Harmonious Emptiness

I'm still on page 4 of reading the thread, but will add: would the world be a better place if it was written: 蛋dan 天tian Egg (of) Heaven b'kaaaaw

Just some thoughts that crossed my mind while reading the opening post: 1) you have fluctuating moods -- this means you are still human. Not a major problem, but a good reason to meditate anyways. 2) you had a car accident a week ago that cost you $5000. You still seem to be functioning pretty well and were able to rise above that event. Congratulations. There are bound to be some things that got shook up inside of you, forcefully, which are bound to bounce around for a bit after that and surface as emotion-sensation. I'd suggest sage smudging to help clear the traumatic energies. Dried cedar leaves work very well too (if not better) but they can spark and "spit hot fiyya" so you have to watch out about doing that indoors. (yeah, it's Friday....). 3) The feeling in the vets office was *maybe also due to residual emotions stagnating in the office from the experiences of people and animals that had been in the office, amplified by your reasons for feeling that way. 4) If you feel weird and you don't know why, become aware of your environment. What do you see, hear, feel, what's coming, what's going, etc.. This can help to become more aware of what's happening inside of you from an objective view, and also become aware of things that might cause feelings before they have a chance to make you think they came from you. Energies can be easily manipulated when we're not aware of what's happening both around us, and within us. Good luck. And don't forget to have some fun..

This is sort of like saying that the personality, patterns, and behaviours of a person need to exist before the person can exist. I think the ideas of pre-natal nature would suggest otherwise. So we agree there then I can agree with that, even though I find De is closer to being like The One, as they are both more like the source and impulse of creation, while Dao relates more to the way of creation DDJ25 (my translation) 有 物 混 成 ， Something exists, random and chaotic, yet perfect and complete 先 天 地 生 。 Existing before Heaven and Earth were born 寂 兮 寥 兮 ， Still and serene, desolate and empty 獨 立 而 不 改 ， Self established, yet unchanged 周 行 而 不 殆 ， Traveling in circles, but not hazardous though I would like to avoid making incomplete and inaccurate comparisons, I see it similar to computer code, (which goes back to Daoism in a way, with I Ching hexagrams being like binary code of the Dao). Dao is the program, but De is the computer, or the programmer, or the need that the program serves.

How about brewing tips? Parts of your ritual? What do you do for best flavour? I would add: - Considering the time to pour it, in the brewing time, and pouring slower or faster based on that (when you have a small pot and spout this is more evident). - brewing time based on imagined expansion of leaves to fill the pot (with wulong) - dousing the pot with hot water 2 or 3 times to heat the water and measure the time - if doing something else while drinking tea, stop and maintain presence for 20 seconds while its brewing

I might agree that they do essentially arise simultaneously, with their different functions and so forth, and are inseparable, however, I feel that there is something to what Guanzi said, in your earlier quote, that "De is the house of Dao." Dao is the expression of Virtue, and so has to come from Virtue, and/or rely on Virtue, which in this case would pretty much be the same. "Virtue is the giving-ness (澤 beneficence) of Dao" (see post #4). Virtue is what creates Life, Dao is more about Destiny and how things are ordered, including when and how things obtain Life. So Virtue is the "creator" (which, maybe, comes with, if not from, the One), and Dao is the way in which things are created, rising and falling and rising again, as in water vapour, calendrical cycles, breathing, etc.. For things to exist, however, De is first required. For things to operate according to Dao, things need to first exist. Dao can exist before things exist, but it is not "Dao-ing," it is not in operation, it is latent. So perhaps Dao and De exist simultaneously in the beginnings of linear time, but for Dao to become active, first required De to activate. For Dao and De to be activated, first relied on the The One to exist, out of non-existence, perhaps. So, maybe, De is not The One, but De would have had to rise from The Oneness first, before Dao arose and then operated on that which De created from Oneness.

I play a bit of wooden flute, myself, and a bit of blues harmonica. I found that learning flute helps a lot with breath focus due to the need for smooth, even, and long breaths, which help focus. Listen to Qin/Guzhen music for the rhythm, then improvise on a major scale using only 1do 2ra 3me 5so 6la 8/1do. When you change keys, by starting on a different note in the scale, and play this scale, you will get different major and minor pentatonic scales. for example, if you start the scale on the 6/La and play around the scale, the notes will harmonize differently than if you start from 3me, or the 1do. Do this in a Guzheng groove and there's lots to play around with. Works great on string instruments too!

