Harmonious Emptiness

I believe one must know Renunciation before it is truly renounced. And this doesn't mean that one must know hot-dogs before one renounces hot-dogs. I take the last chapter of The Surangama literally. I don't follow it loyally.

Agreed. I would add to that, too, that our experience can be made immensely richer through an experienced guide, leading us to the experience or knowledge that we need to experience for ourselves in order to truly understand it.

Walking through the market is different from selling, negotiating, and competing in the market. The responsibilities of this are highly un-conducive to achieving Nirvana. We can still do innumerable wonderful things without Renunciation, but, regardless of how it may make us feel about ourselves, we won't make it to the other shore without the correct vehicle. That's the doctrine that I have chosen to accept. I agree that it is possible for laymen to be able to see through ignorance and live without attachment, but, uncomfortable as it might make people, The Teachings go further than that and are more difficult to adhere to throughout the day, every day, every feeling, every thought, when we have (noble as they may be) "worldly" responsibilities. That doesn't make everyone a bad person, it just means that they are not Buddhas. Just like, I can probably tell you various natural treatments for numerous ailments, that might make me extremely helpful in certain instances, but it doesn't make me a naturopathic doctor.

It states quite unequivocally in Buddhist sutras that one must give up all comforts to reach Nirvana. To live with nothing of your own and give back your example of Attainment in return for your food. Including participation in the economy, worldly social ties, and family. Nobody has to agree with this or believe it or understand it. That's just what it says, and what I have come to believe to be true for myself.

Even Buddhism teaches to, in a way, embrace suffering in order to transcend it, and sometimes as a way to erase karmic debt, and to develop compassion for all sentient beings. Renunciation seems to have more importance in Buddhism than in Taoism, and the attitude towards sex is also, perhaps, irreconcilable. The goal of transcending reincarnation in the two may be a bit different. From what I have read, thus far, it seems that the Buddhist goal is to disappear after death. Hopefully someone else can shed some insight on this, but there may also be a view that Buddhas can intervene after death. I'm not totally sure on that one. The Taoist goal seems to be a bit more of taking one's existing spirit and consciousness into the The Great Tao where they may stay at will. Am I way off there? Either way, for myself, I don't see that I will attain either without Renunciation, and so try to apply their teachings to develop wisdom, compassion, serenity, and health in this life, and hopefully to help others do the same whenever appropriate or possible (without assuming that I've attained something I have not, or trying to lead other to believe such things). Maybe next time, or the time after that, or after, after, after, after, after, after, after that

The Truth, (cap. T).. I guess that would be, if it's only ONE thing, some kind of spiritual light that knows all and sees all, which some people manage to tap in to or communicate with. We think we know reality, but when we tap in to this we realize that everything is connected and everything can be known. How do you convince others? How do you convince a cat that cars run on gasoline? Truth, otherwise, I would say is sincerity. Being sincere and following your gut as to who you are. Not cow towing with the rest of the herd, accepting modes of behaviour, belief, attitudes, perspectives, speech. Being sincere, we can know the truth of who we are. Once this is disregarded, we can't know the difference between real and falseness in our own behaviour/actions and so are separated from who we truly are. This would also be the first step to being inaccessible to harmony with a more macrocosmic Truth. My favourite writing on sincerity is Chuang Tzu's "The Old Fisherman."

Here's a link to great instructional video of Five Treasures Qi Gong. It will probably be a very vivid experience in your current state. It should help to ground/calm you, and to circulate up, down, and out, the energy that you feel you need to release, while bringing in positive. The movements are very easy, very relaxing, and a very good way to enter the concepts of Qi Gong if your new to them. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1572962536605659291# For what it's worth, I would avoid eating meat and try to give your body healthier food. You can get tons of protein from nuts and soy milk (a cup of soy milk has nearly the same protein as a small steak). Though you might not want to let the experience go too far, you could pacify it by giving it what it wants -- lots of goodness Still going for a run and other hard exercise sounds like a good idea.

lol, I knew we could count on you that is very helpful. So it sounds like maybe I have been doing MCO, but Kundalini would be a more dramatic realization/experience. My dad had a spontaneous born again experience 20 some years ago and totally cleaned up his attitude towards everything.. so sounds like more of the awakening (I personally wouldn't equate it to full Enlightenment in the Buddhist sense) experienced by highly successful KAP. I'm given to "conscious" living, 0 loyalty veganism, and the like, but I know I've only been dipping my feet in the ocean, not ready to be a merman. Could you tell me where I might find more about Kan and Li or Nei Shen Gung Fu tradition? Always appreciated!

