Harmonious Emptiness

From what I can tell here, you are not saying that mind does not exist at all. You do admit that it has a reality in its manifestations. It's just the way that you're choosing to make your points end with the sort of disclaimer that all is empty. From my perspective, Lucky would have immense difficulty accepting that you have realized Annata for yourself, no matter what. Ending your points with these type of disclaimers allows Lucky to grab on to them and throw them back at you, and I'm getting the sense that maybe want him to, since the way you add this "disclaimer" sort of hides your thoughts that agree with the "emptiness is form" side of the middle path doctrine. I think you are recognizing existence, but there's sort of like a taboo that you have to add the "non-existence disclaimer" at the end, just for thoroughness sake and not to get pinned down on the other side, outside of the middle path. Because of this tendency, Lucky decides that you are just parroting, not seeing through the disclaimer that seems to paint over the previous statements which did acknowledge the "Existence is of Form" side. So, since Lucky is very concerned that mis-statements are not posted here, he argues against this disclaimer since it seems to read as the concluding point rather than just added for good measure. The other issue being that Lucky has some instinct, possibly because of the disclaimer tendency, that you are just parroting your statements, and so he will continue to argue against anything you back up with sources, but you want other people to be able to investigate the statements from these writings, so Lucky's instincts are alerted. The other issue that perpetuates the misunderstandings is that: Maybe you are, in a way, hiding behind the sources "argue with them (good luck) not me" rather than taking the chance of summoning your own literary genius only to share it with people who don't even want to take it seriously. That would suggest that you are human and not "perfect," but does not on it's own prove that you haven't experienced what those writings talk about, even if you haven't experienced every last level and detail described in them. Anyone else see it this way?

before I try to respond Xabir, this is how you differ in understanding of Mind?

Usually, the more I learn about something, I see more and more how little about it I actually know. Also: 1) Views are often an impediment to understanding, such as the view that we know a lot about something 2) I'm better off not knowing that I know, than not knowing that I don't know, so assuming that I don't know is usually the safest route. Though, having strong instincts is also important, and a sign of a healthy Lungs/Metal/Po spirit according to TCM; but that's probably another conversation.. Also, having good instincts kind of relies on being able to "not know" something, since we don't "know" what we feel, we just feel it and have to be able to work with both not knowing and not denying. It takes a comfortability with not knowing to do this, I believe. I read something once that talked about one's "Mystery Tolerance Threshold" which is our ability to investigate something that we may never understand

So, if you don't mind (lol, npi..), how do the two sides differ in understanding of mind?

That's a good link. Ok, so if all agree: "form is no different to emptiness, emptiness no different to form." Where's the disagreement? Anyone? Or is everyone just trying to learn from each other?

Word. and word isn't Smashes it on the ground to Create something new

The question is the problem. 'Exist' and 'non-exist' are merely terms. The question is similar to asking whether light is a particle or a wave. Consider: In the Buddhist context, form and the 'idea of emptiness' both exist in maya. But when one talks in the context of the ordinary world, form is distinct and meaningful. Emptiness is merely a philosophical idea. When one talks in the context of the Diamond Sutra, form is merely "a manner of speaking", not truth. So we both exist and don't exist. One must become comfortable with paradox, or it's hard to move. The question is the problem. 'Exist' and 'non-exist' are merely terms. The question is similar to asking whether light is a particle or a wave. Consider: In the Buddhist context, form and the 'idea of emptiness' both exist in maya. But when one talks in the context of the ordinary world, form is distinct and meaningful. Emptiness is merely a philosophical idea. When one talks in the context of the Diamond Sutra, form is merely "a manner of speaking", not truth. So we both exist and don't exist. One must become comfortable with paradox, or it's hard to move. So you basically agree with what I said, though we could argue about Emptiness being more than a philosophical idea. I personally see Emptiness similar to The Taiji (Great Ultimate) and "God" being the life that runs through everything. Emptiness sounds ultimately the same.. not so "Nothingness" since Emptiness is still Emptiness and their wouldn't be Form without It. That's not necessarily here nor there, it's just a perception. However, still waiting for Xabir to answer, since it seems most would agree with my earlier statement. Though that may put an unfortunate end to this 20plus page playground

Correct me if I'm wrong ( like I needed to say that) but there seems to be a lack of "middle path" here. Form is of Emptiness, Emptiness is in Form. People seem to be leaning to extremes on both sides of this, and denying the other. Yes, the ultimate nature of form is Emptiness, but form, coming from Emptiness, is also Emptiness, no? So saying that we exist or not, even our form is a manifestation of Emptiness. So saying that we do not exist, nil, nada, no-how, is not Buddhism, since Buddhism recognizes the one-ness of Form and Emptiness which is the "Middle Path." I mistakenly used the terms "nihilism vs. eternalism" to say this earlier, but this is what I was getting to..

