Harmonious Emptiness

Yes, that text goes into it very much. To start, I would actually recommend skipping ahead to about chapter 5 and going from there, since the first few chapters take a while to get into it, imho. Here is a good quote from chapter 5: "By the cessation of the sense-minds is meant, not the cessation of their perceiving functions, but the cessation of their discriminating and naming activities which are centralised in the discriminating mortal-mind. By the cessation of the mind-system as a whole is meant, the cessation of discrimination, the clearing away of the various attachments, and, therefore, the clearing away of the defilements of habit-energy on the face of Universal Mind which have been accumulating since beginningless time by reason of these discriminations, attachments, erroneous reasonings, and following acts. The cessation of the continuation aspect of the mind-system as a whole, takes place when there is the cessation of that which supports the mind-system, namely, the discriminating mortal-mind. With the cessation of mortal-mind the entire world of maya and desire disappears. Getting rid of the discriminating mortal-mind is Nirvana. But the cessation of the discriminating-mind can not take place until there has been a "turning-about" in the deepest seat of consciousness. The mental habit of looking outward by the discriminating-mind upon an external objective world must be given up, and a new habit if realising Truth within the intuitive-mind by becoming one with Truth itself must be established. Until this intuitive self-realisation of Noble Wisdom is attained, the evolving mind-system will go p. 97 on. But when an insight into the five Dharmas, the three self-natures, and the twofold egolessness is attained, then the way will be opened for this "turning-about" to take place. With the ending of pleasure and pain, of conflicting ideas, of the disturbing interests of egoism, a state of tranquillisation will be attained in which the truths of emancipation will be fully understood and there will be no further evil outflowings of the mind-system to interfere with the perfect self-realisation of Noble Wisdom." So as I see it, no mind is realizing that the self and mind is like a stream of water. Its not the same stream, the same water. It changes. Knowing this allows some to let go of attaching to and neurotically defending the identity and self since they can not be grasped any more than than "the river" the river is always changing. You can grab some water here and there, but forget about defending the whole thing, since it is not there to defend in reality. -edit: no that doesn't cut it. There is also after passing that stage, seeing the way you exist is in a huge way the same as everything exists, and that everything is kind of floating on this surface of change, but that this surface is just a surface, some kind of reflection, and under that reflection everything is water.- The best we can do to describe this is with words, but its the personal realization that we need to realize. Sorry Ralis et all --- Vaj, maybe you'll sit this one out so we don't get noise complaints ?

What I recommended was that you read about it for yourself in the original sources, Sutras. Based on your total disregard for the concept it appeared you have not. Did you read any of the Sutras regarding no-self? What impression did they leave you with?

I've never been on the RT website. You just seem like you want to know something greater (which is why you were involved with RT) and I seem to have made the mistake of trying to help someone who doesn't feel they need or want to be. Sorry if I don't get into trying to explain existence in this post. Take a look at the Lankavatara Sutra in my first post in this topic. I don't know if all of that detail will mean anything to you, but I suspect it might not and I don't see the value of trying to provide anything more in depth, understandable, and detailed. My experience of this does not require validation, measure, acceptance, or understanding from other people, though it's cool when you relate to the same references. Right now, I don't get the impression that you have those references to accept or reject, so I'm not trying to prove their existence for you. Make up your own mind. The only reason I came in with some come backs is to try to make you question your method of judgement and maybe have you think twice before jumping to negative conclusions and throwing around your accusations. I'm not perfect. I still have the reflex to shove mirrors in vampires faces. Unfortunately, that can just keep me from getting to where I'm going to, and I've been bitten once or twice in the process

Okay...

Well Informer, it's not too late to look into it for yourself rather than falling for a delusion and stopping at that... Look how sorely you want/wanted to prove that no-one else is capable of achieving what you were unable to do. See the delusion, the envy, and the arrogance that will prevents you from truly Great Wisdom. The greatest delusion and ignorance is to believe we know that which we do not know. I believe this is the mother of Arrogance. And that Arrogance is then the mother of envy and jealousy when we are in so deep that we cannot be joyful for someone who succeeds. Look before you learn http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

DUDE! You really want Seth to prove this to somebody who doesn't even believe that no-self is POSSIBLE? If BUDDHISM didn' convince you.. Well, Seth, I do enjoy the responses...

