The Way Is Virtue

Greetings Kathy and Richard. Rest assured that yours and others and master Wang's efforts and time in helping to arrange and hold these workshops is very much appreciated by at least some here and elsewhere. This is a very good opportunity for many who are interested to learn what master Wang is offering to teach. Likely one of the main reasons for not having many more people attend these workshops with master Wang in China right now is the total cost of workshop fees plus return airfare to China. This is a fair chunk of money and is likely outside the means of many people. It would be great if master Wang could come to North America sometimes, if he is able, to hold some workshops here as this would at least eliminate the cost of return airfare to China for many interested students in North America. Also, I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but regarding the workshops in China or elsewhere, I personally wouldn't mind at all if the workshops were held somewhere with very basic and simple accomodations and food to help reduce costs, as the purpose of attending the workshops is to learn and practice what master Wang is teaching, and fancy accomodations or food really isn't necessary at all. Just a thought. In the meantime I am saving my money and hope that someday I can attend one of master Wang's workshops. Stay positive and thanks again for all your efforts...

Ken Charron apparently still teaches it (assuming his website is up to date). http://home.comcast.net/~kencharron/classes.htm His address is listed as being in Hayward, CA. Ken Charron used to have a VHS video tape available on Chan Mi Gong. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on Chan Mi Gong on the net other than what is on this German website: http://www.chanmigong.de/

I've decided to try an experiment and commit to doing the wuji standing meditation (zhan zhuang) stance for at least 20 to 30 minutes a day for the next 100 days. I actually am planning to do about 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the evening everyday for 100 days, but I am allowing for some days when I may be really busy or travelling etc. I figure I should still be able to manage a minimum of at least 20 minutes a day (10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the evening minimum) even when I am quite busy, if I make the effort. The idea of 100 days comes from some of the taoist writings that mention that one can fully restore the qi in the dantian after 100 days of taoist meditation. Of course the 100 days mentioned may not have been meant literally, as realistically there are various factors in play such as a person's age, and health, and previous meditation experience, etc., but 100 days of continuous practice sounds like a halfway reasonably achievable goal to commit to. The reason I have chosen the wuji zhan zhuang stance is in my personal experience it has proven to be a very effective form of meditation/qigong for building and balancing qi and improving health, and I have a couple of stubborn chronic health problems that I would like to try to address. Doing qigong practice intermittently has helped but has not been enough to get over the hump and really address a couple of stubborn health issues. I may do some additional practices such as taiji or moving qigong forms as time allows, but my main practice and committment will be the minimum 20 minutes of wuji standing meditation each day. If anyone is interested in joining in on this experiment and committing to either sitting or standing meditation (or any other qigong/meditation practice if you prefer) for 100 days, then you are certainly welcome. There is something to be said for a group dynamic in things like this. Just post a note to this thread that you are willing to give this a whirl and what type of meditation or qigong you are going to commit to practicing for 100 days. I was thinking of making the official start day this Monday, Oct. 18th, 2010, to allow a day for people to find this thread. People can still join in after Monday if they see this thread after Monday and still want to join in. Just post a comment to this thread that you are starting. You just have to commit to 100 days of practicing meditation or qigong. If you miss a day from time to time, no major worries, but try your best to get at least some practice in every day. Anyone participating can post comments or maybe weekly status updates or any interesting experiences you may have to this thread to keep this thread alive and to help keep others motivated to keep going. Even if you are not interested in participating, feel free to comment or offer suggestions or whatever. If no one else is interested, no worries. Just thought I'd throw this idea out there since I am going to do this anyway. If some people are already doing something similar, feel free to join in this thread and tell us what you are practicing and how often you practice, etc. Anyone else interested in making the committment to see where it leads them? You never know until you try. In case anyone is interested and is not familiar with the wuji stance, here is a description that someone put up on the net on how to do the wuji standing meditation. In contrast to what is said in this description, I would say that one shouldn't so much 'concentrate' on the area that this person is referring to as the wuji point (dantian area), but instead one should maintain a gentle or slight awareness of the dantian area (wuji point). The exact location of the dantian area is not critical since one is just maintaining a gentle awareness of this area as they are practicing. Also, I believe one pats down the outside and inside of the arms and legs when closing, not the front and back of the legs, but that's not critical I don't think. The main idea is to prevent an excess qi build up and help the body to absorb more qi. Points on Wuji Standing There is also this video by Lam Kam Chuen which shows the wuji stance. It looks to me like Lam Kam Chuen needs to relax (sink) his chest a bit more and tilt his chin down a bit more than what he is doing in parts of this video, but what do I know. [Edit: Actually it may just be the camera angle. ]