See the following -- In another thread I tried to start back in June, "Tao is the Personality of Life (God)." A better way to to say this is that Dao is the Character of De! 湛兮 zhàn xí Profound depth! The First is the first right? DEity perhaps!! :lol: There is an airising of The Formless Oneness from non-existence. Non-existence precedes The Oneness. Then from the Oneness comes chi, and the myriad things. This is consistent with both Heshang Gong and The Chuang Tzu. The thing about De being DEity, and people praying to DEity, is that DEity nourishes: 1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them; 2. Substance gives them form and their unique capacities complete them. 3. Therefore the ten thousand things venerate the Way and honor Virtue" - DDJ51 Thanks! There is some very consistent language associating De with The Oneness(from which all things are born). tangent [The "Heaven and Earth" chapter in The Chuang Tzu is from the "Outer Chapters" which many believe to be from different authors. Perhaps, rather than being from different authors, these were the histories, legends, and stories that had been part of the cultural transmission that Chuang Tzu was born into, or raised in, perhaps elders shared these stories as teachers, and Chuang Tzu then became the one to transmit the stories and legends, so he did so wonderfully. The ontology(creation logic) of his writing shows a deep immersion in that of Daoist ontology.] I'm looking at the original "Heaven and Earth" text and am seeing some other possible meanings in place of "This is called De.": (my translation) 泰初有無，無有無名，一之所起，有一而未形。物得以生，謂之德；未形者有分，且然無間，謂之命 In the Great Beginning, there was non-existence. Non-existence and Non-differentiation (no names). There was then the arising of Oneness. The Oneness existed, yet it was formless. Things then obtained birth. This is the expression of (Supreme) Virtue, De[ity]. The formless was then divided, and the space was no longer empty. (or, the suchness was without empty space, ie., it was differentiated but not separated). How? Because of Destiny. This is the expression of Destiny, Ming. I think Destiny here is synonymous with Dao: The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them; Substance gives them form and their unique capacities complete them. Therefore the ten thousand things venerate the Way and honor Virtue DDJ51 De nourishes them because they came from De, but it was Destiny, and Dao, which caused them to be born. We can understand why people pray to DEity, then - because De nourishes them, proliferates chi, and is 蓄養 protective and supportive. You also quoted Heshang Gong on Chapter 51: "The Way gives life to all the myriad creatures. Virtue signifies the One. It is the One which gives birth to and dispenses the breath of life [chi], and thus is nourishing and caring. It is the One which creates all the myriad creatures. It establishes their shape and form. The One creates all the myriad creatures, producing either a warm or cold environment in which they reach completion. The work of the Way and its virtue brings all things to completion." -- Tr. Bertschinger Earlier you noted: "http://www.sino-plat...early_China.pdf In the first quarter of the Han Dynasty, Jia Yi 賈誼 wrote: “that which is obtained in order to live, (we) call De” (所得以生謂之德), that “De is the beneficence [ the "澤 giving nature"] of the Dao” (德者道之澤也) and also that the loftiness of De is apparent in that of things, “there are none who do not rely on De” (莫不仰恃德)." There's some very consistent language between The Oneness, and De, both as that from which things arise, and (relatively) often mentioned as both being when talking about existence at this time, without yet mention of Dao, which is more the way and function of reality, what I referred to earlier as "the Character of De." Seeing the consistency of this discourse in classic texts, perhaps it makes more sense as to why the the Lao Tzu text was originally organized as opening with the De section (Chapter 38 +), rather than the Dao section. So, in my opinion, as a Daoist, I am a De(h)ist as well.