Just to be clear, in quoting the sutra I was just trying to show that, as an enlightening experience, realizing no-self is only one of many and so it really isn't worth debating as if you were claiming to be Enlightened, since it is like 1 credential compared to the dozen or so of the other monks who were still in the process of their development. Also showing all of the other attainments of these monks, that this one attainment is not so incredibly difficult to accept that someone has realized. saying that "many people would consider these monks enlightened several times over" is true, most would, but they still were yet to learn no-self, and as you yourself acknowldedge, you still have many steps to go. Putting great awakening in double capitals might have be misleading or easily misunderstood, but realizing no-self is usually considered a major step in the door. This is more in response to Informer, but as I've stated before, most of what people consider enlightenment nowadays is really preparation or "stream entry" to higher knowledge. Maybe I didn't need to be so gentle about saying so.. just didn't want to come across acting like anyone had to prove anything to me.

A realization is not necessarily Buddhahood, but a realization nonetheless. Before Shakaymuni spoke about the "No-Self" being talked about here, he recognized the following attributes of the monks he was about to speak to: "A great many Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas had miraculously assembled from all the Buddha-lands, and a large number of bhikshus were gathered there. The Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas with Mahamati at their head were all perfect masters of the various Samadhis, the tenfold Self-mastery, the ten Powers, and the six Psychic Faculties. Having been anointed by the Buddha's own hands, they all well understood the significance of the objective world; they all knew how to apply the various means, teachings and disciplinary measures according to the various mentalities and behaviors of beings; they were all thoroughly versed in the five Dharmas, the three Svabhavas, the eight Vijnanas, and the twofold Egolessness." He then went on to show them about no-self. Were these monks enlightened already? Several times over most would say. Even the 2nd patriarch, decided by Shakyamuni himself to lead, was a couple steps down from the Buddha himself.. A Great Awakening may not be the be-all-end-all of enlightenment, but it's a huge step, as it was even for the monks above. However, feel free to test the validity. It's not for me to answer this one..

I was hesitant to put it in since as Seth, and the sutra, is saying, "just look!" It's easy to get caught up in the authority of the sutra, especially if we have not already experienced what it teaches, and coming from the "cult-mind" mentalities that society imprints so many of us with. Sometimes its better to push the finger out of the way if you want to see the moon... or something

just thought I would put this here for further reading "..avoid the erroneous reasonings of the philosophers and seek this self-realisation of Noble Wisdom." LANKAVATARA SUTRA http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bb/bb07.htm Relating this experience and success is inspiring to look deeper, and deeper, and then deeper, and then deeper still. So, thanks H.E.

He should read Daniel Reid's book on the subject which gives a much broader context of this practice within ancient Chinese culture. Chia's book is more advanced, and thus more often a Run Fire Enter Demon situation, ime. The key is gradual at every stage, and even more gradual at higher stages. Like everything: patience, perseverance, practice.

Yeah, I think that at least at a moderate level some basic understanding/awareness/respect for sexual energy is good since popular culture thrives on inviting people to squander their desires. It gives a higher respect for sexual union (when not a selfish vamping), making it a more spiritual act that requires a control of self that many lack. There is a misunderstanding that many have however, that a lusty nature is a sign of health. The Yellow Emperor says that "strong passions reduce and exhaust the emanations, whereas a moderate passion strengthens the emanations and makes them fertile. Strong passion consumes its emanations, whereas the emanations feed a moderate flame of lust... (book 2)."

Oh okay. That's part of "Transmission of the Light." I did read most of the Cleary translation a few years ago. I think I stopped because I found it was more fantastical description than understandable, but I would like to look at it again (it's in another city right now) since reading that Liu I Ming also regarded this as a primary Ch'an teaching.

Yes, most of the almost radical focus changes for Ch'an seem to have been motivated by sermons from Boddhidarma who was Indian. There is are also entirely zen-like elements in Hinduism though there is great debate on who influenced who. Having read a translation of Boddhidharma and a translation of Hui Neng, I personally find Hui Neng's instruction to be a bit more clarified and thus easier to practice. Either way, they are both illucidating the same source of inspiration. Again, is Ch'an Buddhism pronounced as "Ch'an" in Chinese? I can't really see how the word came to stand for dhyana when there is already a word "Ch'an" and so many other sanskrit words remain unmodified.

Is Run descriptive of the fire, or could mean "Running into the fire (with fire of desire) allows demon to enter"? This sounds like the example with video games, and with Taoist Alchemy, that someone runs into it with haste and desire and this allows them to be possessed by - the video game, or the energy/fire, or by demons of desire.

