The Way Is Virtue

Mike, in my experience it is probably better not to be too quick to try to label or pigeon hole what you are experiencing. There can be many causes at various levels of such things. Try to stay as relaxed and natural as you can and observe and investigate what seems to help and what does not. I have found that generally simpler and natural approaches and being prepared to give things a lot of time if necessary, and not giving up will eventually lead to insights and improvement. It could be as simple as consulting a herb doctor or acupuncturist or naturopath, or doing simple forms of health yoga or qigong, or just continuing with long relaxed walks in nature, or just giving it more time. Some teachers or natural healers or groups may help but doing research and taking your time to check various things out may be helpful as well. Such things are part of the journey of life that we all experience and go through in varying degrees and at different times. Best wishes.

A few thoughts on Tao, Taoism, motivation, and reality. Within what is called Taoism is what is a very loosely based collection of many different traditions, views, approaches, beliefs, and practices with many different influences and sources. Some traditions have long since passed, some have gone through various changes and some have branched out in different ways, and others are hybrids of various different things. A lot of what many people might think of as Taoism today is in reality only mixed bits and pieces of former systems or traditions often with many 'new' things or ideas thrown in as well. While some traditions are certainly still in existence, being able to determine what is 'authentic' and what is a complete system and what is not is no straight forward matter. When you understand that when looked at over the long term that any given system may have gone through many changes and had various influences over its existence, even trying to apply the concept of 'authentic' may not be too useful. The point I am trying to make here is from my own limited experience and understanding there is no one single coherent thing or group of things that is Taoism. Attempts in the past and even the present have been made to try to collect many of these widely varying and different traditions and practices into more of a unified group, but as best as I can gather there really is no single such thing as Taoism. Taoism is essentially just a label that has been used to describe a lot of traditions and practices that existed in China, and there are at least some commonalities between many different traditions and practices, but that's about as far as it goes from what I have been able to gather. Even if a person were to focus on just a particular tradition that is still in existence, you are very likely to find variations in views and practices amongst different teachers and practitioners of that tradition. This as best as I can gather is the reality of the situation. Wide diversity, change, and wide variations in interpretation and practices all seem to be a part of what has been included under the name of Taoism. Not everything that is called Taoism (AKA Daoism) is necessarily good, and sometimes some practices or approaches may even be harmful, or a complete waste of time, or may include much superstitious views and practices. That is not to say that there are not many good things within Taoism as well. There is no easy way to draw a line between what is good and what is bad, as such is also strongly influenced by an individual's own way of looking at things and their own personal value system. Also, within good there can often be at least some bad, and vice versa. Sometimes we are blind to what is really there in front of us and we may not get a broader picture and understanding until much later, if we are lucky enough to get any better understanding at all. In my opinion the reality is that sometimes those who may present them self, or who are being presented by others, as experts or true bearers of a tradition, etc. may in actuality be far from it, and may be just as lost or deluded or worse than the students and followers they guide and teach. We as humans each have a concept of reality, but a good part of what we might think of as reality is really just a picture we have generated in our minds based on our beliefs, ideas, value system, prior experiences, and our desires, etc. I think much of what I am saying can be applied to almost any spiritual or philosophical system in this world, or any system or way of looking at things for that matter. So where does that leave a person? We can only go with what feels right to us at any given time, but there may be a few things we can do that might help. If we evaluate what are our real goals and reasons and ideas are for taking any given approach or view, or for following any particular system, we may gain some better insight into our situation, even if it is only some small insight. When we are talking about spirituality, it often boils down to what just feels right to each individual person, but there may be certain aspects we can look into to help keep us from getting too far off track. From the point of view of our self, we can look at our personal reasons for taking a certain approach. Are we mainly motivated by selfish or shallow reasons or just pursuing a whimsical idea we hold in our head, or are we driven by something much deeper? As for teachers, if a given teacher is claiming to teach a spiritual or mental (or whatever) cultivation or religious system, how does this teacher really embody the principles they are claiming to teach? Do they show signs of being egotistical, or selfish, over controlling, or abrasive, or deceptive, or vindictive, or just out for self gain or self promotion, or overly sensitive to inquiries about their system or background, or overly sensitive to criticism, etc? Do they mainly focus on promising personal gains or abilities and powers, etc., for the practitioner, or are they mainly focused on increasing insight and understanding and the betterment of all? Something else to keep in mind is that just because a given teacher may be able to demonstrate some unusual ability or abilities, it also doesn't mean that they are necessarily spiritually advanced or more enlightened. It is easy to fall into the trap of being fooled by such things. The ego and our personal desires can be our biggest deceiver. The above is nothing more than some thoughts from my perspective. I make no claims to validity or to having any relation to reality. I just wanted to share a few thoughts on the matter.

