Harmonious Emptiness

soap bubbles float by all quiet on the pond shhhh!.. the Tao is speaking

Excellent post. It would be interesting to hear the scientific community realize how chi is operating in the physical structures of the body. I think there is certainly something to chi carrying information which operates on a super-conscious (sub-conscious) level, understood by another's chi which communicates to their bodily structures/systems. It would be something so part of nature though that it couldn't be fully explained. It's like a flower. We understand a few things about how and why flowers grow, but can anyone make a flower? No! They can cause a flower to grow, but they have no idea how to make a flower because it requires the whole balance of the cosmos to make a flower. Nature is a trillion light-years beyond science and technology. However, in looking at the physical signs, what I think they might find is that there is a harmonic basis to the phenomena. They said that the microtubules may be stimulated by anharmonic events, ie., changes of continuous patterns. I think there may be something to this which could explain how chi effects someone via chi-projection in healing. I don't believe in a violent projection of chi force strong enough to knock someone over, but there is evidence of being able to influence someone's body internally. Perhaps science will see some harmonic reason for this, however they will never be able to produce the same effects with machines any more than they will be able to build flowers out of chlorophyll. It is the energy of nature, and the intelligence in that energy, which does the work. Maybe, like zoologists noting travel patterns of animals, they will one day find out the routes and influences of these things, but they will never be able to replace the birds with their graphs and spreadsheets. Period. In any case, in searching for these patters, I think they will find some significant information in the energy signals traveling through the nervous system. thanks for your contributions everyone Hé

As even modern medical science knows, the state of relaxation has enormous benefits on the body and the mind. Meditation practitioners also knows this, and so uncluttering the thoughts and desires is a beginning stage to overcoming the common limitations of mind, body, and spirit/energetic potentials.

Well, I'm not saying that energy potentials are of no value, just that perhaps they are something separate from the transformation. If we look at the quote in the opening post, we see on the consciousness side: open awareness, conscious knowledge, and desirelessness. more to the energy side of things we see: refining out adulterating energy and confused feelings (I would argue this is still largely done through consciousness); true feeling and spiritual essence combine. "True feeling and spiritual essence combine" appears to me (from my experience) to mean that one's feeling awareness is unadulterated and thus their spiritual essence is also pure, spontaneous, and natural. It is not confused by anger, sorrow, joy, desire, etc., the spirit is rooted in the true temperament like settled water and thus clarified, pure, and cognizant of the refined and unrefined making it simple to return to the refined/pure. Not to say that simple knowledge of this is the attainment. The waters will be muddied over and over again, but the description given does appear to suggest that this is the way and process of the transformation. I'm enjoying the alternate views, but they have yet to convince me. The method of alchemy involves gathering a bit of true fire of open awareness within conscious knowledge and refining out the adulterating energy of confused feelings, then gathering the true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge and extinguishing the baseless [unrooted?] burning of the temperament. When the true fire [of open awareness] and spiritual water [of desirelessness] join into one, [desirelessness] water and [open awareness] fire balance each other, true feeling and spiritual essence combine, and real knowledge and conscious knowledge cleave to one another; then sense is itself essence and essence is itself sense. Utterly conscious of reality, consciousness utterly real, the unified energy functions the same as heaven and earth. This is likened to lead and mercury being forged into spiritual granules; when the firing is complete, the medicine is perfected and turns violet-gold, never again to change

Very good point. Right or wrong, from my perspective and seemingly that of many others, this unity is made more present and realized with the transformation of consciousness from the typical reactive and cluttered mind/spirit to the free, open, and settled spirit. You could reasonably say, too, that achieving desirelessness is something that takes place on the physical plane as well. However, the ultimate result is a transformation of the consciouness and awareness being free from these shackles, like oil being cleaned off the wings of a seagull - the transformation gives one back their true reality. The ultimate transformation is on the mind, the experience, of the bird who yearned for the return of its real nature. This is why I added the Nei Ye section, to illustrate the point you are making about the difference between conscious knowledge and real knowledge. This is the challenge of talking about these things in English, difficult enough as they are, I'm sure, in Classical Chinese. Awareness too, takes place on the level of consciousness (if we don't get semantically tangled up). Desirelessness is a transformation of consciousness. I think you can understand of what I really mean by consciousness.

Thanks for the website. I found the following to be the most direct: http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/Chen/Waiqianalysis_0704.pdf looking forward to reading it more in-depth.

As you said, yes, it's not something they will understand in their current paradigm of knowledge, especially without sincere practice and success in chi gung. Wasn't able to find the Russian footage. Would you have any links?