Yes, pretty much always feel qi being active in some way or another when I stand, although it varies from day to day and week to week. My energy levels have come up somewhat overall since I started practicing two sessions daily. Although there is no doubt a good ways to go before the chronic health problems are fully alleviated, I have definitely made some progress in that respect in just this short couple of months of regular practice though, and the potential certainly does seem to be there to overcome at least some of the chronic health problems if I continue at it. I keep a slight awareness of my lower dantian area when I first start a session and then just relax and don't do any special focusing after that. I just breath naturally and allow the qi to do whatever it does naturally without any direction or intervention on my part, as much as I can manage it anyway. Ideally I guess one will be able to completely still the mind and cease all thoughts. So wuji meditation seems to be consistent with the Taoist principles of cultivating both mind and body/qi ('nature' and 'life'). Truly acheiving that is much easier said than done though, no doubt.

Sounds Good Adept. Good luck with the Zazen meditation practice. I will check out your thread on your zazen practice. Going to go do some tai chi now and finish off later on with the wuji zhan zhuang practice. I've had to pretty much give up watching TV to keep up with my practice though, but that's probably a good thing for the most part. I still watch some news when I have the time though. I work at a desk job and don't move around much during the day so the tai chi practice is a welcome form of exercise and I think it complements the standing practice well. P.S. Lu Kuan Yu (Charles Luk) wrote a three volume book series on Ch'an meditation. Don't know if you've read them. Charles Luk was very knowlegeable on Ch'an and other forms of Buddhist and other meditation. I think his three volume set on Ch'an may be out of print now though. He wrote some other interesting books as well: About Lu K'uan Yu ( Charles Luk )

Yes, Still doing my morning and evening standing sessions. I will very likely continue my daily practice of standing meditation after the 100 days is finsihed although I plan to add sitting meditation as well. I started doing tai chi and some moving qigong as well as I find the movement/exercise brings more balance to the practice, but standing alone seems to be a good way to cultivate energy and gain benefits from the meditation aspect as well. How are things going in your practice these days?

It's really up to you. There is nothing wrong with practicing both standing and moving forms on the same day. If you are short on time you can practice just one or the other.

Q: Why did the Taoist cross the road? A: Because it was in the way. Be good to others and be good to yourself.

