Harmonious Emptiness

I think we're going off onto a different topic now, one which I covered already in my personal practice discussion on Chapter Five. As to the One, Two, and Three being like straw dogs.. If you want to see it that way, that's fine with me. I don't see it that way however. I don't have much time to debate this more than I have already. I just don't see the value of doing so.

Exactly. So this is human. Human is the effigy of what the True Nature (proper) is. Sages see the effigy for the effigy that it is. They do not discrimate -- this person is an emperor, this person is a bridge builder, this person is a rice farmer, this person is self-sufficient living on their fields. Their position in society is not the Original Nature. "Jen" meant more about one's self-sacrifice to the Confucian/court social orders of hierarchy, rather than what English speakers associate with "humanitarianism." To say "the Sage does not (bu only negates verbs) Jen, all humans are effigies," well, I don't want to tell you what it means, but I think it must be getting clearer.

Are you just being lyrical, or are you saying that there is no sitting or (zhuan zhang) standing during (the) Neidan meditation (that you are being taught)? I would have to assume that the practice would be more towards not accumulating karma or something of that effect, if none of this was part of it. Harmonic frequencies with the planets maybe?

So then we can agree that there is correct and incorrect Dazuo? I meant white Russians as in, not Chinese Russians. I don't know much about the Russian immigrant population, but I don't think I missed too many of the subcultures.. Antares, Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the same thing, that maybe they were referring to martial/hard chi gongs. However, all chi gong practices were said, earlier, to reduce yuan jing. How could they do this more than walking down the street? And if walking down the street uses up yuan jing, then doing qi gong would make you do it in a way that uses up less of it.

Sitting "on end" for ages, rather than getting clear and standing up, sure, makes sense that it would be excess yin, and the students of Single Yang would know how unguided some of the prevalent sitting practices were when people heard "just sit," without a master there to explain more. Remember that people were rarely ever able to have a broad study of the texts like people do today, when distribution and literacy levels are at least 3 times higher. The chances of someone coming across the proper teachings in writing was very rare, especially before these masters had written or published their literary works. So, the assumption was that people were "just" sitting when not instructed by the proper teachings, which most people were not even able to understand in writing because they weren't able to have a broad reading of the development of those ideas, nor had these teachers written, trying to explain the teachings a bit more than the last written text. Without the knowledge of HOW to sit, the Sitters wouldn't learn much. This isn't to say that one HAS to sit, but let's not take quotations out of context and fear monger about sitting and chi gung. Besides, whoever's writing, how do you know that your teacher's giving you the "secret" which may or may not involve stabilized sitting? If the Chinese Wuxian Daoists (who I believe you inadvertently referred to as racists earlier) wouldn't share their knowledge with you, what makes you so certain you're receiving it?

Well both. He's a human being.

Just want to say -- I don't know what kinds of chi gung people are practicing that will deplete their yuan shen more than them simply living their lives as normal. Chi gung makes people more relaxed, peaceful, healthy, sometimes energetic. How would this deplete their original spirit? And meditation as well. There's an idea here that nobody should practice sitting meditation because it will cause spermatorea and death. Sorry, but anyone who says that seems to have not even the slightest knowledge about anything to do with Taoist and Buddhist practices, both of which generally include lots and lots and lots (and sometimes more) of sitting meditation. Buddhists are not secretly walking around with dirty underpants and dying off in all the thousands of meditation halls around the world, and neither are Taoists. To make such a claim is far more discrediting than convincing. I don't know much at all about secret neidan practices, but there are some serious flaws in the logic of these assertions which would be much better clarified.

Well, it's not that he's true because he's vulnerable, it's just the way people are.

From my understanding, effective chi gong, "chi work," is also neigong, "internal work," as it transforms sexual energy into chi and spirit, provided sufficient mind-state, relaxation, meditation, wisdom, virtue, guidance, etc. Neigong and chigong do not necessarily aspire for Immortality, and so are not necessarily Neidan, "inner alchemy." Waigong, "external work," is using herbs and substances as part of neigong for vitality, and helping to tranform jing to chi and shen by these substances, for example, herbs that help balance jing to prevent leakage. This is not necessarily focused on Immortality. Waidan, "external alchemy," is using substances to assist the process of Neidan.

Yes, sorry to confuse again -- I don't mean to refer, necessarily, to sort of Buddhist sense of "real nature." Basically, the emperor, the lord, even the priest, and of course the "peasants," they all have human weaknesses, struggles, are subject to the whims of nature, experience sadness, happiness, anger, desire. None have transcended these things, so in a way we are all like children, still subject to the schedules and whims of mother Earth and father Sky, and still crying when we can't get our proverbial bottle. Even if one has conquered the self, they are still at the same level. They are still in the stroller, they're just more comfortable and content, and don't cry all the time.