I don't think sodium hydroxide forms callouses. It would tend to eat them away however. I have seen a close up shot of Zhou Ting Jue's palms in one of the videos on him and his hands looked pretty ordinary, at least what showed in the video anyway. I am still not convinced about the theory about him using sodium hydroxide, for the reasons I mentioned previously. It sounds like it could just be a caustic lye. BTW, when you put a solution of sodium hydroxide and water and aluminum foil together, it tends to bubble and sizzle away and eat all the aluminum foil away. So, if sodium hydroxide is used, it would likely be bubbling and sizzling and very likely eating away the aluminum foil. I suppose it may be possible that if someone were to carefully mix a very weak solution of sodium hydroxide and water to just the right weak percentage and put that on aluminum foil that it might produce heat without noticeably bubbling and sizzling too much, and may not eat too much of the aluminum foil away too quickly, but I wouldn't know without doing some experimentation first. It might not work that way at all. Normally it looks something like this: It is not a mixture I would want to be touching with my hands anyway. P.S. This video shows a segment in which Zhou Ting Jue is heating up what they say is just a rolled up dampened towel in his hands (no mention of aluminum in the rolled up towel): This video (starting at around 3:21) shows a doctor testing Zhou Ting Jue's ability to heat a moistened aluminum foil pad in his doctor's office. They don't mention in this short video clip what steps the doctor took to make sure Zhou Ting Jue didn't tamper with the aluminum foil pad or water, but presumably if you are going to the trouble to formally test someone you would be smart enough to make sure they weren't given the opportunity to tamper with the items being tested. I can't say that the doctor in this video did take those precautions for certain, but I would have to wonder about the point of doing the test if such obvious precautions were not taken: I am well aware that videos are not proof of anything, but also someone simply claiming that they think Zhou Ting Jue is using sodium hydroxide is not proof of anything either, especially when that explanation doesn't seem to hold up too well when examined more closely. Zhou Ting Jue may be using some tricks, but if he is I think it is certainly not proven yet, is all that I saying. Also, Zhou Ting Jue really does appear to be someone who may have some real qigong skill. If he is just a trickster, he is a very good one, IMO.

I personally don't know that this premise of yours is correct or not. For all I know some teachers who either have come to America or who visit America may have attained the Dao. My multimeter doesn't have a Dao Attainment measurement mode so I really don't know. Well, after all your name is Lao Tzu...

I have heard the story, but the reserves I have about this story is that I know that if I suspected someone was adding some unknown chemicals or substances to water, I would never taste the water without knowing exactly what was in the water first. Who knows what I might end up putting in my mouth? It could be poisonous. I don't know for certain one way or the other about this, but as I say I do have reserves about that particular story. Maybe some people are just a whole lot less cautious about such things than me. P.S. I am not a chemist, but wouldn't there be a real risk of skin burns if water with sodium hydroxide dissolved in it gets on a person's skin? Zhou Ting Jue not only handles the dampened paper towel wrapped aluminum foil sheet in his bare hands, but he also lays this dampened sheet on his patients and no doubt some of the water soaks into the patient's clothes and gets on their skin as well. Wikipedia has a picture of burns on a person's hand who was in contact with water with less than 10% sodium Hydroxide dissolved in it, and the burns are quite severe. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sodium_hydroxide_burn.png ). Just wondering how this is supposed to work...