In my view, the bottom line is that in this dualistic world of good and bad, kind and unkind, compassionate and indifferent, most people seem to believe good is better than bad, kind is better than unkind, and compassion is better than indifference, etc. People who do good and who promote good and who are compassionate are generally respected while those who are selfish and uncaring and do harm to others are generally thought very poorly of and we may take steps to try to stop such things when it crosses certain lines. I don't think this is just culturally based either because this seems to apply across all cultures for the most part. Those who are compassionate and good are generally respected by most while those who are not compassionate and good are generally not respected by most in the long run. So why is being moral and virtuous and helping others conisdered valuable and important? Why do most people inately seem to recognize and value such traits in others? As I mentioned previously in an earlier comment, within this dualistic world (an 'outward' expression of tao) there are identifiable laws and patterns and ways, if one is paying attention. You can align yourself with these natural laws and patterns and ways or you can ignore them or go against them. Taoists endeavour to recognize and identify these laws and patterns and ways and try to align themselves with these. Ignoring such things or going against them may seem to bring materialistic gain in the short term of part of a lifetime or over a whole lifetime, but Taoists recognize that harm is being done in ways that a strictly materialistic person may not be able to recognize. Taoists traditionally therefore prefer to live fairly simple, moral lives, and to cultivate virtue and help others where possible, and to try to minimize doing harm to all living beings. I think where the confusion lies for a lot of people with taoism and writings like the Tao Te Ching is this: We have two main points of focus in taoism. Aligning oneself naturally with the 'outward' expression of tao and its laws and ways and patterns, and also at the same time learning not to 'cling' to the outward expressions and to ease off our intense focus on the outward expressions of tao so as to begin to open oneself more to the tao as the great mystery. That which is beyond the duality of good and evil and right and wrong, and beyond rational thought and analysis and expression. Both go together however. By aligning oneself naturally with the outward expression of tao, one also begins to open the door to embracing tao, the great mystery. I think if one examines the Tao Te Ching and other Taoist writings from this point of view, some of what is written may begin to be seen in a different light. The Tao Te Ching not only gives hints about the tao as the great mystery, that which is beyond description, and beyond duality, but the Tao Te Ching also gives concrete, 'down to earth' advice on how to properly conduct oneself and align oneself naturally with the natural ways and patterns and laws of this world, which is an outer expression of tao. Anyone who says that Taoism is indifferent towards good and compassion and helping others is missing a lot in my opinion. I could also say more about the religious practices in Taoism as well but that is not really directly relevant to this thread, but I may comment on that more in another thread sometime. I will say however, consider that perhaps all is not as it might appear on the surface at first glance to the casual observer.

Hi manitou. It doesn't sound wacky to me. I think the boundary between wackiness and reality depends on what a person has personally experienced, consensual experience, and also what falls within the limits of the sphere of one's personal belief system and one's societal or cultural consensual belief system one is involved with as well. There is a constant interplay between personal exerience, consensual experience, and the limiting sphere and influences of one's belief system. What people may view as some sort of clear cut reality with clear cut boundaries actually is a constanly changing and evolving interplay between all the factors I mentioned above. Anyway, just thought. In the end, all we have is the sum total of our experience to judge by. What other's think and believe does not change our experience. Our experience is our experience.

Hi Twinner. I think you may be misunderstanding me actually. I was not attempting to promote any particular point of vew within taoism over any other, but was actually just trying to point out that there are many perspectives, and while some may view certain things such as how de is interpreted in different ways within taoism as being seemingly contradictory, I am suggesting that it may be because of our limited understanding that there appears to be contradictions, and if we consider that the Tao Te Ching and other taoist teachings and writings may be speaking from different perspectives and different levels, sometimes all at the same time, then the apparent contradictions seem less of an issue. BTW, the concept of distinct divisions of 'religious taoism' and 'philosophical taoism' and other types or periods of taoism is I believe mainly a modern academic view that seems to have been formed as an attempt by some to classify and define Taoism in different ways, and also to try to make taoism fit into certain preconceptions which appear to be in part culturally based, and to try to make more 'sense' out of all the different practices and traditions and views and approaches that are contained within Taoism as a whole. In my view these are just terms of convenience only and, from what I have seen, actual practicing taoists seem to make less distinction between religious concepts, philosophoical concepts, and the various other practices and views contained within taoism as a whole. The Tao Te Ching was and still is seen as an important book by all taoists as far as I am aware. The view of its value is not limited to any particular group within taoism or period of taoism. This might be hard for many Westerners to grasp as in Western culture philosophy and religion developed fairly separately and often seem to be at odds with 'each other'. I am not partial to any particular classification or view within taoism as I see all as different outward epressions of the tao, if you will. What I was trying to do was merely point out that there are different perspectives and views within taoism as a whole and what might seem as division and contradiction from one perspective may appear less contradictory and divided from other perspectives. For example, when viewed from a 'multi-layered' perspective certain concepts take on different meanings depending on the 'layer' one is focusing on. I believe I understand what you are saying here and that is not what I am saying or where I am coming from. My view is that our perspective leads us to see things in a certain way, and what we think we understand may only be a tiny piece of the 'greater whole', a greater whole that may actually be multi-layered or multi-faceted or multi-dimensional, or however you want to think of it. To be clear, I personally do not see any contradiction between viewing de as something that naturally springs from tao and which is an 'expression' or 'vehicle' of tao, and the view of de as a way of cultivation and embracing tao, and also as an embodiment or expression of one's level of cultivation. These to me are just different perspectives. Different perspectives of a 'greater whole' which we are told actually extends far 'outside the boundaries' of rational thought and analysis, and which also at the same time has no substance or dimension to it as well. It seems to me that the Tao Te Ching speaks of tao from the perspective of the great mystery as well as from the perspective of its outward expression, if not from various other perspectives as well. Hmmm, well the topic is "Compassion and Taoism - A discussion about Compassion as it relates to Taoism", is it not? P.S. - I think the passage I quoted in my previous reply sums up what I am trying to say quite well in regards to virtue and compassion: "Heaven is without kindness but from this great kindness is born." The great mystery is beyond the duality of kindness and unkind, but great kindness (one side of a duality) arises from the great mystery. The outward expression of tao follows paths and patterns and even laws, so within that context there are definite ways that can be understood and followed, but from the context of the great mystery there are no such concepts or ways or identifiable patterns. My view then is there are many views, depending on the context and perspective. I am not overly interested in debate in regards to such things as I believe it is not too helpful in general. I have no problems with people expressing different perspectives however, as we all have our own perspectives and it is only natural for us to express things from our own perspective. All the different perspectives are valuable in my 'perspective'. (I really do need to start using a spell checker).

