Harmonious Emptiness

Thanks. I can't find Chapter 51 there however.. This would make an interesting topic in Taoist Discussion. As for the OP here, I think "filling the belly" is, overall, significant of bringing people to grounded peaceful awareness, which is the "knowing" of the stomach. This "knowing" of the stomach, I believe, is especially in the lower dantien. When the lower dantien is vibrant, the kidneys are full of qi. When the kidneys are full of qi, the will and courage are also vibrant. This could lead to a discussion of Ming and Xing or "Destiny and Life" which are cultivated in Daoism, sometimes referred to as Water and Fire, and sometimes allocated to the kidneys and heart (respectively). [There is another discussion about Ming and Xing in the Dao De Jing here] I feel that this "knowing" of the belly is to "know for one's self" rather than just accepting, in the intellectual mind, what one learns or is told. Thus this also is part of knowing one's "real self" in a sense, since how can you know "yourself" if you can't know "for yourself." These are things that the Sage wants for all people, in order to keep them, and thus society, autonomously healthy and harmonious.

They also show the difference between MWD-A and B for chapter 51. I can't seem to find pictures of MWD scrolls that are easy to navigate. So the meridian times don't follow the wuxing "progressive" progression like the organs. Interesting that the Earth meridians are active with the Fire organs at 7am, followed by Fire meridians with Earth organs around noon. Then it's water meridians over Earth and then metal organs, and it gets more varied after that. Something that would probably have deeper implications someplace maybe. Someday, I hope to get more familiar with the meridians and applications. How does the macrocosmic orbit correspond to this order I'm wondering?

lol... okay, so the Chinese Text Project was less than specific there. Note for future reference -- find the character via the search, but check them out for myself.. Sorry, meant Nei Jing / Treatise of Huang Di. Interesting chart. Is there a link that explains it further? edit: I hope we're not getting too far away from "keeping one foot on the topic." Just trying to see where all the uses of "belly" were coming from and going. A great topic really...

Yeah they might become aware of it at first but it wouldn't keep the mind from being quiet(ed), even if someone uses it as an excuse as to why they are not at peace. It could be a distraction for you however, but likely just in the same capacity that it would be for them.. ie., potential scapegoat for non-clarity..

"yes... I could ponder it but my inner voice says to let it go for now... interesting stuff." Keeping in mind, that the Guodian, the older text, was using 謂wei"this is called." This suggests that maybe the Dao De Jing was more prevalent across regions and dialects than the standardization of (these) characters. Brings an interesting quandry: would the Dao De Jing be more influenced by the Classic of Rites or the Nei Jia (and had the Nei Jia already been written, whether or not the knowledge was in practice already)? I remember Joel Seigneur saying that 7am is the best time to eat.. I forget why, but it would have been explained according to 5 element theory. Maybe the meridian is connected to liver and gall bladder/Wood? I forgot that wood element starts at 3am. Going back to Joel Seigneur again, apparently the sexual organs (now "kidneys/water") were considered the source of heat for the body and also fire element, but this was changed in more recent decades due to prudism.

just looked this up here and 2. is wrong actually... The stomach is Earth element which corresponds to the afternoon and late summer. Speech is associated with metal. Earth/stomach is associated with Thought, which corresponds to my earlier presumption: "With close to 20 other "wèi" homonyms to choose from, why use "stomach?" Because the stomach, as the Chinese well knew, is a place of understanding" (I was going to say as meditators well know, but figured the Cha'an influence was enough to say Chinese culture in general. Pretty sure the WuXing chart was probably in my subconscious though..).

Seems they just counted 胃 as 謂 when I look through those chapters. Chinese Text Project gave me 3 and 1. Hmm, I wonder what their reasons were for dating it later.. that would be interesting too

Though I sort of like the idea of writing without a net.. I`ve had a fair number of things having been said which were deleted after I did or wanted to respond to them, and it wasn`t all that big a deal. I also can appreciate that people change their feelings on things and don`t want their old negative emotions to float around like landmines.on the forum. m2c

I've been wondering how you do those searches.. thanks for that... In those examples, it seems that 是胃 "this stomachs" has a connotation like "this is the base of...." With close to 20 other "wèi" homonyms to choose from, why use "stomach?" Because the stomach, as the Chinese well knew, is a place of understanding. Wei/stomach appears to be commonly used within other characters as a phonetic, but, as usual, Chinese texts of this time period are notoriously equivocal and suggestive with their word plays, so, personally, I wouldn't rule out the potential of a deeper implication here (DDJ16) referring directly to the stomach, especially with so many possible connections surrounding it. Some interesting notes: I see that 謂 wei "this is called" appears three times in the Guodian (oldest) while only once in MWD (next oldest) texts. Chapter 51 of MWD-A text (going by standard chapter chronology), uses "this is called.." while MWD-B text uses "stomach." I guess this would suggest that the MWD-A text was coming from a place closer to the cultural changes of the time.

