use the term nei gong differently so it is hard to make definitive statements about it, at least from my perspective anyway. My former teacher used the term nei gong to describe special internal cultivation practices that aren't necessarily the same as internal alchemy practices which also has different traditions with different roots. There certainly seem to be correspondences to at least some of the energy centers spoken of in yogic traditions and in Chinese internal cutivation traditions, from what I can see. All I can say is they are different traditions that no doubt have at least some differences, and which may have different purposes as well. Regarding nei gong, some of the abilities that my former teacher described that can be attained through nei gong practice are things like having the ability to jump up into high tree brqanches or onto a roof of a building, for example. I know most people would assume that such things are the just fables, but my former teacher seemed to believe that such things were indeed possible through special nei gong practices. I personally have never seen anyone do that though.

Hi Gerard. I believe your description of qigong practices is a bit too narrow. There are certainly qigong practices that don't use visualization or rhythmic movement, and some forms of qigong practice do use special and deliberate breathing techniques somewhat along the lines of what is done in pranayama such as varying the length of the inhale compared to the exhale and varying the time one holds the breath between inhale and exhale, etc., although I am not aware of any qigong practices that just breath in or out through one or the other nostril like they do in pranayama, but chances are there may be some forms of qigong that do that too. Also some forms of qigong may sometimes deliberately use more rapid or forced breathing as well I believe for special purposes such as some types of hard style qigong. There is no question that it is hard to make concrete statements about qi gong or nei gong as there are so many different traditions and influences. Taoist practices apparently drew from shamanic practices and other ancient practices and taoist and buddhist practices were often influenced by each other in China as well, and so there are many variations.

So, did this teacher explain what exactly he means by that?

Thanks!

Roger that.

Hi Red Phoenix. I don't think the issue is so much about masters or anyone else wanting to be right, but just people expressing what they have learned and understand from whatever tradition or traditions they have learned from. I think most people do understand that sometimes terms tend to get used differently by people from different backgrounds and traditions, although in some cases it is indeed just due to people having incorrect or incomplete information.

Well, I think some Chinese qigong teachers are now referring to their health qigong systems as medical qigong although it may or may not include external qi healing. Not saying it is right or wrong, just that it seeems it is starting to be used that way. It seems the term has continued to evolve somewhat from its original usage as external qi emitting in clinical use. Language has a way of constantly evolving, and it is not uncommon for those who know or learned the original usage of a term to be somewhat annoyed when people start to use the term in some way that diverges from the original meaning. It certainly can lead to some confusion though.

Hi Ken. I know for certain that at least with a former teacher of mine who was a traditional Chinese from China, and who had studied various practices from various teachers in both China and Hong Kong, that he used the terms of qigong and nei gong differently (actually he used terms that sound like 'hay gong' and 'loy gong', if I remember the Cantonese terms and pronunciation correctly, since his main dialect was Cantonese), but when he spoke of nei gong he was referring to very special internal cultivation practices and some of the special abilities that people who practice nei gong can develop. I also know that he practiced a special form of nei gong, as I saw him practicing it on a number of occasions, and it was not what most people would think of when they refer to qigong, but he did not teach that publically. So, at least some native Chinese (he was born in the 1920's or 1930's in China) do make a distinction between nei gong and the more generic qigong term. It does seem though that some Chinese use the term nei gong just to mean internal cultivation in general and even to mean internal strength building in some martial arts traditions, from what I have seen, so it is understandable why there can be a fair bit of confusion about the term and why different people may understand the term differently. Many people will use the term in the way they have heard it used by their teacher or teachers, and I also think it would be a mistake to assume that just because someone is a westerner that they have only learned something from a book. Many in the west have learned from traditional Chinese teachers to some degree or other, either in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, etc., or in the west from teachers who have taught here in the west.

Yes, I think many people use the term medical qigong these days as a general term for health improvement qigong, but your definition of medical qigong matches the original clinical use of the term, I believe. With any system I guess it is always a good idea to do some preliminary research if possible to get a better understanding of where the system is coming from and what the goals and purposes are of the system. On the other hand that may not be possible in some cases if one is not fluent in chinese or if the system one is interested in has always kept a low profile throughout its course of development. At any rate, IMO, for the most part it is probably a good idea to at least meet and spend some time with the teacher of the system before attempting to draw any definite conclusions one way or the other.

