Harmonious Emptiness

I'm not 100% sure what you mean there Yes, this is the line of commentary that prevails regarding the chapter. I agree with him that it regards a decension of values, but but the mode by which this comes about is the point of contention. The rest of his commentary appear to be mostly presumptions based on his reading of this chapter. Just to note, this is referring to the beginning of the chapter, which we are in agreement on as to overall meaning. I would say that this is accounted for as well with: "When justice(in the heart)/righteousness is lost, then social customs (are lost). 夫interjection/now!, 禮social customs 者there (!). (When) 忠loyalty("centered heart") and 信sincerity ("person's words") 之have 薄weakness，而then (there will be) 亂disorder 之's 首beginning." [Note that 而 is used here without "後follows" (as in 而後 then follows/and then) when saying "then disorder's beginning (arises)." ] It's as though he's saying "夫that said! 禮social customs 者formerly (that we were talking about). Just be sure that they do not descend into false/thin(/surface) types of loyalty and sincerity, for then there will be disorder." surrounding "social customs with 夫fu and 者zhe works to separate it from the preceding flow of thought, so that the continuation of the sentence isn't necessarily in reference to the words before it.

Well, with the modern resources available that allow one to instantly look up characters in a variety of classical phrase usages and compounds, Pulleyblank's excellent and helpful "Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar," and instant access to dozens of previous translations, and online etymology dictionaries, I'm not complaining.

It would be difficult to prove that the meaning of the individual characters override the use a compound character. Like words, the compounded meanings can not always be assumed to have the same meaning as the two meanings did in earlier times when the language and written language was still in early stages of changes. However, the words 而後 [er2hou4] mean literally, separately, "then follows." Because there is much sparcity of grammatical articles in Classical Chinese, people assumed that De's appearance in the sentence without articles simply meant that "De appears/there is De" as this phrasing is also a grammatical style that appears in the DDJ. Or perhaps there are more than one or two meanings here. Early in the chapter, The Venerable Master says that 上德無為而無以為 "Highest virtue does not have to be forced, and in this absence (of force) there is force." So here we have the carry over of meaning from the previous words (perhaps like "Dao is lost, and then De (is lost)"), AND the appearance of a character meaning that it exists. What I'm talking about is "而無以為." "Highest virtue is without force, 而無以為 and (this) absence (of force) brings force." note: 以 appearing before a word generally connotes "in order to," which would sometimes be spoken in English as "brings (about)," as in "以為 brings force." So here you can see how wu 無 appears alone in the sentence, while carrying unwritten meaning from the previous statement which is required for it to hold it's intended meaning in the sentence. This sparcity of words and carrying of meanings is one of the most difficult things about translating the ancient texts, in my experience, because it's not uncommon to see a word which for someone who is used to English grammatical style or modern Mandarin, seems to be missing the rest of the sentence. [edit for clarity: 上德無為而無以為 "Highest virtue absent of force and absence brings force"] What this phrase also shows is the use of 以yi when saying "resulting in/brings." Yi does not appear in the phrase 失道而後德 "Dao is lost, and then De." If 以yi did appear in this sentence, it would have said 失道以德 "Loss of Dao, yi/brings De." Again, this sentence structure was used earlier in the chapter to say "absence (of the need to force virtue) brings about 以yi force." So why not use it again? 以Yi is such a common article that it's easy to overlook it's function and necessity, and may well be omitted at times in favour of sparcity of words. However, it is used so commonly, even in this chapter, that it does seem natural, to me, to use it when saying "失義而後禮 loss of justice (results in) formalities." Then, as well, when simply looking at the context and flow of meaning, "loss of justice/righteousness is followed by (the loss of) formalities" makes much better sense (imo) as "loss of justice/righteousness is followed by (the loss of) formalities." When there is no justice/righteousness, there are no trials, due process, etc. There is just mob mentality. Then there is the last few lines: "Thus it is that the Great man abides by what is solid, and eschews what is flimsy; dwells with the fruit and not with the flower. It is thus that he puts away the one and makes choice of the other" (Legge trans.). With the usual translation of the chapter, it is assumed these lines mean that the virtues are simply "flowers upon other flowers." The lines might even appear out of place when assuming that "and then" means "brings about/causes." However, they join together the early and later thoughts of the chapter, the early message showing how the virtues are later lost, which is by having to force them - not being able to let them go and have them still be there. "Highest virtue has force without force." 下德不失德, 是以無德。上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為 Lowest virtue does not let go of/lose virtue, thereby it is without virtue. Highest virtue (is) without force (does not need to be forced), and (it is this) absence (of force which) brings (it's) force; (it is) lowest virtue's (own) force that gives it force." [to explain my translation here of 下德為之而有以為 meaning "(it is) lowest virtue's (own) force that gives it force," -- 之 creates a possessive article for 德為, then followed by "and having the result of wei," so it is the force of the virtue which has之 "the result有 of having force." You sort of need to read the sentence backwards in order to see the possessive function of it. Maybe there's some connection to this grammatical style and the fact that Chinese writing is read from right to left, starting with the opposite neural-visual movement/direction when writing! Maybe this indicates a more "right hemisphere" way of thinking, looking and moving left when writing?] So when you lose Dao, you lose the virtue which has force without force. Then the other virtues fall like dominoes until there is weakness of sincerity and loyalty, followed by chaos. The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor had some significant parts about the danger to a leader of not knowing "the true words/reputations/names of things." Weakness of sincerity and loyalty would surely be at the root of ministers giving false information and misleading the leader in this way. Similarly, Huang Di explains that male action is boastful and ends in disaster while female conduct is modest and results in success. Once again, the boasting, false reputation, leads to disaster. This we see in the tapestry of meaning from the very beginning of Chapter 38.