I posted this in anopther thread regarding Taoism and compassion, but I thought I would repost it here as it also relates to the concept of 'de' in the Dao De Jing, which seems to be a word that is interpreted in various different ways and thus can be confusing to Western readers. This is just my personal take on the matters of de and compassion in the Tao Te Ching and in taoism in general: When people read the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing), it may seem that it makes things very impersonal, almost uncaring from a certain perspective. But many people might also agree that what is written in the Tao Te Ching is not at all easy to understand, and it seems that there are possibly many ways to interpret it, and it also seems that it is multilayered and addresses things at various levels all at the same time. By changing one's perspective it can seem to speak about how to conduct oneself in every day normal life and how to interact with others, and at the same time from a different perspective it seems to be giving guidance on inner cultivation and proper conduct and attitude for inner cultivation, and it also seems to hint at the inner workings of tao as the 'great mystery' as well as the inner workings of tao in its many 'outward' expressions, etc. Depending on which translation one reads it may seem that some aspects are emphasized more than other aspects but I suspect that is more than a little due to the biases of the translators. I think when one examines the original Chinese characters it is easier see how it could easily be interpreted in many different ways, and how it seems to be speaking at many different levels. Anyway, my point is that I think one should be very careful about drawing definite conclusions about what is really being said in the Tao Te Ching just based on one's own particular point of view and current way of thinking. It seems to me that even amongst different traditions in Taoism there can be various different perspectives and interpretations of 'tao' with different emphasis placed on different things. When viewed from this perspective it should give one pause to think that even amongst practicing Taoists there are various different perspectives with different emphasis, presumably based on different points of view and different understanding, and different cultural biases at the time. It seems to me they are all outward expressions of 'tao'. Some perspectives and practices may be good, some may be fairly neutral, some may be bad. All exist in the outward expression of tao, or so it is said. Also, from what I have seen, most if not all actual practicing Taoists did/do follow certain rules of conduct and many seem to place emphasis on being of service to others and helping others and society as a whole. Also some Taoist writings go into detail about various types of de and that the 'accumulation' of de (te) is the main deciding factor in how one truly progresses in their cultivation. I have seen de broken down into 4 levels, starting at the lowest level of de to the highest: pin de - morality and virtues. gong de - helping others through one's actions. yin de - helping others anonymously without selfish motive, with no desire or intent for personal recognition or gratitude, etc. dao de - helping others in their progress to realize dao Note added later: I should also probably point out that although these are expressed as levels, all are important and the higer levels build on the foundation of the lower levels. One can't embody a higher level without first having embodied the lower levels as a foundation. This is my understanding of it anyway. Here is a passage from the 'Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman scripture", thought to orginate in the 6th century CE: "Heaven is without kindness but from this great kindness is born" . Wishing everyone all the best in their journeys...