Before I get to some other posts, just wanted to say thanks for this^. What I found most interesting was "The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations" and "They will engage skeptics in a debate on the nature of consciousness, and Bandyopadhyay and his team will couple microtubule vibrations from active neurons to play Indian musical instruments. "Consciousness depends on anharmonic vibrations of microtubules inside neurons, similar to certain kinds of Indian music, but unlike Western music which is harmonic," Hameroff explains." So basically we have these cytoskeletons inside the cytoplasm of each cell which have these "microtubules" (seen in green in the photo below), which pick up messages. So, somehow these vibrations/ideas are processed and weighed, whether consciously or "sub"consciously. I'd prefer to offer the term SUPER-consciously, for the processes of knowing in open awareness. The "theory" they're debating seems to be based on the idea that it is harmonic/vibrational phenomena which stimulate the microtubules and are responsible for all of consciousness. Like every thought is just some random vibration caused by harmonic dissonance. And these are supposed to be today's smart people ! We're just a bunch of robots folks, responding to our circuitry. Otherwise what they might be referring to is the rhythmic pattern being changed, since anharmonic is related to oscilation and Indian rhythmic patterns change sometimes every bar, like "123,1!234, 123, 123, 12, 1!2345678, 12..." (bad example, but you get the idea). Either way, even if it is a vibration or oscillation (any oscillation creates vibrational frequency, so either way), wouldn't that wave be a form of energy in itself, not unlike....... chi!!

This is essentially what I was saying in the opening post, and this would help explain how people can almost miraculous things by cultivating chi, even if they can later be explained by physics - good luck to a physics master doing those same things without chi gung. However, I there certainly are other phenomena especially in healing which show that this energy can also be projected and utilized in such a way to affect another's chi, so I guess that explanation will not suffice on the whole. NotVoid said: When qigong was still a big craze in China a number of years ago before the crack down on qigong groups in China, various modern qigong masters and scientists etc. began to put forth the idea of qi as something that is not just energetic in nature, but something which also contains or transmits information or intelligence, or intelligent structure. Thus based on this view, qi is not just some basic form of energy, but something more than this. This also falls into my experience, and is even further inexplicable by science (or myself for that matter, lol), especially when the communication happens over distance. I guess the skeptics will always have their little parties of ridicule. It's unfortunate that they are so quick to be skeptical yet never of their close-minded skepticism. Found the following video, but I'm sure most people will say it's a cheap video-magic trick. Maybe it is, but I know there are enough instances of this type of thing that I'm not dismissing it yet. I know that Ya Mu and Michael Winn both did some sort of successful chi measurement tests. Does anyone know where to find those?

Thanks for all of the interesting responses everyone! I'll be busy for a couple of days.. hopefully can respond soon after that. By all means, continue the discussion however.

Exactly. There is an obvious symmetry of thoughts between Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. When I read the Chuang Tzu, many parts appear as extrapolations of key verses from the Tao Te Ching. That, to me, is all the proof necessary.

I'm a big jerk, aren't I..

Lao Tzu also counseled against holding high ranks. See chapter 13 for one example: Favor and disgrace are things that startle; High rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble. What is meant by saying favor and disgrace are things that startle? Favor when it is bestowed on a subject serves to startle as much as when it is withdrawn. This is what is meant by saying that favor and disgrace are things that startle. What is meant by saying that high rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble? The reason I have great trouble is that I have a body. When I no longer have a body, what trouble have I? .... Being in a position to counsel the powerful, it would only be the sagely thing to do to give them counsel and try to pad it with the wisdom that they really needed: the Dao. As for being a conformist: The multitude are joyous As if partaking of the offering Or going up to a terrace in spring. I alone am inactive and reveal no signs, And wax without having reached the limit. Like a baby that has not yet learned to smile, Listless as though with no home to go back to. The multitude all have more than enough. I alone seem to be in want. My mind is that of a fool - how blank! Vulgar people are clear. I alone am drowsy. Vulgar people are alert. I alone am muddled. Calm like the sea; Like a high wind that never ceases. The multitude all have a purpose. I alone am foolish and uncouth. I alone am different from others And value being fed by the mother.

note that the intro states this is a compilation from the Sima Quan and Chuang Tzu..