The way the term is being used, it means loose (wide, spacious), which can also mean tolerant, or liberal. "Be loose with people" is the message of the phrase. When you are loose with people: when they transgress, you forgive; when they are in want, your fist is not tight. To say someone is "tolerant" does not convey the full meaning, in English. a compound character is 寬容 "spaciousness allowed" which means both tolerant and charitable. Another compound: 寬(spacious)宏(wide)大(great)量(capacity) 寬宏大量 Broad-minded, liberal: generous (compound characters from http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/)

repost from http://thetaobums.com/topic/35385-help-seeking-further-textual-reference/page-2#entry560663 I see now that (the terebess publication of the translation by) Lin Yutang also omitted/changed the first line of this stanza in ch. 38: 故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首 [When Dao is lost, then follows De] After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity. After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice. After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs]. Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin]. And the beginning of chaos. I'm looking at this again and wondering if maybe the grammar of the text (which tended to be very sparse to avoid repeating phrases) was meant to read exactly as it appears: 故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首 "When Dao is lost then follows De (in being lost) When De is lost then follows benevolence (in being lost) When humanity is lost, then follows justice (in being lost) When justice is lost, then follows social customs and propriety (in being lost) Regarding propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos" This does seem to fit a lot of the grammatical style, and makes lot's of sense as well: When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on. Seems every chapter I look closer at, the more I see how much is left out or misunderstood, so this wouldn't be a huge surprise to me anymore. For it to be translated in this (different) way would be well aligned with The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor which does place great value on all of these virtues (edit: though more in the overall meaning rather than in lists). Of course, the central message is still there - hold to Dao and things will either stay or become aligned.

Thanks for taking a closer look at the text Chi Dragon. There were some major errors there, and it brought me to take a closer look as well. I think though, for an English translation with all the equivocal/equivalent meanings of words, the virtues would be best described: 恭、Courtesy 寬、Generosity 信、Sincerity 敏、Quick (in action and understanding) 惠 Kindness 恭則不侮，寬則得眾，信則人任焉，敏則有功，惠則足以使人 "Courtesy results in not being ridiculed or disgraced, generosity results in having many friends (obtaining many people), sincerity results in people being trustworthy towards you (people-dutiful-likewise, or perhaps sincerity-results-people-(obtaining) official positions-thereby), being quick (in action and understanding) results in achieving success, kindness results in people being willing to help and serve you." A general note that these are not all the same as the similar virtues mentioned in chapter 38 of the Dao De Jing. I see now that (the terebess publication of the translation by) Lin Yutang also omitted/changed the first line of this stanza in ch. 38: 故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首 [When Dao is lost, then follows De] After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity. After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice. After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs]. Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin]. And the beginning of chaos. I'm looking at this again and wondering if maybe the grammar of the text (which tended to be very sparse to avoid repeating phrases) was meant to read exactly as it appears: 故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首 "When Dao is lost then follows De (in being lost) When De is lost then follows benevolence (in being lost) When humanity is lost, then follows justice (in being lost) When justice is lost, then follows social customs and propriety (in being lost) Regarding propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos" This does seem to fit a lot of the grammatical style, and makes lot's of sense as well: When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on. Seems every chapter I look closer at, the more I see how much is left out or misunderstood, so this wouldn't be a huge surprise to me anymore. For it to be translated in this (different) way would be well aligned with The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor which does place great value on all of these virtues (edit: though more in the overall meaning rather than in lists). Of course, the central message is still there - hold to Dao and things will either stay or become aligned.