I wouldn't write off Zhou Ting Jue so quickly. Sure he likes to do the showman thing, but some of the things he does such as touching red hot iron with his hands or tongue would most likely severely injure a normal person. He could possibly be using tricks for that, but that would be one very dangerous trick. He is around 77 years old now and he still appears to be very strong and healthy. As often is the case, there can be conflicting stories about various teachers depending on who you talk to. Someone made a claim somewhere that they think Zhou Ting jue is using something in the water that he puts on the aluminum foil, but others have said that his qigong healing ability is genuine. Sometimes it is really hard to know unless you go and meet a given teacher yourself and spend some time with them. Zhou Ting Jue may do the showman thing, but it does at least appear that he may have some real qigong ability. Whether he uses a trick with the aluminim foil I don't know, but not everyone is a fake.

Well, not all of them are.

Some practices by their very nature simply can't be passed on through books or videos. You can learn some basic practices from books, but I think there are practices that do need to be learned from teachers. We can be deceived and mislead by others, but no one deceives us and misleads us more than ourself, IMO. A good teacher can help keep a person on track with the teacher's experience and perception, which they gained from long practice and also through the assistance and guidance of their own teacher. It is easy to make broad sweeping statements but I personally do think there are practices that can and should only be learned from a teacher. However, from my own experience, what we may think we are ready to learn at any given time may be quite different from where we really are as a person, and life seems to inevitably bring us face to face with our self and facilitates us learning what we really need to learn, despite anything we may think. I can't prove that of course, but it often sure seems that way.

I think someone was actually trying to pull your leg regarding those three. Don't expect to get any kind of definitive answer here or anywhere else on such questions. The reality is such things are just anyone's own personal judgement call. You could have several people recommend one person, and then have several others telling you to avoid the same person. I have even seen people recommending certain people as 'masters' and such when as near as I can tell they have actually not even met the said 'master' or spent any real time learning from them. I would also caution you that just because someone teaches some practice or practices that may be beneficial, it doesn't make that person a master. There are lots of practices that are available through books and videos which anyone can pick up and start teaching, and the practices may be beneficial, but any benefit you get from the practices is coming from the practices and has little to do with the teacher. Some teachers mix and match various practices and combine them in different ways in whatever way they feel like, and some make up their own practices as well, and then may represent these practices as some old system that was passed on to them. Now this could be valid if someone really knows what they are doing, but how can one assess if this person really does know what they are doing? In the case where some teachers misrepresent what they are teaching as being some esoteric system that was passed on to them when in reality it is just a mixture of various things that they picked up here and there or made up, it can sometimes be very hard to determine what the real source of the practices are. So it always comes down to each person's own personal judgement call, IMO. I know for certain that there are so called 'masters' out there who have a large following of students who will insist that their 'master' is the greatest master ever, and that only their master is teaching true authentic teachings which are so much superior to everything else out there, etc., etc. However, I have met some of these 'great masters/teachers' and some of them seem to me to be pretty mediocre, or self deluded or outright frauds, or otherwise mentally imbalanced in some ways, although some of these may have some actual qigong or martial arts ability. Don't mistake someone having some qigong or healing ability necessarily being a high level sprititual master or something like that. Really, just about anyone should be able to learn qigong and qigong applications such as in martial arts or healing if they practice a half decent method diligently for several years. However to achieve a level of qigong ability to be able to improve one's own health, or even to help in healing others, or to increase martial arts ability does not require any particular high level of spiritual cultivation, based on what I have seen. Don't be fooled by this sort of hype from well meaning students or others. Often people are just putting voice to what they would like to think or believe, but in actuality they have no real sound basis for what they are claiming. Of course, some teachers may really be exceptional and the students praise is warranted, but it can be hard to tell the difference without meeting the various teachers and spending some real time with them to get a better feel for them. After a while a person starts getting a better feel for who is probably a real accomplished teacher and who isn't. As one example of how this whole thing can be quite the can of worms, Max Christensen, who was mentioned above by someone else, teaches a practice he calls 'kunlun nei gung', and several years ago out of curiousity I read his book on this practice, and at the time he seemed to be presenting this system as some rare esoteric system that he learned from somewhere which was called 'kunlun nei gung'. (I wasn't very impressed with the book, BTW). Later I heard others saying that Max Christensen actually learned the basis of some of this practice from a local teacher named Jenny Lamb who teaches some related qigong practices. Now I see that Max Christensen has added some info on his website which says that Kunlun is actually just a name that Max made up to describe some practices that he actually learned from various teachers, and that supposedly these various teachers have agreed that calling these various practices which Max teaches as 'Kunlun' is a good name for them. ( http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/). Now, I can only speak for myself, but that sure sounds more than a little questionable to me. The strange thing is some people seem to be aware of these sort of strange shenanigans that their particular teachers have been up to and just shrug it off or rationalize it away, and say they had some good or interesting results with such and such a practice taught by this teacher so they still think they are a good teacher. Personally I would not be too interested in learning from any teacher who can't clearly explain the exact source of what they are teaching and exactly where they learned it and exactly who they learned it from, etc. If their story is changing over time, that is a pretty good warning sign that something is not quite right. From what I have seen, there are other teachers who make questionable statements about what they are teaching, or they seem to be very intentionally vague about such things, and may get quite irritated if someone asks for more info about such things. I know of one other teacher who charges quite a lot for his classes and DVD's, and someone who knew this person years ago says that this person was practicing something quite different before they came to America, and it seems that the teacher made up their own system and the history of what they learned, and set themself up as a master of this made up system once they came to America. It would be hard for someone to confirm such things many years later, but IMO it is a good idea to keep in mind that this sort of thing does seem to happen sometimes. It is no easy matter to find a good teacher, but it really does come down to doing research where possible and understanding that various recommendations and claims could potentially be well off the mark. All that being said, I have met and learned from teachers who were able to pass on valuable things to me, and who did seem to be quite accomplished in at least some of the practices they taught. There are many lessons to learn and we don't necessarily need a high level master, whatever that may be, to learn these various lessons, IMO. Life has a way of bringing us face to face with ourself no matter which way we turn and no matter what we think.