Ripples lap the shore Sun warms the sand. Water cools All One Symphony

I think the ideas are there to relate to the person's experience. Surely there will be a better understanding knowing the original Chinese with the word associations, but the ideas are not Chinese ideas, the translations point to things that exist in every mind. It's only because they're in the mind that one can see them, etc.. I have two translations for The Sutra of Hui Neng and the ideas presented are the same in each, though they have different ways of structuring or presenting the ideas, mainly one being more concise while the other more detailed.

to paraphrase Bear Heart: "It's the last thing that anyone will ever do, so why not do it with honor and integrity." I think it was in the Bagavad Gita that one's emotional/spiritual state at the time of transition will determine much of the outcome.

Who wrote "Summary on how to transmit the Heart of Buddha"? Also, when did Cha'an come about as a word for dhyana? I mean, the Chinese could pronounce every other sanskrit word with some accuracy. Why would this word be so far off? Do the Chinese use the word Ch'an to describe Ch'an Buddhism? I understand dhyana/non-attachment is central to Ch'an Buddhism, but the word transiteration doesn't seem consistent with others..

Thanks for clarifying that. Glad TTB is available for stuff like that. There is a lot about dhyana as well in this sutra. Maybe I can post some about that later. I do find this part very helpful, nonetheless though. If one can repent of these things and vow not to do them in the future they will be on their way to "no-self" imo+e.

Good point. I've heard heard someone call it "modern superstition" but really, it's just another way of using "faith" in the same way that Christianity (and others) has been recommending all along. Actually, the person that I heard term it "modern superstition" was a devout Christian, so that was a bit ironic

Are you eating a lot of meat? That can cause some of these things. Do you do qi gong? I would recommend doing some. 5 treasures is great -- brings in lots of positive energy to all 3 dantiens, and has a nice balance of purging/gathering energy. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1572962536605659291# I've posted this link quite a bit, but it's good, and resembles some of the general movements of many other systems. Depending on the system or teacher you're following, ejaculation retention is not necessarily detrimental. What I've taken from reading is that you just need to find you personal balance. If you have a partner there's a lot more flexibility, and age is also a determining factor, but find out what your personal range is. If you have the same energy while doing retention for less time, then it's probably okay. Some people feel tired and down if they lose it more than once a couple times a week. Some people are run out if they lose it more than once a month. You might have different instructions, but this is a more laymen approach to it. It's good to be at peak physical energy, but being all pent up can cause other issues which make it more difficult to stabilize the spirit, and that might be worse. Some people are better able to manage, but it's something to consider. Abdominal breathing and qi gong can help bring back the energy balance too. You might be overdoing the retention, but that's something for you and your instructor to decide. If you're on a path/program for some seriously high level stuff, then I wouldn't be the one to give you advice about this...

Just wanted to say you might also want to add red clover (estrogenic and infection fighting) and rasberry leaves (vitamins/minerals, and stengthens and tones lower body organs + kidneys and urinary tract) to the tea. I suggest talking to a herbalist first, just as a disclaimer, but these herbs are very benign and the only issue might be if you are taking other medications or have allergies. They would also be able to give a better dosage recommendation to make it work better and faster, but once or twice a day should be alright. If nothing else was working, consider this. This combination helps the ovaries, reduces inflammation, and dries up nasty stuff -- all things you want to do right now. At least if the inflammation and fluid is reduced you might have time to see if they will get better before they need to be removed. It's recommended to pray/intend when you prepare herbs at least to help the body become receptive to the medicine. Using the tea can also help to focus the "intentions" while you're drinking it. edit: oh, and you have to let herbs steep for 20 minutes to get their medicinal effects.

My pleasure. Has been an fun thread... glad you asked

Hi Josama First of all, congrats on kicking the habit and rapid progress. Sounds like you have some real energy awareness. I think it would be safe to say that it's time to move that store of energy from the sacrum to the middle dantien/heart chakra. Sitting with feet flat on the floor (possibly for grounding, but feel free to experiment with lotus position if you can do it, or standing; of course relaxed shoulders, straight back, ears above shoulders). Hold the palms together, thumbs touching, in prayer form over heart chakra/middle dantien, spread out the fingers like a lotus flower. Move the energy from the sacrum up to the dantien, up the 3rd chakra and then to the heart center where you will radiate generosity, love, care, compassion, and virtue.