Not just Watson, but the original text uses Lao Dan and Lao Tzu interchangeably, as seen in the second and third last paragraphs of Chapter 14 here: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/revolution-of-heaven You'll notice "Confucius said to Lao Dan" is followed by "Lao Tzu replied" As to the age difference, if they were 50 years apart in age, Confucius could have been in his early 40s while Lao Tzu in his early 90s. Given his wisdom and harmonious and loving nature, Lao Tzu was certainly a model of someone who lives unusually long. Also, being close to the aristocracy he would have had excellent medical treatment if ever it was needed. Further, it may be that they didn't meet, but the question for now is whether Chuang Tzu knew of Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching. As to whether Chuang Tzu knew of the Dao De Jing, I don't know of any reference to it right now (same for Confucius referencing Lao Tzu/Lao Dan. There is another interesting excerpt from ch. 14 though, where a saying which is referred to in a number of the early chapters of the Dao De Jing (especially chapter 14) is attributed to the lord of Yen, though this only goes to show, imo, what is already known, ie, that this wisdom has been passed down and cultivated throughout ancient Chinese history, and the Classics are essentially landmarks of this journey. When the Heavenly mechanism is not put into action and yet the five vital organs are all complete this may be called the music of Heaven. Wordless, it delights the mind. Therefore the lord of Yen sang its praises thus: `Listen - you do not hear its sound; look - you do not see its form. It fills all Heaven and earth, enwraps all the six directions.'

He's referred to as both Lao Dan and Lao Tzu, example 孔子謂老聃曰 "Confucius, speaking to Lao Dan said...." 老子曰 "Lao Tzu replied...." Confucius describes Lao Dan in Chapter 14 as such: When Confucius returned from his visit with Lao Tan, he did not speak for three days. His disciples said, "Master, you've seen Lao Tan - what estimation would you make of him?" Confucius said, "At last I may say that I have seen a dragon - a dragon that coils to show his body at its best, that sprawls out to display his patterns at their best, riding on the breath of the clouds, feeding on the yin and yang. My mouth fell open and I couldn't close it; my tongue flew up and I couldn't even stammer. How could I possibly make any estimation of Lao Tan!" Tzu-kung said, "Then is it true that the Perfect Man can command corpse-like stillness and dragon vision, the voice of thunder and the silence of deep pools; that he breaks forth into movement like Heaven and earth? If only I too could get to see him!" In the end he went with an introduction from Confucius and called on Lao Tan. Lao Tan was about to sit down in the hall and stretch out his legs. In a small voice he said, "I've lived to see a great many years come and go. What advice is it you have for me?" There's interesting references to the straw dogs in the chapter as well. Also a beautiful part of the Yellow Emperor describing Music.

note that there are conversations between Lao Tzu and Confucius in chapters 13 and 14 of Chuang Tzu

thanks for the correction thelerner

more about other people more about myself A much larger map of the Infinite Terrain and some mutual support to help us discover more of it..

I don't believe Bigfoot are homosapiens, though they may have more intelligence than your average KKK member.

The tree is not the forest. The brick is not the house. The thought that can be isolated is not the mind.

http://jasonskywalker5.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/black-author-wins-matrix/ Stewart, a New Yorker who has resided in Salt Lake City for the past five years, will recover damages from the films, The Matrix I, II and III, as well as The Terminator and its sequels. She will soon receive one of the biggest payoffs in the history of Hollywood , as the gross receipts of both films and their sequels total over 2.5 billion dollars. Stewart filed her case in 1999, after viewing the Matrix, which she felt had been based on her manuscript, ‘The Third Eye,’ copyrighted in 1981. In the mid-eighties Stewart had submitted her manuscript to an ad placed by the Wachowski Brothers, requesting new sci-fi works.. According to court documentation, a FBI investigation discovered that more than thirty minutes had been edited from the original film, in an attempt to avoid penalties for copyright infringement. The investigation also stated that ‘credible witnesses employed at Warner Brothers came forward, claiming that the executives and lawyers had full knowledge that the work in question did not belong to the Wachowski Brothers.’ These witnesses claimed to have seen Stewart’s original work and that it had been ‘often used during preparation of the motion pictures.’ The defendants tried, on several occasions, to have Stewart’s case dismissed, without success.

the hotspot website link doesn't work by the way. Definitely need a website.

Wow, just saw this now. Crazy. I don't know how I can help you Sifu Dunn, but I think it's all pretty transparent. That guy obviously has no idea how to write something like that, and he looks like he's trying to pretend he didn't just poop himself. I think the reason they found other writers is because that way they can claim all the merchandizing etc. for the character. If they accepted your story they would have to say that you created the character and they wouldn't be able to collect the royalties on the "lovable kung-fu panda character" that sells toys and t-shirts and video games, not to mention the other characters.

Great topic to revisit. Another great version is that by Wu Jing-Nuan. I saw the recommendation in a Micheal Winn news letter. It basically translates the King Wen and Duke of Zhou commentaries and then gives some guidance on how they relate to the subject of the hexagram. Great for looking deeper at the roots of the later commentaries.