But a persona is a persona. There is a more real nature underneath the accumulated dust of persona, hierarchy, etc.

Sure, but you can also see through the "cop-ness" that's giving you a ticket and look at the regular individual who has a tough job of giving tickets to people who might not be able to afford it. This is not always easy, and so the pretense of him being an authority is really just a shell that he can take off when he, say, goes to dinner at his mom's house. It's the same with emperors and such. Sure, there are roles and functions in the material world which might even have effects in the immaterial/spiritual world, but each person has the same basic principle underneath. The sage knows this. It's like meeting a famous person. Most people will be like "oh, mister whatever, what an honour to meet you" while other people will just see the person as just another person, who happens to be surrounded by an exterior of fame, glamour etc.., but you can also see them as the person that they are underneath, which is not above anyone, etc.., it's just another personality/person just like any of your other friends.

Seems you were referring to my post, but what I said: "The way I see the "straw dogs" description is meaning that all people, including emperors and great lords and so forth, are all perishable beings. They may seem all nice and well put together, putting all the care into their appearance that is put into the sacrificial effigies, but they are really just shells, soon to be discarded," It's the appearance of superiority, due to being "above" the commoners that I'm talking about. The superficiality of their superiority is meaningless, and this superiority is largely part the "shell" of appearance. The song I posted there (I know, I rarely ever check people's song references either lol) would have made that clearer.

The discussion brings an interesting reflection on depression and yin-yang energies -- light, airy, yang -- wet, heavy, yin -. Need some more light airiness to life, than to need wet yin-ness -- perhaps the root to addiction. MJ is known to dry the body which reduces emotional "stickiness" - but there certainly is something to be said about the resulting "muddiness."

The way I see the "straw dogs" description is meaning that all people, including emperors and great lords and so forth, are all perishable beings. They may seem all nice and well put together, putting all the care into their appearance that is put into the sacrificial effigies, but they are really just shells, soon to be discarded, and to hold some higher than others or lower than others is only looking at the momentary, which is like a grain of sand on the beach of time. As I mentioned in other threads, the "humanity," referred to in chapter 5, appears to be referring to the Confucian/court idea of "ren/jen" which structures how much respect or love is given to a person based on a particular hierarchy of association. Lao Tzu advocated "ci/love/humanity" as part of his 3 treasures. "Ci" can also be translated as humanity, but it doesn't have the limitations associated with "ren/jen/humanity." So, I don't think the 1, 2, and 3 would fit into the same observation. They are more like a beach of time, while a life time is the grain of sand. The following blues tune explains the straw dogs sentiment very well:

Flowing with Dao is like flowing with a river. It's easy, but you still need to keep yourself afloat. You can move left and right, and you can be more with flow and less with the flow. When you are connected to your own internal flow, you will better be able to sense the flow of the river, and flow with it, without losing your own flow which allows you feel it. Like the trigram for water, one solid line between two broken lines - flexible without, while one within. When you realize that you will not be able to maintain oneness, you need to center yourself, since without the center, you will be like a person without a raft. This reminds me of when I was canoeing in some rapids, and I realized that if I wanted to be in harmony with a wave, and not tip over, I needed to respect it, love it even, trust it, accept with gratitude what it pushes onto me and respond in kind with playful, loving, and confident force.

Makes sense as to why he took such "all out" swings. It puts on a good show, but he managed to connect a lot of them.. there's a really bad lesson in there somewhere.... As to his guilt -- I don't think it would have mattered if he was innocent or guilty -- they would have jumped at any chance to punish him, so he might be guilty, but the verdict is far from proof in this case

Maybe the issue is what the guy on the radio meant by love. It seems he was just trying to be quotable on the radio, but seemed to be talking about loving something as being passionate about it, rather than meaning compassion. So apathy is a total absence of passion about something, while hatred abandons compassion for something. Basically, maybe he didn't mean love as in compassion, but love as in passion for something. But as to the crux of the question, there's some complicated possibilities, like hating someone because you want them to change so badly for the good of all, and this resulting from compassionate principles of upholding the greater good. To just not care if they change or not might indicate that there is no concern for the welfare of the greater good, nor for that person's waste of potential. Also, though hatred is certainly not love, it might actually stem from love for someone else, like hating an aggressor because of love for the victim. Apathy doesn't care what happens to either side. So, yes, hatred towards a person is worse than apathy towards them, but to be someone who hates versus someone who is apathetic, at least the hater usually has love for one side, while the apathetic doesn't care about either. -- thought I was going to disagree, but on thinking about it....