I'm not sure if I've opened my kundalini or not. Maybe I'll learn somthing for myself here. When I sit in zazen posture, the instructions are to keep the eyes slightly open, but I close my eyes because I feel a nice healing energy running up to my pineal gland or there abouts. To keep the sensation from being overly strong I will let it fall down the front. I'm not totally sure if this is doing microcosmic orbit meditation, since I've never had a formal teacher on this, but it does feel very blissful, like my glands have opened and sweet juices are going through my channels. At times this sensation is much more intense and it will shoot up and slowly fall down the front, shoot up and then slowly fall down the front. I sometimes have to do sort of a head twitch, or better -- a head twitch manifests of it's own, to allow the energy to pass beyond my neck and behind my head. I started to notice this rather soon after meditating with a very erect posture. I also breath more a Warrior's Breath to move the energy as well. Zazen is supposed to be with a quiet Scholars Breath, but I felt this to be a great sensation which could only be improving circulation and gland function so I just go with it. I also wonder what the difference is between kundalini and chi energy. Hopefully ShaktiMama will swoop in soon *flashes signal ****

Okay, good. In regards to the discussion, I'll really have to just agree to disagree, since you won't be swayed by anything less than empirical evidence, and I won't deny that there is so much that happens, especially in healing, which science is at a total loss to explain or produce similar results. At the same time, it is interesting to know some of the physiological goings on with Qi Gong, in terms of oxygenation of the blood and, you said something about glucose level? I suppose this would be the physical manifestation of Chi circulation (in my unwavering opinion). I saw one of the links you posted earlier. Whachu got about ATP?? (you down with ATP? Yeah you know Chi! -- I hope somebody here knows the song )

I don't have a huge amount of new advice. What's been said is true, that you need to make sure you know who YOU are before going and following a guru. As I repeated in a different topic, if you don't have that frame of reference from which to accept or reject what you are taught then you are in danger of being hugely manipulated. Plus, you need this frame of reference to know that you have found the right guru, because once you do know unequivacally that this guru has infallible perception about you - you will have to follow what he tells you to do, and a lot of that will be very difficult and potentially useless if you have not fully resolved your skepticism in a balanced way beforehand. The other thing I will put in is that he may have said "don't have any expectations" because he won't want someone coming up to him like "I came all the way over here to see you so now teach me, you owe me (I own you)!" Have some other reasons to go there so you're not too reliant on him making the trip for you, that is, if you know you want to learn what you know he has to teach you. And of course, don't assume you know what he will teach you. Paradoxical, yes, but you'll have to get used to that. Best

Well, really, ATP already exists in my body. I'm not going to achieve the wonders of Qi Gong by studying ATP and there is some chance if I study Qi Gong, so I'm gonna stick with Qi Gong to build ATP or whatever you want to call it, 'cause Qi Gong knows what science only wants to. When science catches up and explains it all, great, whoopdeedoo, give them a pat on the back and let them act like they "discovered" something by following a 5000 year old path, Lol. In the meantime, just 'cause these neophyte scientists don't understand something that's way beyond their frame of analysis doesn't mean it aint true. It just means that they haven't found a way to put a fancy new name on it and create patent royalties for some slobs feeble imitation. CD, I hope this discussion will chill a bit. Remember "when you argue on the internet, it doesn't matter who wins or loses, because only losers argue on the internet." Let's not allow this to turn into an argument. The saying is not directed at you -- I'm sure you fully agree with it. I just don't want to be one of those people

Dan Millman: Living as a Peaceful Warrior (excerpt) - Thinking Allowed w/ Jeffrey Mishlove Gives some more perspective on our situations, I believe. It's all talk (rather than application and practice), but it might be useful.