Thanks for this one! Here's my edited [in brackets] version of Legge's translation of these lines: 泰初有無，無有無名，一之所起，有一而未形。物得以生，謂之德；未形者有分，且然無間，謂之命；留動而生物，物成生理，謂之形；形體保神，各有儀則，謂之性。性修反德，德至同於初。同乃虛，虛乃大。 In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing [wu you, without existence] in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named [no name, I think this means "unity, no differentiation"]. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced [things could attain life], [the name of this De] (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call [Ming, Destiny] the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its [Xing, Nature] Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to [De] its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. To paraphrase: "The first existence without bodily shape -- this is De," "and from it, all things could obtain life. Then the formless was divided." 德者道之舍物得以生Or "De is the house of Dao; things which obtain It become alive." For De to be the house of Dao, the place that Dao resides... That seems to imply that Dao is the guest of De -- that De came first. So, here we have some very direct language, saying that "De is The One(/Primordial Unity)." Here's my translation of the first few lines - note that Bertschinger completely left out the word "Lord." 道生之，道生萬物。德畜之，德，一也。一主布氣 "Dao births" Dao births all things 德畜之，德，一也。 "De cultivates/raises (them)" 德，一也。 De is The One (也 appears at the end of sentences to say "is" to whatever precedes it.. for those who don't study the language) 一主布氣而蓄養物形之 The One Lord which proliferates Chi and protects and raises things of form Now compare with DDJ4 (my translation) -- 01 道沖,而用之, The Dao is the vessel in which everything is immersed. No matter how much it is used 02 或不盈。 It’s limit is never reached 03 淵兮, Profound depth! 04 似萬物之宗。 It seems to be the ancestor of all creation, of all things, ("resembles" not "is") 05 挫其銳, Reducing sharpness, and putting the clever back in their place 06 解其紛, Uncomplicating the confused, bringing order to the chaos 07 和其光, Softening the glare, and bringing harmony to the overzealous 08 同其塵。 Grounding them and reconnecting them to the earth 09 湛兮 Profound depth! 10 似或存。 It seems as though present 11 吾不知誰之子， I don’t know who’s child it is (this indicates that it (Dao) is not The One, the Primordial Unity) 12 象帝之先。 Bearing an image of, or likeness to, the 先First Divine Lord So you can see there that Dao has a "resemblance" to the Ancestor of all Creation, which is then later referred to as "The First Divine Lord," of whom, the Dao is an 象image! Thanks for all of these examples. They've really helped me to illustrate why I suggest that De appears to be the "First Divine Lord" from which all, including Dao, arose.

Swinging on instinct, catch yo-self on the brink, quick quick, ya blink, don’t think

Flowing from form-thoughts, sleeping in fleeing feeling thoughts, healing your dreaming while awake spots – beaming in believing , beaming beams that illuminate the rippling stream paths, trickling down and rolling over the toes, cold translucent bubbling water that runs out from silver metallic veins that lie within the rocky mountain tops.

70 years is peak time. I'd say drink at least one of the bricks as your friend wanted you to have it and enjoy it right? The quality is already slowly declining and has about 25 years left before the taste is gone, so I would either drink it or sell it. Storage in a clay box or sealed glass would be ideal. Be careful with wood boxes as they can change the flavour.

It's you're mind that's dirty (perv...)..

Interesting documentary on Flying Star Feng Shui http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzcMOUMvumI

Must say, it was very interesting (along with everything he said) to hear such an experienced and accomplished Daoist priest say that he is "a Christian, Daoist, Buddhist" (31m30sec). Nice to have someone like Jerry Alan Johnson in the syncretist camp. (if you want to respond, please just "like" the comment so we don't derail this discussion, thanks)

Just wanted to point out, that my reading of these lines was essentially the same as illucidated in Heshan Gong's commentary: 有名，萬物之母。有名謂天地。天地有形位、有陰陽、有柔剛，是其有名也。萬物母者，天地含氣生萬物，長大成熟，如母之養子也。 “With name(/appearance), the myriad things are born” “With (existing) name” refers to Heaven and Earth. Heaven and Earth are the seat of form. There exists yin and yang, there exists soft and firm, thus there exists Name. The ten thousand things have this as their mother, Heaven and Earth cherish chi and give birth to the ten thousand things. Lasting great completion is ripened, like a mother raises her son. You can read my translation, with some discussion, of the Heshang Gong commentary in my Personal Practice Discussion, here. Note that the discussion there is moderated by yours truly, and posts reflecting an abusive attitude may be deleted. However, constructive comments and criticisms are encouraged!

Sage tea is good too (green cooking sage, not smudging sage which is toxic to ingest). I knew it was good for concentration.. with what Turtle Shell says above, maybe I see why now, as it's also very good for the liver.

I agree and thanks for adding that. What I would say is, Chapter Five shows that, in this reality being the case, the standardized rules of humanity are no longer necessary when one "nurtures the center" and lives from this center, rather than living by the "forms" and "words" of court values. Exactly. Thanks for adding that.

Imagine: 1000 years of momentary stillness, that feels like about a month, goes by. They invite you up and pose to you the following options: You can continue as you are, for eternity; or, you can return as a human, and develop more, spiritually, and in wisdom; however, we will hide the answers to developing more, spiritually, and in wisdom, in the people you hate to deal with. Would you continue, or advance? and, if you advance, how many lifetimes would it take you to stop advancing?

Thanks for your views people. Cat seemed to get the idea the most, of what I was aiming at, basically, that dealing well with those people would provide us the development needed to advance spiritually and in wisdom. Just a notion that came across.. though I'd share it... that's all...