Chuang Tzu says it so much better than I could.. but I see it mostly as manners out of appropriate context.. wrote repetition.. to analyze it more would over-focus on it rather than curing something that isn't there

There may be some chance of that, but, I don't think wei would be one of those words. Surely someone would have been there to help, as the MWD texts were very complete, and the MWD texts were written almost 200 years after the Confucian Analects. The whole period of "100 schools of thought" was constantly defining things with "wei/this is called...". If there was some sort of discontinuity in phrasing due to scholarship, I think, in this case is would be the sparsity of the characters used in saying 是胃復= This [is the] stomach returning 命﹦ [To] destiny/Ming Or better yet "This stomachs the return to destiny" In either of these ways, it seems to suggest that the stomach is the place of knowing and understanding Ming/destiny. Of course, later scholars not always being versed in Daoist knowledge, this would be changed to allow more people to have a sense of grasping it.

Some would like to say that there is no connection between virtue and De (德, often translated as "inner power" or virtue) in the Dao De Jing, and that reading it as such is merely forcing a Christian or Confucian worldview on the text. Other's, such as myself, would like to show that De is very much connected to virtue in the Confucian sense, and even in the Christian sense of the word as "moral virtue," as it is both virtuous, the numinous embodiment of Virtue Itself, and humanity's corresponding quality in nature, of virtue. Perhaps there are also language barriers which lead to such confusion about the virtue (power) of using the word "virtue" to describe De, so below are some definitions (bold mine) of virtue to help show the applicability of the term to De. Please note that the word "virtue" in English also has the synonyms of "moral excellence," "efficacity," and "force or power," as the character 德 De has in Classical Chinese. 1. a. Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness. b. An example or kind of moral excellence: the virtue of patience. 2. Chastity, especially in a woman. 3. A particularly efficacious, good, or beneficial quality; advantage: a plan with the virtue of being practical. 4. Effective force or power: believed in the virtue of prayer. 5. virtues Christianity The fifth of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology. 6. Obsolete Manly courage; valor. We can look at chapter 51 and see how De is a numinous power, yes, but is there no virtue in this power? Is the power not the macro version of virtue itself? And if one wishes to be in accord with this power, can they do so without "virtue" in the Confucian and/or Christian sense? Chapter 51 (Yutang trans.) Tao gives them birth, Teh (character) fosters them. The material world gives them form. The circumstances of the moment complete them. Therefore all things of the universe worship Tao and exalt Teh. Tao is worshipped and Teh is exalted Without anyone's order but is so of its own accord. Therefore Tao gives them birth, Teh fosters them, Makes them grow, develops them, Gives them a harbor, a place to dwell in peace, Feeds them and shelter them. It gives them birth and does not own them, Acts (helps) and does not appropriate them, Is superior, and does not control them. - This is the Mystic Virtue. So then we have the question, does the Dao De Jing completely separate the power of De and virtuous behaviour? Does one need to behave virtuously in order to have De? It would help to take a look at Chapters 10 and 28, the only Chapters where De appears in the first volume (ch. 1-37): Chapter Ten (Feng/English trans.) Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, Can you avoid separation? Attending fully and becoming supple, Can you be as a newborn babe? Washing and cleansing the primal vision, Can you be without stain? Loving all men and ruling the country, Can you be without cleverness? Opening and closing the gates of heaven, Can you play the role of woman? Understanding and being open to all things, Are you able to do nothing? Giving birth and nourishing, Bearing yet not possessing, Working yet not taking credit, Leading yet not dominating, This is the Primal Virtue. [last line, 是謂玄德, literally, "This is called profound/deep De"] Chapter 28 (Lin Yutang trans.) He who is aware of the Male But keeps to the Female Becomes the ravine of the world. Being the ravine of the world, He has the original character (teh) which is not cut up. And returns again to the (innocence of the) babe. He who is conscious of the white (bright) But keeps to the black (dark) Becomes the model for the world. Being the model for the world, He has the eternal power which never errs, And returns again to the Primordial Nothingness. He who is familiar with honor and glory But keeps to obscurity Becomes the valley of the world. Being the valley of the world, He has an eternal power which always suffices, And returns again to the natural integrity of uncarved wood. Break up this uncarved wood And it is shaped into vessel In the hands of the Sage They become the officials and magistrates. Therefore the great ruler does not cut up. Both of these chapters show that De is related to modesty, not being boastful, and similar qualities. This virtue of modesty and unselfishness is probably the most prevalent instruction throughout the Dao De Jing, and is at the base of virtuous behaviour/unselfish behaviour. As you can see in Chapter 28, this virtue leads to the inherent power of virtue: Virtue. It's also easy enough to see that Chapter 28 is repeating the same message three times using different poetically descriptive means: male vs. female; white vs. black = honour and glory vs. obscurity. Sure there are innumerable things to be learned via these verses, but they also show what sorts of "virtue" one requires to maintain or realize De. This sort of "virtue" is also very prevalent in Confucian teachings, as well as Christian teachings (not to mention every other wisdom teachings passed down by elders of true wisdom). We can see that this is also the same virtuous quality of Sages, in Chapter Seven: Chapter Seven (Yutang trans.) The universe is everlasting. The reason the universe is everlasting Is that it does not life for Self. Therefore it can long endure. Therefore the Sage puts himself last, And finds himself in the foremost place; Regards his body as accidental, And his body is thereby preserved. Is it not because he does not live for Self That his Self is realized? So this way of the universe and that allows it to be everlasting, is that it does not think of itself first. This is exactly the same quality that describes De. We can also see this quality in the teachings of water, as illustrated in Chapter Eight: Chapter Eight (Yutang trans.) The best of men is like water; Water benefits all things And does not compete with them. It dwells in (the lowly) places that all disdain - Wherein it comes near to the Tao. In his dwelling, (the Sage) loves the (lowly) earth; In his heart, he loves what is profound; In his relations with others, he loves kindness; In his words, he loves sincerity; In government, he loves peace; In business affairs, he loves ability; In his actions, he loves choosing the right time. It is because he does not contend That he is without reproach. So if we are to speak about De as the counterpart to Dao as it appears in Chapter 51, can we not reasonably state that this power is all or either a.) virtuous, b.) the ultimate power of Virtue Itself, or c.) the corresponding quality in nature to human virtue? Yes, De fosters creation, but is this fostering of creation not the same selfless propensity to serve others which Confucianism and Christianity would say makes a person virtuous? Does this not mean that De is very much the numinous embodiment of Virtue?

