The Way Is Virtue

Sounds like good advice to me. In other words, we should all cultivate dao.

It is said that the 'true' dao cannot be named and it is indescribable and greatly mysterious, but apparently can ultimately be experienced, and it is also said that the dao 'in action' is nameable and describable through observation of its ways, laws, and principles, and many forms (the universe and all within it does follow very definite laws and natural ways, for example). The dao in action is what we think of as 'nature' or natural enfoldment, I believe. By aligining ourself more and more with these natural ways and laws and principles and thus becoming more and more 'in tune' with the dao in action, we open ourself more and more to experiencing 'the great mystery'. As an aside, maybe one way of looking at 'de' might be that the degree to which we are truly in alignment with dao is the degree of de we embody. A high degree of embodiment of de would indicate a high degree of alignment with dao, and lower degree of embodiment of de would indicate a lower degree of alignment with dao, (the natural laws and ways and principles). It is also said that everything arises from dao and everything returns to dao. I believe this is described as the law of impermanence in Buddhism. Regarding consciousness, I believe various mystics and sages have indicated that consciousness can and does indeed impact the physical world (and everything else) very much. By aligning ourselves more and more with dao we begin to understand this relationship more and more, and therefore continue to 'refine' ourselves accordingly. This can also be thought of as cultivating de. Of course everything I have written above contains much speculation on my part It is just a description of the current state of an ever evolving (devolving?) picture that I hold in my mind. .

Hi zerostao. Ok, yes I have seen references in various places as well. Have not previously done much reading in the I Ching. Would you or anyone else happen to know of a decent translation that includes all the main commentaries? Would like to tackle that one of these days.

Hi Stig. Thanks for the detailed reply. I will read through more carefully later. Some interesting notes in there. Have to get going to work. I have of course seen the references in the Tao Te Ching that you and Marble have mentioned, and I have seen other references here and there in various contexts, so it appears that this is a fairly important concept in taoism and related areas. I have seen it expressed simply as san he yi, or three unite into one, or three are united as one.

Hi Craig. I have also seen references to man being divided into three layers vertically, with the upper part of the body relating to heaven, the middle part of the body relating to man, and the lower part of the body relating to Earth. Not sure how that is used however.

Hi Friend. Interesting. I would guess that one could find parallels in many things, and also in many methods and views. This is what I am thinking anyway.

Hi Craig. Interesting, thanks. Yes, I think there would be many applications to this concept A 'universal' concept. The words blueprint or template come to mind. Ever run across any texts that delve into this more in depth?

Right, thanks. This is what I have understood as well.

Ok, I personally wouldn't rule out the I Ching as being a taoist text, although whether one sees it or any other text as taoist or not wouldn't concern me either way. I am more interested here in the concept of heaven man and Earth.

Hi Marblehead. You have misread me if you think I was trying to put you down in some way. I wasn't. I have not the slightest interest in trying to put someone down or to slight anyone, and there certainly wouldn't be any point in doing so. I was actually just pointing out why I think it is sometimes put in that order, but it really doesn't matter to me either way what the order is. I am interested in the concept behind this. Also, not sure what you mean about 'alchemical taoism' as I didn't mention that. Thanks for the replies though.

Thanks Steve, I am not well read either. It would seem that the tian-ren-di would have correlation to shen-qi-jing and the unification of shen-qi-jing, in that particualr case. I think the concept can be applied much more broadly than this and in other ways as well.

Hi Marble. Ok, right. I think it might possibly be expressed as Heaven, Man, Earth (tian ren di) because man stands between heaven and Earth. Either way, I am interested in delving more into the concept behind this, which I believe is an important concept in Taoism in general that is applicable beyond just a strict literal interpretation of the words. For example, in man, a microcosm of the macrocosm, we have shen, qi, and jing. I see an apparent correlation there, concept wise. This concept can be applied in many other ways, I believe. I am hoping someone knows of some texts or commentaries on texts that go into more detail about this concept.

I think the Chinese mainly use long grain white rice with their meals, but there are many different brands available. I'm not too fussy so I usually don't worry about the brand, but it might be a good idea to try a few different brands by buying in smaller amounts if possible at first until you find a brand that you really like, and then you can buy in bulk. Someone could say that such and such a brand is the best but as always with food it is ultimately a matter or personal taste.

Ok, thanks. I understand that not everything is meant to be taken literally but instead often applies to an abstract concept that doesn't necessarily directly translate to a physical counterpart.

For those that may be wondering, besides being a professor, Louis Komjathy is also a practicing Taoist. From his website: "In 2006, he received ordination into the Huashan lineage of Quanzhen Daoism and lived as a visiting Daoist monk in the Daoist monasteries of Laoshan 嶗山 (Mount Lao; near Qingdao, Shandong) and Huashan 華山 (Mount Hua; Huayin, Shaanxi)."