The main article talked about how the hippocampus seemed to shrink in people who had strong life changing spiritual experiences. Well, that would mean that their memories might be affected. Could be that they started living more in the present and so this area started to become reduced. The hippocampus also can shrink due to extreme stress. I'm thinking probably because it is a major receptor of stress and so reduces to minimize the impact. This might be useful for people who seek spiritual connections, since they will be able to focus more on the spiritual than on stress. However, obstinate and aggressive fundamentalism is, to me, a character issue which needs work, much like excessive egotism and selfishness. I think we see a fair amount of fundamentalist attitudes on TTB from time to time as well -- the idea that "you don't do this practice, or you don't do it this way, so you have no possible way to be truly connected to the spiritual. My way is the best, I'm better than you because you do this and I do that." That's essentially what fundamentalism comes down to -- a way to aggrandize one's self over others by standing on something greater than themselves. I also have to deal with some fundamentalist beliefs of an extended family member. Its frustrating to hear someone's logical fallacies come out in demeaning ways, and not really be able to do anything about it. The (other) family relationships are more important than our agreeing with each other on these things.. but, man!!!

I'd say it's definitely a good quality to have, but that it shouldn't control you. For example, you should still be able to "turn the light around" and nurture the center, not be always and only looking about externally, if you want to stay connected to/conscious of Dao.

Going to re-post this here, from my Personal Practice Discussion: [to explain why lines 5-10 are relevant to lines 1 to 4 of Chapter 5] They function both separately, and together. As I was explaining earlier, the chapter is about not having this contrived humanity which relies on formalities. Confucius' humanity/ren reflected his proximity to the court, and the formalities of the court, which were also part of rites and paying respects to ancestors. I say this because, even though The Dao De Jing may have been written before the Confucian Analects, when Confucius talked about "ren/humanity," he was talking about "ren/humanity" as it was understood by the court in which, and to which, he was a counsellor. What I said earlier (post #9) was: "lines 05-10 refer to being "empty" of "logical, hierarchical, humanity," which the sage does not need as he can be "empty without being finished." and does not need to rely on "so many countless words" but rather finds his humanity at the "center." Here is lines 05-10 with some (of my) commentary: 05 天地之間, The space of (between) heaven and earth (where does ci/love, true humanity, reside? between the space of heaven and earth) 06 其猶橐籥乎 Is like (the lungs, or) a bag-pipe (literally referring to a chinese bag pipe, but figuratively suggesting the action of our lungs, which fill naturally, just as ci/love comes naturally to the spirit) 07 虛而不屈, Empty without being finished (in ci/love, one gives even when they have nothing) 08 動而愈出。 ["movement yet more produced"] Rather than being exhausted by movement, the movement only generates more and more of what it produces (the more one loves, the more they will love) 09 多言數窮, So many countless words… (ci/love can't be "formalized") 10 不如守中。 Nothing like nurturing the center (formalities do not nurture the center, and they don't resemble the true sentiment of humanity, nor do they resemble ci/love which comes from nurturing the center like a hen nurtures her eggs [守 = roof over the small])

Thanks, and, long life to you as well. In fact it's good that you mentioned long life, as I was just returning to respond that, you can know the difference between anger that is "existing in perfection" with Equilibrium, and anger that is not by considering that much of Taoist wisdom was realized by knowing that some things provide and enhance life, while other things take away and diminish life. Try to know Equilibrium first: the absence of sorrow, anger, desire, and joy. This is a feeling of balance, perhaps "lightness" would be a better description, but it is not in any way a feeling of "lacking" anything. From there you might find contentment in the absence of desire, and find calm, rather than restlessness, in the absence of joy. In this absence or suspension of desire, as well as of the search for joy, anger and sorrow have very little, if anything, to stand on (however, suspend them too, if necessary). I suggest reading from the Nei Ye (link) between tasks or while in transit, and copying it to your phone. It will help you remember why, and how, to find Equilibrium. That's the starting point. I don't want to mislead you, by my other post (linked above), into thinking that the path is the opposite of the path. But just know that anger, in harmonious perfection with Equilibrium, will play a role in changing the situation as well. There should really be another word for anger when it's righteous and not egotistical. Anyway, I'm not suggesting cultivation of anger, but it can be your friend too . Harmonious Emptiness [edited to add final sentence clause, in brackets, to second paragraph]

very interesting conversation ha ha. Light shock! they should call it! When you're introduced to the light outside the cave, the first look might hurt a little bit at first!!

Just wanted to link a topic I wrote which was somewhat inspired by this one. Not wanting to go off on too much of tangent in this one, I just created a new thread to expand more on the subject. So, to read my response for this thread, please see the following: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32000-balanced-negative-emotions/