Gotta watch out you don't get sucked into the traffic consciousness or you end up like this guy

Some interesting correlations, not to say that they are or aren't related: Some Daoist classics often refer to "the Ancients" who knew how to live with Dao. We know that modern humans migrated from Africa to Southeast Asia nearly 60,000 years ago. http://originalpeople.org/batek-people-indigenous-group-malaysia/ Batek People: Indigenous Group of Malaysia Batek are a peaceful society. If a member of the group has a conflict with another member of the group they will discuss the matter privately. If that does not end the disagreement, each will publicly share their side of the argument in an attempt to have other members of the camp suggest a resolution. Since each adult member of the camp is equal, there is no internal leader or adjudication system so one or both of the aggrieved parties will leave the camp until cooler heads prevail. [....] External disagreements become a little more tricky, since the Batek do not have leaders or a military, the Batek are generally at the mercy of the Malaysian Government. Malaysia does not recognize Batek sovereignty so during the 20th century the Government gradually encroached on the Batek land, to use it for logging and farming. Since the 1960s the Government has encouraged the Batek to live in Pos Lebir and become non-nomadic farmers. Most Batek are unwilling to settle in Pos Labir because it has not been dedicated to the Batek, they would have to leave there if the Government asked and they would lose their nomadic lifestyle and their religion. One of the Batek summed up the situation by saying: “We Batek are rich if we have a cooking pot, digging stick, bush-knife, lighter, tobacco, salt and fishing pole. Also a man is sad if he doesn’t have a blowpipe. We only want four or five sarongs, we don’t need trousers. If we live here (in Pos Lebir), we need money, if we have money we buy a lot. But if we have no money, no problem, we reject possessions. When we live in the forest, we don’t need them. We can dig tubers. If someone doesn’t have food, others give it as in the old days.” I find it fascinating how the Batek people have managed to survive all of these millennia with no leaders and have managed to maintain the values and practices of non-ownership, non-attachment, and non-egotism/non-selfishness in their culture. On a side note, it also made me think of how our DNA is in societies like this, sharing with one another and ensuring our survival by doing so. This is why we have "group mentality," which is often seen as and taken advantage of as a weakness. Something we can learn from the Batek people is how to live with each other in groups of well meaning people. Governments try to displace people from their inherited land, yet they don't realize how much more value and history will be destroyed in the missteps of misguided "industry."

Great, thanks again!

Thanks Horus! Does he list more (etc.?) or those are the Five Virtues he's talking about?

Perhaps my favourite chapter of the Chaung Tzu. True, there are lists. I should clarify that earlier I mean that there isn't one small list, though there are many lists for various different purposes and circumstances. You might be best to start with Confucius' "The First Ten Books" for these virtues. Doing so would not be un-Taoist whatsoever if we are to take anything from the cultural reality of China.

The reason he translates wei as "ulterior motive" is due to the nature of the character functioning as force. An ulterior motive would mean to manipulate someone, forcing them into whatever. Manipulating someone else for one's own ends is perhaps the best single definition of selfishness I could come up with. Building a retirement fund is working towards one's own ends but doesn't necessitate selfishness, iykwim.

Could anyone who's read Dr. Johnson's books explain a bit more for me about the the Five Virtues, in reference to the following from his taobums.com Q&A interview? Do they have names, such as "benevolence, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, and truthfulness," or do they take the names of the 5 organ spirits? It is important to note that the Five Virtues are the original energetic and spiritual manifestations of the Five Pure Lights. This is why, according to ancient Daoist teaching, the “Virtues” are composed of subtle energetic and spiritual substances, known as “Ling Qi” (“Spiritual Energy”) and “Ling Shen” (“Spiritual Mind”). The Energy Body and Spirit Body are both composed from this subtle energetic and spiritual substance. Whenever an individual becomes extremely emotional (i.e., enraged, fearful, obsessive, depressed, etc.), he or she will naturally drain, burn up, and energetically waste this precious spiritual substance. Therefore, the foundation for all Daoist magic and alchemical work is traditionally built upon the cultivation and replenishing of the subtle spiritual energies of the disciple’s innate Virtues. Merci beaucoup!

20-30 followed by moving practices in the morning sometimes more at night and in reverse order (moving then sitting)

Lin?