Good information exorcist. Thanks for posting. What you are saying would seem to be consistent with what is described in texts such as the Nei Ye and Qing Jing Jing, that this is a natural process that occurs through the turning of the attention inward to cultivate 'stillness'. I would be interested to hear more about what you mean by the consolodating of the five spirits into the Earth. You said the five spirits (five elements) are consolodated through turning the attention of the senses inward, and then genuine intention (Earth) arises. Is genuine intention associated with the spleen then (Earth element) or is Earth here a reference to one's true 'center' and not necessarily related to the spleen? Can you explain more about the concept of genuine intention?

All is good manitou, my friend. Sometimes I just want to try to externalize some thoughts or ideas to see where it might lead, so I do so. I certainly don't take myself or my thoughts too seriously however. If you think I am talking nonsense then feel free to say so. You certainly won't offend me. If we take all the craziness in this world too seriously all the time we may just end up going over the edge. Best wishes and thanks for all your comments. It's been interesting...

Interesting points exorcist. Some yogic traditions from the area of India seem to have similar traditions of using qi/prana in the process of spiritual cultivation and refinement, and they also claim to be able to achieve spiritual liberation and some higher abilites that go along with it, so I don't know that this approach is unique to Taoism although there are likely at least some differences. Even within Taoism as a whole there seem to have been different approaches and views. Regarding the other points others have made, for those that don't allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, then it likely wouldn't make sense to them to worry about anything except trying to make things somewhat better for themself and maybe others as well in this current life in the physical world. For those that do allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, some may believe that what innate abilities and faculties we have within us are quite enough to get us anywhere we need to be and to do anything we need to do without any special action or assistance needed. I don't think it is realistic to blame the world's problems and wars and such all on organized religion, as I think the underlying problem is really human nature. It doesn't seem to matter what the actual beliefs are, wars and other problems and conflicts still occur just the same. For example, some communist countries that had pretty much banned or downplayed the importance of religious practices have still been involved in various wars or conflicts or strong oppression or persecution against some of their own people or others, etc. Despite the belief system human nature still seems to prevail. Greed, ignorance, egotism, intolerance, the need to attack or dismiss that which differs from our own personal views and beliefs, etc., it all still exists, so I agree with Jetsun's comment on this that we may not be in control as much as we would like to think. Different traditions provide different ways of dealing with this and although I personally can't say with certainty whether any of them really succeed or not, that is not in and of itself reason to dismiss these traditions out of hand I don't think. Maybe we really do need help in some ways or at least need a tried and proven approach to adopt to really rise above ignorance, but I don't know. At least in these modern times many of us have the freedom to choose how we live our lives and how we view things both mundane and spiritual. Through the trials of life we have to figure out what seems to work for us and what doesn't. If over time we are just spinning our wheels and really not seeing much improvement then maybe we should stop and consider if we might just be missing something after all. With the decline of religion in the West there does appear to be some decline in moral values and more emphasis being put on the individual self, so it seems religion, or at least some sort of spiritual point of view, can have at least some practical value in this world. It probably doesn't help that there have been various fake masters/gurus/teachers from different traditions or various people who are just out to try to separate people from their money with various gimmicks, as now many people have been turned off by such things and are inclined to be very suspicious now as well. So where does that leave us? I certainly don't have any answers but it does seem that something is still really lacking somehow. Maybe this is just the natural unfolding of the world and everything is at it should be, but still I have to wonder...

Hi Stig. Sounds like a good way to view things. Everyone has their own specific areas and degree of interest, so I guess one has to take such things into account in discussion forums like this. It will be interesting to see how Taoism continues to evolve and be adapted to the circumstances of the modern world. Best wishes...

Hi manitou. I agree with what you are saying, but I really don't think anyone has been implying (here anyway) that there are not different paths or that these different paths necessarily can't have similar or the same goals, and can't produce similar results and understanding. However, it seems to me that different traditions can take quite different approaches and have quite different points of view and even have quite different practices and goals, and so what is contained in one tradition may not always be easily translatable or easily understandable from the point of view of another trandition or culture. I think people are often inclined to make assumptions and value judgements that are based in their own culture and traditions and experience and way of thinking and thus can very easily misunderstand things and may also be inclined to want to dismiss or discard certain aspects of a different tradition as being of little or no value without fully understanding the true purpose and value behind those aspects. In the end talk is just talk and I think what matters more is what brings real meaning and understanding and growth to us and others. We ultimately each have to make our own way and choose what seems right for our self despite what anyone else might have to say or think. Misunderstanding is perhaps in a way a part of the process of growth. Maybe it is inevitable.