I'm wondering what some of you all might do in practice when it comes to healthful eating. Maybe share some of your most common recipes that make you feel pure and strong. Even better if they are easy and quick. Myself, I have been eating a lot of vegan gruel, lol. But it's good. Boil up some lentils, add some prepared black beans, chickpeas, (optional potatoes, hemp seeds, fried tofu), add Chana Masala seasoning (highly recommended, from Indian specialty stores) and a bit of curry powder. Served with quinoa and salad.

Thanks for your contribution Eto, and especially for that link! I'm not fully vegan, but I still think it's possible to be a healthy vegan when it's done right. Most people just cut out the meat and dairy without doing a complete overhaul of cooking habits. I know someone who did some type of test when she was pregnant to make sure that she was healthy, and she passed with flying colours, despite being vegan for 10 years. However, she and her husband are both incredible cooks. Their TCM organ balance might show differently though.. One really difficult thing to balance is Caclium:Phosphorus which should be at a 1cal:0.5phos ratio to absorb the calcium. Most food people consume regularly is super phosphorus heavey, especially corn at a 1:12 ratio. This link is good to note, since calcium has a lot to do with nerve, glands, and preventing osteoporosis and cavities: http://www.parrottalk.com/calcium-phosphorus-content.htm It's a site for parrot owners, but it works the same for people

This topic went way too pedantic etc for me to take seriously, sorry to say so, but I'm wondering.. maybe someone will dish me the coles notes of it.. how is all this not falling to the nihilistic gutter on the side of Buddhas middle path exactly? A la nihilism vs. eternalism.. It seems the "shout downs" are opposed to the nihilism, but the nihilism shouldn't be there, sewwwwww..

Underwater? You must run or something...

I guess you can see that the respondents are really left to guess what you mean by yin and yang qi, lol. I'm thinking that you mean yang as energizing, and yin as grounding? Or maybe somewhat as yang being more in the spiritual/emotional/mental development, and yin in the physical development?

Just going to throw in here that, from my perspective, perceiving that everything is non-existent and Empty is the same as perceiving that they are full of Tao, that God is in everything. Our bodies appear to be bodies, but really they come from Tao, they come from God, they come from the Emptiness. 3 different but, effectively, identical epiphanies

Nice catch Deci Belle! I picked up a classical music for guitar book up from the library the other day and noticed that one in there. Some of that stuff is really cool when you play it with the wrong timing and such.. lol..

ooo, ooo, I have another opinion.. Though wind might be bad by TCM, it also says that if heat gets in you too much you will get chills, if cold gets in you too much you will get fevers. So it's not good to suffer in the heat either. What I do when the room is too humid where the fan is barely doing the trick is to face the fan out the window. This blows the hot air out of the room, and stops some of the hot air from coming in. Just make sure that the screen is clean so it can pull the air from behind. The Native Americans had a very close connection to wind and felt it was cleansing. This is one culture that always had incredible healing knowledge too. An electric fan is not necessarily the same thing though as it has no real "life" behind it (not the time to get into the form of the formless form now. words okay. w-or-dzzzu. lol).

It is quite a dance, yesssurreee

No riverness?! Then what's THIS??

That I've yet to pick Where's my pen it's so far in More potato please

I was recently reading the letters of Zen master Ta Hui. One of them was to a political official who asked whether he has to "leave home." Ta Hui said that there is less chance of him 'getting there' from high position, but that his foundation will be stronger than that of people who "leave home" since he will have managed to do so in more difficult circumstances, whereas others might falter being thrown into his position after attaining The Way in easier circumstances. This has mostly been my view as well. That if I'm going to 'make it' it has to be done in the midst of The Shit. That is where I live, so that's where I need to Soar. Though it's nice to learn how to fly before jo mamma pushes you out the tree just my spare change, all truth will be spent on crack

Here is a recent discussion topic on Daoist De from the Dao De Jing forum. It's a long one (inside joke.. u'll see ) http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19499-laozis-de/

The weed thing sort of sounds like when I quit smoking. I felt really odd not having a cigarette in my hand, until I realized that the cigarette (maybe for you the buzz) was a social crutch that allowed me to distance myself from the situation or lack of conversation. What worked for me was to involve myself in conversation -- to get into the situation and make it something rather than avoiding it. It took some effort but I quit a 7 year habit cold turkey and never went back. It sounds like part of your pressures also comes from haters. This one simple fact has made haters pretty much a non-issue for me: Haters try to make fun of people for shit that they themselves would be embarrassed about. When I thought about it, I soon realized "I'm not the one that gives a shit about this. They care, and so they make fun of me for it, but they are the ones that care, not me." Realizing this with compassion for them is better than laughing at them, btw k. I got some work to do. Peace..

no difference in the implicit meaning, which is what Shaman Flowing Hands eloquently displays in his translation