Practice simple forms of Qi Gong. You will get a better grasp of the feeling of circulation, it will slow your pulse, and allow you channel that energy throughout your body in a healing manner. A good one that I started with is Five Treasures Qi Gong. You can find a good demo online. Best

There are some personalities that I've learned to just be "live and let live" towards. Trying to show them the mistake of their overly emotional and overly rational/irrational ways of life will come to no avail but forcing them deeper into their position. Since they have not developed any other mode of action, they would be totally lost and so will fight to the end before they give up the only ground they can stand on. We can't have everyone think like us. There might even be something to learn from this person if they are so different -- they might even provide some balance to your perspective if there's room for further balance. Unfortunately, they're not in a place that is conducive to a positive acceptance of your philosophy so they in their circumstances may even be better to stay with what they know. Think of it like a Western boxer. We know that kung-fu is far more effective, but to get that person to drop boxing and use what little experience they have with kung-fu would result in their defeat. What you need to decide, possibly, is whether you want to continue sparring with a boxer. Maybe you'll learn something you didn't know. On the other hand you might loose what you know if you have to follow their style. Or you may tire of such, comparatively, undeveloped strategy. That is your decision to make

Lol, you were the one that said TCM was a bunch of BS, no? And hasn't Western science identified Chi as bio-electric energy? Has science explained how Qi Gong masters can elevate the temperature in their hands to near boiling? It really makes no difference what science books say, because there are plenty of lesser known examples of shamanic healing that defies all scientific explanation other than "we don't get it so it could only have been coincidence." I'm glad that you are committed to upholding truthful standards, but there's some stuff that doesn't need science to prove it's reality, whether science's "we're always right" super-ego can handle it or not.

Well, like the article said at the end, we're all free to believe whatever we want, but Western science can't explain why TCM works when it does work either, so I think science, as always, has some catching up to do.

just wondering which sutra you read Shakyamuni Buddha recommending hedonistic pleasure. In this regard I've only seen discourse referring to not being overcome by the senses so as to maintain Liberation. edit: I know that hedonism is not necessarily reckless indulgence, but, nonetheless.

Question: If you don't believe in TCM and Chi, why you call yourself Chi Dragon? You believe in Chi but not meridians, chi flow, energy transferrence, internal power, energetic healing? I mean, that's fine, but your explanation might be a worthwhile read..

There's some things I would need to know to justify giving any advice or opinion. I'll understand if you don't want to broadcast though. 1) how do you know this person? 2) what is their issue? 3) what do you suggest? Personally, if I see someone is happier to be unhappy, as is not uncommon to internet ranters, I let them be unhappy since that's what they're trying to achieve and I can't do them any better service in trying to ruin their unhappiness I can't really assume to have any answers here without the context, however.

I'll just say that if you're interested to study Buddhism, start with "Gospels of the Buddha: From Ancient Records" translated by Carus and Suzuki. It's a good base to know where Cha'an and Zen writings were coming from, since the more well known Cha'an and Zen focus on no-mind/Dhyana but don't talk much about the Morality/Kindness/Character/Wisdom teaching that is arguably even more integral. Most of the Cha'an writing assumed that the reader already spent their time reading these sutras and so doesn't get into teachings that the monks were studying first. Alright, peace. It's been a trip. Whoops!. sorry.

For some reason I thought you were talking about a child there before. It's an interesting puzzle. Maybe a bit more info is needed though. What is it that they are stuck in their ways about? edit: oh yeah, it was the title. pbbbbbbbb lol.

edited to shorted quote [why are we so insecure about justifying our lack of auto-writing, btw?] What can I say? I sympathize. I've thought about just doing the Homeless Brother thing. It's pretty serious, and feels semi-immoral towards our loved ones who we would be truly abandoning, but is stated for obvious reasons to be the only True Way to True Realization. One of the many reasons it is stated necessary is that we will learn to live with interdependence. This can be also be realized in a regular job, since we depend on numerous people in most jobs - we can destroy our super-ego and truly appreciate them for helping us. That's all I got for you man. Good luck. Lol.

No, no. I mean that sounds like a progressive realization -- that obsession with this ideal is basically another attachment and counter-intuitive or counterproductive. It means your figuring stuff out on your own which is what you need to do since you'll be lost if you don't have any reference point from which to learn or reject what is taught to you. What is your familiarity with Buddhism and Taoism, btw? What have you been reading? Did you study with someone?

Yeah man, that sounds good. The important thing for anyone is to see the truth that works for them, at that time, in that place, including the implication of their actions on the future and those around them. It went well with the psychotherapist? Care to share any of his or her insights on this conundrum?