There can be quite a wide degree of difference between different types of mental illness or mental conditions. Certainly people with more mild forms of depression can often get good results from an exercise program of any type, and practices like tai chi and movement qigong, especially when practiced in a group setting, can often be helpful for such a condition as well. However, there are many forms of mental illness, and just because more minor forms of depression can sometimes be helped with regular exercise or tai chi or qigong, it most certainly doesn't mean that all other forms of mental illness or mental/emotional issues can also be helped this way. I think it would be a mistake to not make clear distinctions between all the different types of mental conditions and levels of severity that exist. Most certainly they can not all can be addressed in the same way. Most qigong teachers and masters don't claim to be able to heal mental illnesses (milder forms of depression may be an exception), and although some may claim to be able to heal mental illnesses, IMO one should be very cautious about such claims and do some research if possible to see if those claims can be backed up in any way, and to find out more about which specific forms of mental illness they are claiming to be able to help with, etc. In my experience there often can be quite a big difference between claims and recommendations by others and actual ability to deliver real results. Another thing to consider, a few qigong teachers and masters that I have spent some time with in the past actually appeared to me to have their own mental issues or an over-exagerated view of their abilities, although some of these teachers and masters had a number of students and patients. I won't name any names, but I have met a few like this. When it comes to things like qigong/neigong and spiritual cultivation practices there can be a kind of self-imposed myopia that overcomes some people, which seems to be related to their personal desires and what they would really like to believe, and such people can often be blind to what is actually going on right in front of them. Some go on like this for many years, and then one day they are left in a position where they just finally have to admit that many of the things they made themself believe were not actually in line with the reality of the situation. Sometimes it can be a very harsh let down for some people when they finally see through the movie screen of what they wanted to believe or were led to believe and see the situation as it really is. Don't get me wrong, there are those who do seem to have some remarkable abilities in qigong healing, but often times the reality can fall somewhat short of the hype, in my experience. Also, from what I have seen anyway, some teachers/masters can produce some interesting effects with qi, but the actual healing results can be somewhat less spectacular overall. Enthusiasm and open mindedness is good, but it should be tempered with a healthy dose of caution, IMO. People can disagree or agree with what I am saying here, but this has been my experience anyway.