Exactly. True virtue.... This is the point I'm trying to make -- that the Lao Tzu differentiates between false and true virtue (and to know De, one must know true virtue). Thanks for your comment Wu Ming Jen!

CD, why would they use a phonetic for 謂 wei ("is called/said to be") instead of just using 謂 wei, which was used all the time?

There are actually many interesting differences between the MaWangDui texts and the Wang Bi text. I think I'll do a topic on the chapter in my personal practice discussion. But to answer your question, there is also a reference to the sky which does not appear in the Wang Bi text. Note line 03 talks about "arising" then 05 says all living beings are like clouds (which is rising vapour); followed by "Returning to the foundation is called Peaceful Harmony"; (note chapter 39: "Earth attained The One and became Tranquil.... When Earth loses tranquility, it becomes...."). (Wang Bi's alternate characters in [brackets]) 01 至虛極也 至Arrive at [致Deliver] the ultimate(Ji as in Taiji) of emptiness/hollowness and 02 守靜督也 Attentively conserve calm stillness 03 萬物旁作 Myriad creatures, side by side [並at the same time], mutually arising 04 吾以觀亓復也 They thereby observe the return 也as well (yes, 也 is usually a particle, but if it didn't sometimes mean "also" in 400BC....) 05 天物:芸芸 天物雲﹦ Heavens creatures, like (all) so many clouds 雲(雲) [芸芸numerous, so numerous] 06 各復 Each one returns [back to their 根foundations] 07 各復歸於亓根曰靜﹦ [歸根曰靜] 各Each return back, alas! The foundation is peaceful harmony [Returning to the foundation is called Peaceful Harmony] 08 是胃復﹦(same in MWD1) 是謂復命 This 胃stomach again [This is called returning to 命destiny] 09 復命曰常, 命﹦(same in MWD1) Returning to destiny is called 常 the intrinsic eternal 命Destiny So, arising like clouds (in the sky) and returning to the belly... One might say this refers to energy rising to the upper dantien and then returning, which results in "natural illumination" as referred to in line 10: 常也知常明也 [知常曰明] (difficult to translate but best explanation is maybe) 常Things come about in this way, and it is known as the 明illumination 常that occurs 常naturally/frequently (or deeper might mean) The 常Intrinsic Eternal is known as Eternal Intrinsic Wisdom Wang Bi has: "知Knowing the 常natural/common/frequent is called enlightenment"

An interesting note on the stomach in DDJ is Chapter 16 in both MaWangDui manuscripts, lines 07 to 09 say: 07 各復歸於亓根曰靜﹦ Each return back, alas! The foundation is peaceful harmony 是胃復= This [is the] stomach returning 命﹦ To destiny/Ming rather than "this is called returning to destiny" (Wang Bi/received text) The whole chapter, imo, is very much about the rising and falling of energy/vapour, which naturally returns to the earth/stomach.