I know that teachers can open "just the right" doors for us at "just the right" time, being like taking a train versus walking on foot. However, I ask because there are so many things written down that, for all we know over the internet, you maybe just didn't read about the methods you've learned from your teacher anywhere, or haven't studied broadly enough in both ancient and modern sources to know whether they've been written down somewhere or not. If you haven't studied these texts broadly, it's hard to say that none of them provide full methods, when they consistently have language that says "this is the method."

And then time runs out Pure spirits ahead of their time Or were we just late?

Opendao, can I ask you: 1) How long have you been studying at your school? 2) You said that real schools do not teach foreigners, but your school is in Russia, no? It doesn't teach white Russians? 3) Have you studied Taoist texts to any large extent? 4) Have you familiarized yourself with many various methods of jing, chi, and shen cultivation, and various Taoist breathing methods including reverse breathing and "sealing the locks," or did your experience in Taoist meditation methods begin with joining the school you are a part of? I'm just trying to get a sense of your familiarity with what has actually been written about neidan and neidan methods.

How's it doin' Michael?

Speaking of Xing and Ming, I'd like to submit my translation of Dao De Jing, Chapter 10, which I believe is a manual on cultivating Ming. Mind you, I am rather convinced that Ming is all but synonymous with the 7 po spirits, while Xing is all but synonymous with the 3 hun spirits. The following are my own observations as a result of my independent studies: Some things to note about Chapter 10 and its relation to the po spirits: - It starts off referring to the po spirit - The po spirit is connected to the lungs which are responsible for intuition. This chapter is largely about intuition - "Heaven's gate opens and closes" is said by Heshang Gong to refer to the nostrils with breathing. One can see how this also refers to the lungs, opening and closing, expanding and contracting. This line may also refer to breathing life into the lungs and the po spirits which are our 7 earthly spirits, contrasted to our 3 heavenly hun spirits - When one fills the lungs with oxygen, there is downward pressure of the cooled blood from the heart to the spleen which replenishes the kidneys, which fires the triple burner. Blood is sent (upwards) to the lungs from the liver. - The lungs/po spirit have downward (earth spirit) movement. The liver/hun has upward (heavenly spirit) movement. - The lungs cool the blood, and can relax the heart therapeutically. If "the heart is the emperor of the organs," the lungs are the sages wise counsel to him. - When life is cherished in this way, the hun spirits are nourished as the liver is healed. Thus, if po is Ming, and hun is Xing, this is to cultivate Ming by which Xing is naturally fulfilled as a matter of course, a la, wu wei approach of non-action applied to Xing. [- Embryonic breathing is when the breathing has basically stopped and one returns to processing life in the stomach] Consider the above with the following saying from Ma Yu (Ma Danyang) : "If people can master the path of purity and serenity, that is most excellent. Therefore scripture says, "If people can always be pure and serene, heaven and earth will resort to them." This "heaven and earth" does not mean the external sky and ground. It refers to the heaven and earth in the body. Above the solar plexus is called heaven, below the solar plexus is called earth. If the energy of heaven descends and the vessel of earth opens, so that there is harmony above and below, then vitality and energy spontaneously stabilize." Now, my translation and commentary: Dao De Jing, Chapter 10 Supporting your fortress of po (魄) embrace the One Can you do this without letting it flee like a bird from a beast? Monopolize your chi, sending softness (Monopolize, take sole posession, also has an image of spinning thread in the character) Can you be like a newborn child? (innocence, softness, think of how a newborn child loves and laughs so easily) Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections Can you be without this disease? Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation (Heshang Gong says that “the nation,” in the Dao De Jing, is a metaphorical signifier of the body. So this would say to pay attention to and send chi to the small things that one notices, weaknesses in their health. This might also apply to intuitive attentiveness) Can you do this without academic knowledge? Heaven’s gate opens and closes (Heshang Gong says this refers to the nose while breathing [meant to add: the relation to the lungs opening and closing, expanding and contracting, can also be seen here. The Heaven trigram (I Ching) and lungs are both metal element. Likely a major influence of, or shared influences from, embryonic breathing practices]) Can your actions be soft? (perhaps referring to the breath being quiet and relaxed) Clearly understanding how all sides have come together Can you do this without academic knowledge? (Intuition, a function of harmonious po spirit, is able to spontaneously “put two and two together,” at a speed much faster than logic and academic knowledge, to understand what is happening) Create this, nurture this, (embracing the One, nurturing the po spirit with chi “like spinning thread”) Create without being possessive Doing without the assumption of a particular outcome Leading yet not ruling (Wu wei, “soft” approach to chi) This is Mysterious De [edit in bold]

All-round discomfort Ancient Child is reminded He has a body