Harmonious Emptiness

yeah, never buy soy that doesn't say "organic, non-GMO" on the label, miso included. It's important to vary the seeds and nuts too I'd say, though they all have very similar properties.

Some good fixes: fava beans (2x the protein of all other beans) pumpkin seeds (2x the protein of all other seeds and nuts) nutritional/brewers yeast kept in a shaker - lots of B12 and other B vitamins in it. some use for "cheesy" taste, which doesn't really make sense, but gives an idea of some foods to put it on. It's also good mixed with soymilk and cinnamon for a protein/vitamin shake. soy milk - one cup has the same protein as a portion of meat! peanuts: they're cheap and have lots of vitamins and minerals. nothing to be afraid of.. just wash your hands after to avoid oil transfer to someone with allergies. miso paste -- mix with starchy water and add to sauces instead of bullion for "tang"iness. the flavours in the sauce should disguise the flavour and just leave the effect. It's also very very healthy. tofu: fry it until golden before adding other vegetables to get a meat texture. Put curry powder or brown sugar in the oil before adding the tofu and it will coat with flavour.

Perhaps I'll have to call myself something else, other than a Taoist (not that I often do), but I see De as the formless Light that illuminates all things and Dao is the expression, the fractal light distinguishing colour and form - dimension, differences, left and right, high and low, it doesn't do. Like smoke, it flows with the DE-wind. I invite you all to read my translation and discussion (with Dawei) of Heshang Gong's commentary of the the De Dao Jing here (sorry - need to be signed in). Nobody has to agree with me - just bringing the idea to the attention of the people who might read this. Beauty and Prosperity D

Well, I can't speak for your experiences, but, from what I've seen on this forum at least, it's usually a matter of whether somebody practices which determines their degree of openness to these ideas, rather than being Chinese or not, as evidenced by Chi Dragon here, who states quite often that the meanings of the DDJ should not be meddled with for mystical interpretations, and at the same time says his view is correct due simply to the fact that he is Chinese. So, from what I've seen there, being Chinese or non-Chinese is not really a determining factor on the matter of mystical understandings.

This does make sense. From my perspective, the beginning is when Life, including Heaven and Earth, starts, even if there was something static before that. From the perspective of Emptiness, there may be other things, but the party doesn't really start until De is on the scene all the same.

Not sure if I was misunderstood or not -- I meant go ahead and talk about that here. Perhaps the new thread will be better from a new start.

Go ahead Dawei, the thread was to discuss origins (and ultimately to look at the nature and place of De).

De is the Light. Dao is the Way.

CD, you're taking this towards another two pages of off-topic posts which will obscure the on topic discussion in the thread (as per your recent behaviour). Please start a new topic where you can discuss what you want to talk about, including anything related to this thread, of which, 7 posts later, you have still not read the first page. Feel free to PM me if there is something you need to know about it and I will explain it there. Otherwise, feel free to contend this request in the office. Please do not post your questions on this thread. Thanks. - the OP

Hmm, to say that Dao needs De to "Dao" upon something does not necessarily mean that Dao wasn't there, as latent potential, before. You do have a point. For people, as "beings," it might seem that De comes first, since Chi, and perhaps "awareness," first started from De, and there is plenty of opportunity to later see the workings of Dao that followed. Still, that would be a bit like saying that a baby which hasn't been conceived yet, is already in existence. What do you think?

been there..

"The Dao that can be spoken" refers to political philosophy, and philosophies of social propriety, which are simply a matter of strategies and compartmentalizations of "appropriate" and "inappropriate," which exist as a matter of logic and words. This is not the Eternal Dao. This does not mean that the Dao can not be spoken of (evidenced by the existence of the Dao De Jing), it simply means that those things are not Eternal. I don't want to go off topic, but De and Dao are both spoken of in all 81 Chapters of the Dao De Jing, either overtly or implicitly, and many many many other places, including occasionally here too.

But we're not talking about merits given to people, we're talking about Xuan De, Mysterious Virtue. The Dao is the Destiny of how things happen. De is the force from which these things CAN be born, allowing them to arise as per the Destiny of Dao.

Technically? No, De and Dao can both be spoken of - just not ultimately defined in words Why? What do you mean by that?

Well, you had said: "Idk how many taoist practitioners there are here, actually. I personally think discussing taoist texts is not 'true taoism' at all. Its just 'true discussion'. I dont think true taoism is very head based." Well, to practice "True Daoism" does it not make sense to make sure your learning "true Daoist teachings" and study the foundations from which they should be coming from? Anyways, I'm not anyone to point the finger and say who is and who isn't practicing. I'm pretty much practicing all day long, especially before and after work (kitchen brigade), based on a number of things which are merely "philosophical" like "not too much" "naturalness" "oneness of breath and body," environmental awareness, balance, and harmony, mud stepping over wet floors and warding off hot pans, while maintaining the One .. what do I need to be a true "practitioner" of Daoism? I don't have a regular teacher, yet my actions are weighed against internalized teachings of so many ancient Sage authors. The combination of all these teachers becomes one teacher, yourself, when you learn for yourself that what they say is true.