When people read the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing), it may seem that it makes things very impersonal, almost uncaring from a certain perspective. But many people might also agree that what is written in the Tao Te Ching is not at all easy to understand, and it seems that there are possibly many ways to interpret it, and it also seems that it is multilayered and addresses things at various levels all at the same time. By changing one's perspective it can seem to speak about how to conduct oneself in every day normal life and how to interact with others, and at the same time from a different perspective it seems to be giving guidance on inner cultivation and proper conduct and attitude for inner cultivation, and it also seems to hint at the inner workings of tao as the 'great mystery' as well as the inner workings of tao in its many 'outward' expressions, etc. Depending on which translation one reads it may seem that some aspects are emphasized more than other aspects but I suspect that is more than a little due to the biases of the translators. I think when one examines the original Chinese characters it is easier see how it could easily be interpreted in many different ways, and how it seems to be speaking at many different levels. Anyway, my point is that I think one should be very careful about drawing definite conclusions about what is really being said in the Tao Te Ching just based on one's own particular point of view and current way of thinking. It seems to me that even amongst different traditions in Taoism there can be various different perspectives and interpretations of 'tao' with different emphasis placed on different things. When viewed from this perspective it should give one pause to think that even within practicing Taoists there are various different perspectives with different emphasis, presumably based on different points of view and different understanding, and different cultural biases at the time. It seems to me they are all outward expressions of 'tao'. Some perspectives and practices may be good, some may be fairly neutral, some may be bad. All exist in the outward expression of tao, or so it is said. Also, from what I have seen, most if not all actual practicing Taoists did/do follow certain rules of conduct and many seem to place emphasis on being of service to others and helping others and society as a whole. Also some Taoist writings go into detail about various types of de and that the 'accumulation' of de (te) is the main deciding factor in how one truly progresses in their cultivation. I have seen de broken down into 4 levels, starting at the lowest level of de to the highest: pin de - morality and virtues. gong de - helping others through one's actions. yin de - helping others anonymously without selfish motive, with no desire or intent for personal recognition or gratitude, etc. dao de - helping others in their progress to realize dao Note added later: I should also probably point out that although these are expressed as levels, all are important and the higer levels build on the foundation of the lower levels. One can't embody a higher level without first having embodied the lower levels as a foundation. This is my understanding of it anyway. Here is a passage from the 'Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman scripture", thought to orginate in the 6th century CE: "Heaven is without kindness but from this great kindness is born" .

Ok, thanks for the info on Lojong. Sounds quite interesting. I will read up on it more when I get the chance. Those books you mentioned sound interesting as well. I will keep them in mind. I have a number of other books that I want to read as well if and when I get the chance, but my time has been very limited these days. Its good that the Dalai Lama and others are starting to translate and release such information. It should be a high quality source of information I would think. Regarding practices, it seems you have a fairly good handle on being able to indentify things that aren't helpful to your situation and you are able to stop or slow down before things get out of hand. That is good. Some people continue on with certain practices they are doing even though they are getting warning signs that what they are practicing or the way they are practicing may not be the most beneficial to them. In my opinion, you are quite right to proceed with a lot of caution and to take it very slow.

Hi Jetsun. Thanks for the feedback. We all have to find something that seems suitable and we won't know what's suitable unless we try various different things sometimes. I have tried some other practices as well in the past. I am not familiar with Lojong training so I'll have to read up on it a bit. A quick check seemed to indicate it is a Tibetan practice? There is also 'sitting and forgetting practice' which is just sitting (or standing) while just relaxing the mind and not focusing on anything in particular. In my limited experience, it works to bring balance in a natural way with no interference from the mind at all. Don't know if that would be suitable at all to you or not though. It is basically what I practice with the exception that I hold a slight awareness of the lower dantian area when I first start practicing and then don't focus on anything in particular from that point on. Whatever occurs happens at its own natural rate and pace with no conscious interference from my mind. I'm only about 53 days into the daily practice of this though so I can't say what the long term benefits of daily practice will be yet though, but it seems to hold a lot of potential. I think both Buddhism and Taoism have traditions that practice meditation this way, if I am not mistaken. Likely not suitable for everyone though. P.S. I will endeavour to send balancing and healing energy your way.