Thought I should state for the record: The method I'm applying (however well...) was learned by Zhongxian Wu from a mountain Daoist of the Youlong Pai lineage, which traces back to The Eight Immortals. The book includes a long lineage of Yijing prediction knowledge, which goes back to nei gong teachers from about 10th century AD. Also, mistaken understandings and even natural phenomena can help in determining which gua/guas is/are being referred to. In this case, the totally unintentional mis-attempt led me to see the only feasible way that the transmission makes (perfect) sense as an indication of which hexagram(s) to read. note: oldest daughter suggests older woman, middle daughet suggests middle age, youngest daughter suggests younger... this is why I say," daughter" likely suggests youngest daughter/joyfullness/Dui.

Oh right! whoops. I confused myself because the Fu Xi hex. 15 is actually the reverse, Lake over Mountain. Unless maybe "Daughter Under Mountain" meant "Daugher (this is above), Under (is) Mountain." I'm wondering if the tone in the communication was like this and led JustaRandomPanda to present it as s/he did. Otherwise, I can't see any Old Yang that would change to yin and/or any associations relating to hexagram 16 (from any sequence) I'm wondering if the "grammar" of the communication was "Hexigram 16 [becomes] Daughter [this is the most powerful/on top] Under [is] Mountain [because] In Winter [Heaven (from #16) is metal/autumn, and becomes Winter/water element/Lake, when] Old Yang becomes Yin Hexigram 16 [is the originating hexagram]" That would confirm my earlier theories too. To interpret trigram and hexagram indications like this, according to Wu's "Shamanic Yijing," we need to be very open to the "non-linear" subtleties until they all come together. From my perspective, these seems to be the "non-linear" indications that have lined up, with almost no other congruent possibilities. JustaRandomPanda, from a personal observation, I'd say you are making progress in developing the virtue of the middle dantien. This can help to allow you and virtuous spirits to understand each other, like two notes of the same frequency knowing when they are in tune. It's great that you're working with and studying Liao Fan's 4 Lessons to help guide you as well in this direction !

Mountain over Lake (Fu Xi hex. 15) becomes "hexagram 16" by changing the top yin to yang. So, "hexagram 16" (Fu Xi), Heaven over Lake. "Old yang becomes Yin, Daughter under Mountain" The top yang changes to yin and we get "Mountain over Lake."

According to Zhongxian Wu's book "Shamanic Yijing," Dui/Lake signifies young girl (among other things) and the other trigrams have different personalities associated rather than young girl. I'm pretty sure Daughter would refer to Dui/Lake. It's interesting to note that Lake and Mountain face each other in the pre-heaven bagua map. According to the Fu Hsi sequence ("based on the pre-heaven bagua map") Mountain over Lake is hexagram 15 which changes to hexagram 16. So I think hexagram 16 of the Fu Xi sequence is being referred to here: Heaven over Lake This is hexagram #10 by the King Wen sequence, "Treading." (gotta go for now...)

I guess it really depends on who one gets their teaching from as a representative of each tradition. Chogyam Trungpa was not afraid to talk about foolish compassion, and the necessity at times to be uncompassionate when someone is pushing you from the path without justifiable reason. There are many stories like this with enlightened Buddhist masters who were not afraid to be shocking in their sudden "switch" on people when they were out of line. I think the base of compassion in both Buddhism and Taoism is seeing beyond self. This is a practice in all mystical traditions and cultures. Who does it more is a matter of individuals, individual choice, and circumstances. There might be a difference in the practice of compassion too when we consider that showing too much compassion can infantalize and rob certain people of the chance to learn autonomy. Further, we might help someone do something they shouldn't because we have unyielding compassion for them. So to say what IS compassionate can change all the time. I think this is known in all cultures and traditions as well. Though I don't agree with all of The Seekers points, but I think it's true that the staunch practice of compassion is especially to help one maintain their Bodhi mind or Dao mind, while in turn increasing harmony in their environment which is for the greater good, circulating this force of harmony like new money into a small economy - if people learn to keep on circulating it, it will come back... So really the Dalai Lama is running a compassion pyramid scheme!!! (joking, joking, joking....)

If they take "esoteric practices" out of that list the only "sect" left would be basically be Satanism. Including "esoteric practices" in the list covers basically all Eastern religions. They need to take "esoteric practices" out of the list as it basically discriminates against against ALL non-monotheistic religions (and a few monotheists too, like Sufi). Including "esoteric practices" there is a serious culturally discriminatory act with no basis in protecting anyone. They seem to assume that "esoteric practices" will include harming people or one's self. Again, this is a baseless cultural discrimination against ALL non-monotheistic religions and must be treated as such. That is how the battle needs to be fought, imo.

Try to talk to someone who makes decisions there if you can..

thanks for sharing this. She said she studied with Mingtong.. www.chicenter.com

does the petition count people who do not live in the UK?