Or at the very least, teachings which can help to unveil it. The fundamental principle of always letting the Native Chinese have the last word???!!!

So all the texts written by sages on the texts of other sages, explaining what is meant and how it can be applied to meditation and life, those authors and teachers were not "true" Taoists? Just because someone discusses texts doesn't mean they don't practice what they learn from it. Obviously there's a reason when it comes to these texts, that goes beyond scholarly intellectualism.

I find the textual studies often lead me to broader understanding when someone says "no your wrong" and so I go and see "okay, so why is it like this" and then find out "Ah! it's like that because of this! Interesting!..." lol

White sage is toxic to drink.. not good. Much better options, sorry to trump or whatever. Siberian ginseng is good, but doesn't have much flavour, so mix it with lemongrass or something

Oh well, I won't toss back every ball that is thrown at me, but now that the reasons for why I'm putting these ideas forth are established, it will be easier. Essentially, what I've been getting at, is that the Universal power that people experience as "The Holy Spirit" and "God" is more akin to the "Mysterious Virtue" than Dao, in my opinion. Am I placating to a hegemonic monotheism? No, because I actually agree with what I'm saying, but it does help, I find, to be able to respond when someone says "you worship nothingness and so can't know what I know," that "this exists here as well, and it's call ABCDEFG" so that we can find reasons to get together and learn from each other ("in any 3 people, one of them is my teacher") from our common language/understanding rather than launching catapults at each other from afar .

I'd say this means Dao is also (yet not limited to) an action (including the non-interference as action), not just a moral and political philosophy, and which must be known beyond intellectual understanding. This doesn't mean that the hand pointing at the moon does not help at all. Anyway, personally, I'm quite surprised at how little interest there is here in the beautiful and helpful writings of the Daoist sages. There seems to be maybe 6 people that take part in these discussions, and are otherwise often trash-talked as if the lessons of ancient sages are just pretty words that no-one can understand, which is absurd. Yes, go out and live the lessons afterwards when they help you see yourself more clearly, but there is 1000's of years of wisdom in these words too, not to mention proper instruction for meditation in daily life, and in quietude. It is an internet phenomenon, however, and so the quick entertainment of various things will serve their purposes too. I think what we also get, sometimes, is the equivalent of people who "tag" a wall with spray-paint, dirtying up a nice wall or art-piece by chicken-scratching their name on it, trying to build their presence in the world at the expense of someone else's work. Anyways, it's interesting to see the "shadow" personalities here sometimes as it makes sense of some behaviours in the outside world too. I'm not sure which "fundamental principles" exactly are being referred to in the OP though...

From my perspective, I don't anthropormorphize "God," though I think that we have some of "God" in us, so De is God only because God is De -- What people called God was a way of naming De, and Dao, and the One, though the metaphor of a human-being ruler became the hand that was worshiped in place (of the moon), and due to the acceptance of that metaphor, the understanding of Dao was not pursued in the same way that it was amongst Daoists. The way that Dao acts, according to the will of De, was observed, but understood differently. When too many people saw that the way society functioned was wrong, the people that wanted society to function that way took over the meaning of what was "right" and "wrong" by claiming or covertly stealing the authority of the religion, and using that authority to continue their political agendas. As for the quote, "I recognize the beneficence of the power which we all worship as supreme — Order, Fate, the Great Spirit, Nature, DE" see Chapter 51 of the Dao De Jing (tr. Hendricks with my [translation edits]) 1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them; 2. Substance gives them form and [power/shi] complete them. 3. Therefore the ten thousand things venerate the Way and honor Virtue. [Therefore the ten thousand things cannot not venerate Dao and cherish De] 4. As for their veneration of the Way and their honoring of Virtue— 5. No one rewards them for it; it's constantly so on its own. [The ten thousand things are not able to resist the eternal destiny of the self-supportive/supporting/supported nature, Zi Ran] 6. The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them, matures them, completes them, rests them, rears them, supports them, and protects them. 7. It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them; 8. It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent; 9. It matures them but doesn't rule them. 10. This we call Profound Virtue. [是謂玄德 This is called Xuan De, Mysterious Virtue] I agree that The One, De, and Dao are all part of One thing, but as forms in the formless, we see differences while looking towards the source, until the differences become fewer and fewer, and then we have 3, and then 1. But like parents, who are also 1 (couple), 2 (him and her), and 3 (him, her, parents), "the husband may wear the pants, but his wife tells him which pants to wear." De is the force behind Dao. Voila!

In this conversation, your the only one that's anthropomorphosizing

I happened upon the following quote by Hellen Keller, which also helps to sum up one aspect of all of this. Remember that De was described as "beneficent," and imagine she says "De" instead of "God."