Regarding Mo Pai being a spiritual cultivation practice or a philosophy based on Mo Zi's teachings, it's been a while now but I seem to recall in Kosta's first book on John Chang that John Chang stated that Mo Pai is primarily a special kind of martial art training. It may actually have little to do with Mo Zi's original teachings, although it may have some connection there in some way. It primarily seems to be a neigong and martial art practice, although such things likely can't be completely removed from spirituality and philosophy. People should also comsider that (again, if I remember correctly) it was stated in the book that people with an aptitude like John Chang or his teacher to progress to high levels in such practices are rare, and maybe only one or two ever come along in a lifetime. This is likely the same for just about any culitvation system. Regarding Liao sifu apparently not wanting the Mo Pai system passed on to Westerners, I would be inclined to think that this might have more to do with major cultural and world view differences and differences in attitude and ways of life and behaviour than anything to do with specific race, although I could be wrong. However, the East is now becoming more and more modernized and influenced by Western culture and attidues these days as well. Whether one believes the stories and videos about Mo Pai or not, the fact is such systems traditionally keep a very low profile and the more advanced teachings are usually kept completely hidden and secret and only passed on to a very few in secret from generation to generation, so it is quite unusual that John Chang was as open as he was about his system to Westerners. It doesn't seem surprising to me anyway that Liao sifu did not want such a system passed on to any outsiders. That is normal procedure for such systems. In my opinion, I think it is very lucky and unusual indeed that John Chang allowed what he did to be revealed to outsiders. Who knows? Maybe it is just one more crack in the cosmic egg that was somehow meant to be at this time. Everything in its right time and place. Perhaps there is an underlying order within all the apparent chaos and madness. Something to consider anyway.

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Hi audio healing. IMO, you would do well to pay attention to jetsun's reply, as I believe he is speaking from a lot of experience and careful observation. It no doubt depends on the exact nature of your condition, but I do know some qigong teachers/healers will not work with people or teach qigong to people with certain mental conditions, and do not claim to be able to heal such conditions as well. Be cautious of those who make pat statements about qigong teachers/masters being able to heal such problems. IMO, it is something that you would want to research a lot in regards to various practices and qigong masters, and be cautious of off-the-cuff recommendations and statements. If after doing as much research as you resonably can, you still want to meet a particular teacher or healer, I would stillr ecommend caution and meeting them in person only and getting to know them better before undergoing treatment. I would say forget the distance healing thing. There are too many unknowns there and practices of questionable validity. At least with visiting someone in person and getting to know them a bit first and discussing how their system or approach is specifically supposed to help with your specific situation, you can at least get some sort of direct feel for the person and practices first. In my experience, many cannot actually deliver on what they promise, even sometimes when they come highly recommended by some others. Best wishes to you.

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Hi Jetsun. I tend to think that there are likely authentic systems still being passed on, but one can only learn what one is ready to learn. If a person is not ready for something, they are not ready for something. I am therefore inclined to think that when the student is truly ready the teacher will appear. I also think that often times the lesson we are ready to learn is not at all the lesson that we may think we are ready to learn. Yes, I find it is better to meet someone in person and spend some time with them before attempting to draw any conclusions.

Hi Chi Dragon. I am just speaking from own experience and understanding and expressing my current thoughts on it. All comments are welcome.

Hi Chi Dragon. That may be a part of it, but it would seem that many traditions actually did not make much real distinction between religious, self cultivation, and philosophical aspects. My impression is that overall it has been viewed as just different aspects. Different traditions may have placed different emphasis on different aspects, and there seems to have been a fair bit of variation in interpretation and implementation. What you are alluding to seems to me to actually be a more modern idea (both Eastern and Western) of trying to group such different aspects into definite distinct classifications. Part of it may have to do with this being just a common approach of modern scholars and modern people, and also part of it may have to do with some people or special interest groups wanting to try to separate aspects out that they find less appealing. In my experience interacting with both modern day Westerners and modern day Chinese, I think what I was referring to in my previous comments can be applicable to anyone. I certainly know that many modern day Chinese have also adopted the term of Taoism or Daoism when speaking English, or a Chinese derived equivalent such as 'Dao school'. I guess at the very least a common aspect that seems to link many of these traditions together is a concept of Dao, a common regard of the Dao De Jing as being an important or key work or scripture, and the idea of immortality, although the exact concept of immortality and its importance seems to have varied somewhat over time and with different traditions. Beyond that it seems there can be very wide differences sometimes with little relation.