If I have been counting right we should be 51 days in. Anyone have any interesting experiences or comments after 50 days of daily practice? The daily practice seems to be helping with my overall energy levels so far.

Hi Brian. Just wondering, are you doing any fairly intense concentration or focusing in any way when you practice qigong?

There was a good reason that teachers of taoist and other traditions kept many of their teachings private and chose their students very carefully. If what someone is teaching does not seem suitable then one can search for another teacher that does seem more suitable. Making disrepectful or demanding comments towards others, especially in regards to others one has not met and spent any real time with, is not helpful to anyone else or to one's self in my opinion. Trying to force others to fit into one's preconceptions is also not helpful in my opinion. If something does not seem suitable why not simply move on and look for something else that does? Seems simple enough. Do people really think that 'tao' can be grasped or made to conform to their preconceptions and arbitrary expectations, or that one can ever have a chance of embracing tao through contention, judgement, disrepect, etc.? It seems to me based on taoist teachings that one does not approach tao by trying to force tao to conform to one's expectations, but instead by letting go of preconceptions and personal biases and opinions and instead allowing oneself to naturally explore and coexist in tao in its many varied expressions, but perhaps I am wrong. Maybe the taoist teachers and sages of old had it all wrong. Maybe the true tao is about irreverence, direspect, and demanding that others conform to our own personal limited views, forcing tao to conform to our personal wishes and wants. etc. Perhaps the ego is really the true ruler of tao. Some verses from the Tao Te Ching: Tao Te Ching - Translation by Derek Lin Chapter 41 Higher people hear of the Tao They diligently practice it Average people hear of the Tao They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it Lower people hear of the Tao They laugh loudly at it If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao Therefore a proverb has the following: The clear Tao appears unclear The advancing Tao appears to retreat The smooth Tao appears uneven High virtue appears like a valley Great integrity appears like disgrace Encompassing virtue appears insufficient Building virtue appears inactive True substance appears inconstant The great square has no corners The great vessel is late in completion The great music is imperceptible in sound The great image has no form The Tao is hidden and nameless Yet it is only the Tao that excels in giving and completing everything Chapter 45 Great perfection seems flawed Its function is without failure Great fullness seems empty Its function is without exhaustion Great straightness seems bent Great skill seems unrefined Great eloquence seems inarticulate Movement overcomes cold Stillness overcomes heat Clear quietness is the standard of the world Chapter 70 My words are easy to understand, easy to practice The world cannot understand, cannot practice My words have basis My actions have principle People do not understand this Therefore they do not understand me Those who understand me are few Thus I am highly valued Therefore the sage wears plain clothes but holds jade

The web link I posted for you previously has lots of information about Taoism. If you want to learn more about the actual Taoism that was/is practiced in China you can get a good overview from that website. Here is the web page that has information about the Taoist internal alchemy and external alchemy traditions and practices. FYSK Daoist Culture Centre Database - Religious Practices http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Portal:Religious_Practise The information on the 'Commandments of the Orthodox Oneness Sect' (zhengyi sect) and the 'Commandments of the Complete Perfection Sect' (Quan Zhen sect) may be interesting to others as well. Those are the two main surviving branches of Taoism in China today. The Quan Zhen branch was influenced by both Buddhism and Conducianism.

The economic situation is already not so far off from what is predicted here. Hope things don't get as bad as is outlined in this prediction though. How were these predictions made?

Nice!

Palm full, of fresh fruit! But I cannot count them all an uncarved block head

Knowledge is one's total accumulation of 'facts', 'observations', 'truths', etc. Wisdom comes from the letting go of 'facts', 'observations', 'truths', etc.

Cant you people count?? yes, but not everyone is anal retentive

[Edit:] Decided to make my reply more to the point. Here's a good resource: FYSK Daoist Culture Centre Database http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Main_Page