Hi bodyoflight. You will likely get somewhat different answers depending on who you ask. This is my current understanding. Nei gong is an older term for internal subtle energy cultivation, while qigong is a newer, more generic term which encompasses any type of subtle energy cultivation. So, the question then is what is internal energy as opposed to other forms of subtle energy (qi)? Basically, internal energy is the subtle energy that flows within our meridians and channels and energy centers within our bodies (whether all of this is really all contained 'within' the body is another matter though). Qigong that focuses more on directing subtle energy (qi) to external parts of the body such as the muscles or skin, and possibly also bones, tendons, and ligaments, such as is done in some forms of 'hard style' martial arts, could be considered external or hard style qigong. There are many different styles of qigong though and some would be hard to classify as either just external or internal, or hard or soft. Generally though, when a system is referred to as nei gong, it implies that there is more than just basic cultivation of the qi in the 12 main meridians. In a true nei gong system one works to fully open and develop the eight extra channels and various special energy centers as well. Also, with the term nei gong there is often an implication of the system being capable of developing special skills or abilities with the use of the internal energy and energy centers that are cultivated. I don't know much about pranayama but my limited understanding is that this term would be roughly equivalent to the term qigong, as there are probably different types of pranayama, or different uses of pranayama with different focuses and purposes as there are in qigong, but I could be wrong about that. One thing to watch out for is that some teachers use the term nei gong as a selling point to describe their system, even though what they teach may not go much beyond basic work on the main meridians and corollaries, and enhancing basic health. This is similar to various qigong systems or martial arts systems throwing the word 'taoist' around although in reality the system may have little or nothing to do with genuine taoist cultivation practices. Words like nei gong and taoist sell, and there will always be those people who try to take advantage of such things. Anyway, IMO, what really matters is if whatever system one is interested in meets one's personal needs and purposes.

Thanks guys. The charts that Joe Blast posted are better than the charts that I have for seeing the points on the toes and fingers. Tactile, thanks for the info on the entry exit points. Good info. I am obviously going to have to do more study on the theory side of acupuncture to get a better grasp of this. Thanks for the info and links guys!

Greetings to you Stig.

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises When it knows good as good, evil arises Thus being and non-being produce each other Difficult and easy bring about each other Long and short reveal each other High and low support each other Music and voice harmonize each other Front and back follow each other Therefore the sages: Manage the work of detached actions Conduct the teaching of no words They work with myriad things but do not control They create but do not possess They act but do not presume They succeed but do not dwell on success It is because they do not dwell on success That it never goes away The softest things of the world Override the hardest things of the world That which has no substance Enters into that which has no openings From this I know the benefits of unattached actions The teaching without words The benefits of actions without attachment Are rarely matched in the world (ttc) The surface of the ocean may sometimes be turbulent but deep within there is stillness and calm. With gentle persistence the depths no longer appear distant. Best wishes to everyone in their practice.

This is my two cent's worth. Life is short, but in our short life we have to make many choices. In general though, one can consciously choose to focus more on the positive or on the negative aspects of things and situations. For those who choose to focus more on the positive, the negative tends to become less and less significant over time, and things that might seem like large or significant issues to those who focus more on the negative will more likely appear as less significant or as a complete non-issue to those who make a practice of focusing on the positive aspects of things. One who focuses on the positive will tend to increase their positive energy and experiences over time and thus attract even more positive energy and situations to themselves, while the person who tends to focus more on the negative tends to waste and tie up much of their energy in conflict and negativity, which can only be detrimental to themselves and possibly to others as well, if others allow themselves to be influenced by such negativity. There will always be those whose hearts are not at peace, and we often don't have much control over what others say or do, but if one concentrates on calming one's own heart and stays focused on the positive as best as one is able, external negative influences will naturally become less and less of a factor. Consider this. The reality is the positive remains the positive despite what others may say, do, or feel. We don't have control over others for the most part but we do have control over ouselves if we put in the effort. There is always at least some room for improvement in all things, but how one approaches such matters is a matter of personal choice. Aside from a few minor wrinkles, I see nothing but good opportunity here for people serious about learning what master Wang is offering to teach. Focus on the goal and pay little heed to minor obstacles along the way. Many thanks to master Wang and his various students that are helping to make these workshops possible! For those who are interested in these teachings, stay positive as there are likely many more good things and opportunities to come. If the current situation is not suitable or feasible, one can either pursue other options in the mean time, and/or wait for a situation in the future that will be more suitable for your situation. Patience is a virtue, or so I have heard. So many good things to focus on, why waste time on minor hiccups? Things have a tendancy of working themselves out when one stays focused on the positive, no?