I think we are in agreement then that this can't really be taught by just a written text, at least not to a high level. The serious student should really spend time to try to find a good teacher IMO, but really this comes down to each person's individual judgement, perception, and intuition. Ultimately it seems there will always be an unknown or unkowable element no matter how one approaches it. At least written texts can give a person some idea of what the system is about and what it is supposed to achieve. Best wishes...

Hi exorcist. Well some people are openly teaching and it seems that anyone can go and start learning if they are really interested. Maybe it is not so secret these days. It would seem that it is a practice that takes a real commitment of time and effort, and maybe not so many people really have that much interest or enough time or suitable circumstances to practice much even if they do have some interest. However, can such a practice really be entirely presented as a complete set of generic written instructions or does it require the perception and guidance of an accomplished teacher to provide instruction that is specifically customized to each individual, and to only pass on the specific customized instructions at each stage for each individual student as each student becomes ready to understand and absorb it, and which can't just be explained or taught in some generic way? I am inclined to think that this may be the case, so having a book or website that 'explains all' may not even be possible, and may instead open people up to potential harm if they practice something incorrectly or practice something which they are not ready for or which is not suitable for a given individual's actual situation. I am inclined to think that it is not so much about some teachers wanting to keep secrets or thinking that most people are too immature or otherwise incapable (although this may well be a factor), as it is that such a practice can only be properly passed on by an accomplished teacher and a student can only be taught that which they are really ready for and the teachings must also be customized to each individual under the watchful eye of the teacher. Am I wrong? Exorcist, are you learning from a teacher? If not, then where are you learning from, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, the blog is maintained by Ken, but it is an English translation of writings by a Mr. Shen. Here is what Ken says: "This is the official English blog of Shen Laoshi, who is a student of Daoist Master Wang Liping of the Dragon Gate Sect (Longmen Pai). Mr Wang Liping is a well known Daoist figure in China and he was introduced to the west through the book Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard. Mr Shen has been a disciple of Master Wang for over 20 years, he has been a teaching assistant to Master Wang in many Daoist cultivation seminars in China."

Hi Twinner. Maybe this will be of some help: "The Sage uses his mind like a mirror. It remains in its place passively... " Zhuang Zi Best wishes...

Hi RV. Not following. I kept my posts here on topic for the most part except when I was responding to a couple of other's posts to me here today that were off topic. I guess I could have ignored those posts as I could this one, but sometimes a response seems warranted. I was not the only one going off topic. We all go off topic from time to time, don't we? I probably could have kept my replies more brief however, like this one. Best wishes to you...

Hi HE, as I said, I guess you probably mean well but you are way off. I was not talking about the discussion here on muslims and religion when I said he made false statements. The false statements were not in regards to that. They were made by otp in regards to mentioning his self promotion. Not everything is at it might appear on the surface. You are missing a lot but you still persist in commenting on this. I guess the bottom line is you are apparently ok with otp trying to deceieve others here and I was not. We obviously see things differently but, then again, you are missing a lot. I think I have explained enough. A lot of what you are going on about is not in line with the facts and is not worth commenting on. Best wishes...

Hi Harmonious Emptiness. I haven't "outed his identity". He is still anonymous if you haven't noticed. My original intention a few weeks back was actually to help otp get in touch with 'shaman flowing hands' if he was interested, since he seemed to be really keenly interested in what this person had to say and what he has written. When I realized what the actual situation was I modifed some of my previous posts to remove any reference to it. It was only when I later subtly asked otp about his continued self promotion and praise for 'shaman flowing hands' in another thread and he responded with an insult and false statements that I decided to respond and clarify a few things. My subsequent pointing out the situation about his promoting his own website and praising 'shaman flowing hands' was just an FYI so people here could take those promotions and praises and his other statements here in context. Again, my apologies to everyone for derailing the thread with this. Best wishes...

I guess you mean well, but you are way off. Understand that what otp described above was quite off the mark of what the actual situation was, as I explained. I actually went out of may way to remove any reference to this person's real identity once I realized what the actual situation was so they could maintain their privacy, so your statements above have no relevance. I was just responding to false statements and insults which I think is well within reason. If someone is going to make insults and false statements, I think I have a right to respond to it. I am going to leave this at that since I have made my response. Best wishes...