Hi manitou. My comments in this reply are not directed to you personally, so please don't take this personally. I do want to try to clarify where I am coming from though so I am using your comment above as a starting point to do that. I personally don't rule out the intuition process in anything. I also certainly would not not try to discourage anyone from reading the various Taoist or other writings and trying to gain what understanding and insights they can from them. What I have been talking about is where people read some of these texts and then seem to think that they then understand what Taoism is all about and what it isn't all about. I see a big difference between trying to gain whatever insights and ideas and understanding one can from the various texts while still keeping in mind that what one may think they understand could actually be incorrect or only superficial or only part of the picture, and one reading such texts and then assuming one understands much of it correctly and deeply and then to also exptrapolate from there and assume one also pretty much understands the core of Taoism as a whole. To me that is a big difference, but unfortunately the second scenario does not appear to be all that uncommon in the West from what I see. Hence my comments. I have little doubt that anyone can pick up and read some of these texts and gain at least some value and insight from doing so, but if such a person were to then start calling themself a Taoist and saying they now understand quite well what Taoism is and what it isn't then I'd say they are likely not being very realistic with themself. My response to this is if it were really as straightforward and easy as all that, why would so many Taoists through the centuries have dedicated themself to rigorous practice and study and service throughout their lives? I guess maybe they were all not so bright and insightful as us modern folk? What a waste that all these poor ignorant people spent their lives in such dedicated practice and service while all we have to do in the modern world is maybe read a few texts, do some qigong and a maybe a few other practices and we already have it all figured out. That is not to say that the practices and concepts necessarily have to be complicated in any way because I don't think they necessarily have to be at all, but the work and dedication that leads one to true understanding (not just the assumptions and fancies of the conscious mind) is real work and requires real dedication and constant self examination and refinement, IMO. Could it be that at least some of the traditional Taoists/Buddhists/Hindus etc. actually have some something real and concrete to contribute if we could just get past some of our own assumptiomns and preconceptions and such? I don't claim to have any definite answers in this regard, but I think it is worth reminding ourselves that maybe we don't have everything quite all figured out yet, and taking some care to not accidentally throw out the baby with the bath water. Best to everone and keep smiling...

Interesting. I hadn't heard of a supermoon before (I just looked it up). I have sometimes noticed changes in my qigong practice during full moons (energy can feel different in some ways). I have sometimes felt a 'softer' and a somewhat 'more healing' kind of energy inside me around full moons, but that is very subjective of course. It will be interesting to see if there is anything particularly different this time around with the moon being a bit closer to the Earth. I'd be interested to hear other people's personal experiences in this regard as well. I'll have to try to remember to pay attention to this around March 19.

Hi robmix. I agree. Some texts may be somewhat more straightforward than others depending on the exact circumstances, but possible problems that can apply to any can be translation issues, misunderstandings that can come from cultural differences, misunderstandings that can arise from the different ways of thinking and communicating and writing in ancient times, texts can potentially have been deliberately altered from the original in some ways, potential transcription errors, was the particular text even meant to be a comprehensive description of a system or concepts or was it just a loose collection of some ideas or deliberately constrained to a very narrow topic for a very specific purpose and such, etc. The bottom line I guess is people have to go with what feels right for them personally, (if they live in times or countries where they have the freedom to make their own choices anyway).

One has to do their own research and go out and meet some of the various teachers and then make up their own mind. I don't think anyone is saying that there are not many different paths and points of view out there. In the end one has to make up their own mind and do what seems right for themself. We each have our own point of view and we each have to make our own choices. That doesn't mean that people can't throw different ideas around for consideration and discussion. Sometimes looking at things from different perspectives helps us to gain some new insights into something, even if they are only small insights. It doesn't mean we have to agree with any or all of those points of view, but I think it doesn't hurt to at least give some consideration to different points of view sometimes.

Ha Ha. Yeah some of his ideas (speculation?) on the origin of the Tao Te Ching do seem to be quite a reach, but I have run across writings from some other current day Taoist scholars who do also seem to at least hold the view that the Tao Te Ching was likely a compilation of various older oral teachings and writings, and does not necessarily originate from one single source. I personally don't pretend to know one way or the other though. I try to keep an open mind and give consideration to all points of view, but there seem to be a whole of points of view about Taoism out there. In the end one really has to go with their own personal gut feelings on what seems right for themself, and I guess that is the bottom line. Some people prefer a teacher, some do not. Some only have a passing or minor interest in such things, others are inclined to want to delve deeper.