Going nowhere fast Flow provides what is needed Where no name will pass

What is meant by fidelity there is actually loyalty. A more direct translation of Chapter 38 is Lin Yutangs: The man of superior character is not (conscious of his) character. Hence he has character. The man of inferior character (is intent on) not losing character. Hence he is devoid of character. The man of superior character never acts, Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive. The man of inferior character acts, And (does so) with an ulterior motive. The man of superior kindness acts, But (does so) without an ulterior motive. The man of superior justice acts, And (does so) with an ulterior motive. (But when) the man of superior li acts and finds no response, He rolls up his sleeves to force it on others. Therefore: After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity. After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice. After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs]. Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin]. And the beginning of chaos. The prophets are the flowering of Tao And the origin of folly. Therefore the noble man dwells in the heavy (base), And not in the thinning (end). He dwells in the fruit, And not in the flowering (expression). Therefore he rejects the one and accepts the other. I can only speculate as to why Lin Yutang chose not to translate "Now li [social customs] is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin]." Perhaps it was too against social customs of the day.... All the virtues are in Dao. Righteousness, wisdom, benevolence, propriety, fidelity, humility, strength, creativity, love, determination, gratitude, balance and harmony, ...... Maybe the source was just repeating another "authoritative" scholarly source which figured "well they chose these to compare everything, so that must be the "Cardinal Virtues." It's not so much like other traditions. You don't need to carry a grocery list .

Was just looking at Chapter 38 while responding to another thread and saw the following: The man of superior character never acts, Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive. The man of inferior character acts, And (does so) with an ulterior motive. 上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為 Highest virtue is without WEI and thereby there is no WEI. Lowest virtue's action has the origin of WEI. Wei is traslated here as "ulterior motive."

a finch starts peeping a fine day for frolicking in the foliage

In The Yellow Emperor's Four Canons, he speaks of wen and wu, which could be translated and love and sternness, and notes that there is a time for both, though generally spring and summer for the former, and fall and winter for the latter when it comes to governance. Timing is of the utmost importance in such matters, both not doing so at the wrong time, and not letting the right time pass un-acted upon.

Note that the paragraph structure is the same in Chapter 51, where it is stated that "The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them..." and then the following sentences have no subject, so it is assumed that they take on the subject of the opening statement, in this case Dao, but in Chapter Two, the Sage. I would suggest that it is not simply emulation of De and Dao, but supporting the course of De and Dao by non-interference; letting De and Dao manifest unhindered by the Sage's self-interests. As we know (from chapter 51), De and Dao support Life and Goodness, nourishment, and progress. So the Sage would align himself thuswards as well. Wu wei can be active, and still be wu wei, so long as it is action in support of, or in obedience to, De, Dao, and "the will of Heaven." Then of course there is the question "how does the Sage know the will of Heaven?" By being "empty." Can't get any more voicemails when the mailbox is full. Remain empty and messages can come in.

This exercise seems like a safe way to enhance circulation in the brain more indirectly via the exercise, ie., it doesn't require concentration of forcing chi anywhere with little experience or knowledge of what might happen. Just simply do the exercise and it will do what it's supposed to do. http://thetaobums.com/topic/34997-superbrain-yogaqigong-balances-brain-hemespheres/

The way I see it, the power lock is like a beginner method to build up the strength to resist orgasm. When this is achieved, you shouldn't need to rely too heavily on muscle strength to circulate and retain energy. You don't want stagnant energy building up like this. Practice, inhale, belly moves out to about 80% full, clench the urogenital diaphragm, push the stomach in while still inhaling. This will lift the urogenital diaphragm up. Hold clench and then exhale, slowly releasing the urogental muscles. Optionally, following the exhale, do 3 to 8 quick flexes of the UGD and hold the last one for a bit before releasing and inhaling again. Do not overdo these exercises and be sure that the area is free of tension so that stagnant energy can disperse as necessary. it will be appreciated that you don't talk about "solo practice" on the forums. Maybe on personal practice discussion if you get one later.

Person A might want to double check why they're doing what they're doing. If they're "practicing" selflessness, well then they're getting lots of practice, because person B doesn't seem to give a *^&% too much. If they're being selfless, and have some despair with B's lack of progress, the best they could do may be to just not respond to B's ego elevation. If B asks why, A could jibe him or her by quoting from DDJ3 "By not elevating the worthy, you bring it about that people will not compete."

Thank you for taking me to task once again Marblehead. I knew it wouldn't be long before I'd find an example in the Dao De Jing, and lo and behold, Chapter Two shows a good example of both of these concepts: .... Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action [處無為之事 makes it his business to maintain wu wei] and practices the teaching that uses no words. The myriad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority; It gives them life yet claims no possession; It benefits them yet exacts no gratitude; It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit. It is because it lays claim to no merit That its merit never deserts it. (trans. D.C. Lau) This translation takes some liberty in adding a subject to the sentence, ie. "It" gives them life and they rise from "it", rather than the more literal "Life is given yet not taken possession of." Adding "It" ascribes all of this to Dao or perhaps wu wei, but the absence of a subject in these lines suggests that it is the Sage (the only subject mentioned) who acts selflessly and wu wei.