Harmonious Emptiness

Sex, Health, and Long Life: Manuals of Taoist Practice (trans. Cleary)A translation of The Yellow Emperor's medical advice especially for aging men Michael Winn has a vast amount to say on the matter as well.

Earth is the visible manifestation of the "effortless order" (see comment on hexagram one) of the heavens. At least, that's the basic foundation, imo.

The heavens are in effortless order. When the heart, mind, spirit, and environment are in order "of themselves," this emulates the heavens.

Happy New Year TTB!

1. Well, some might consider me a Daoist, and I might say to the coerced student that he should worry more about who his friends are than whether or not he smokes pot, and that it's not worth smoking pot to have friends that don't want you to walk your own path. 2. see post #2 3. If he can, try to help the friend by tutoring him. 4. Would need more information to answer that, but remind the student that compromising their virtue will not afford them the enduring luck and destiny that virtuous living brings.

The character for wei is a claw leading an elephant, which suggests forceful action, leading, governing; but, when action is done for one's own purpose, selfishly, without thought of the other that is being led, this is when things are "forced," this is when action leads astray from the will of Heaven, the cosmic order, and the micro-cosmic order of humanity. I think "Textual Studies" would be a good place to discuss meanings (edit: and translations) and such (since so many texts discussed meanings too)..

Goes along with the Christian parable "don't try to remove the speck of dust from your neighbours eye before you move the stick from your own," imo. How does one know what others need when our perception is distorted?

Regardless of the wayward views about wu wei, Taoists seek to better their environment, their bodies, their minds, and even the minds and bodies of others by using their skills of restoring harmony. To do so sometimes requires decisive action, intolerant of failure. This might be characterized as anger, and perhaps rightfully so, but the motivation is more the point of import. If the motivation is selfish, this is not wu wei; while selfless action is what might be called wei wu wei, or wu wei in action. If I'm confusing you a bit, you might want to read about wu wei meaning non-selfish action.

Was a bit delighted to read the following article today which touched on the points I was putting forth in the OP here. http://ymaa.com/articles/the-dao-of-kung-fu?utm_expid=1405513-2.WuymPi-ESZiQA5K9wPC3ZA.0

Whatever the critics might have to say, he has a profound and vast knowledge of Daoist culture with a beautiful way of transferring it in writing. For this reason, every one of his books is a treasure.

I'd suggest to read 此之謂物化 more as "this speaks of the transformation of things" rather than "this is called transformation of things." If Zhuangzi can dream of being a butterfly and not even know that he isn't, then it shows how the mind can be in any body and experience life. Zhuangzi's mind can experience life from the perspective of a butterfly. This points to the essence of mind, imo, which exists in all things, everywhere, and so enables "transformation" as all things have essence of mind in no matter what form. They can transform from this to that, but the essence of mind does not change, and this is why they can be the same yet transformed. The water trigram (yang surrounded by yin) speaks of this, and perhaps was even being subtly referenced. Water can take any shape without losing its essential nature. The internal yang line is solid, while the external yin lines are flexible.

I thought to say when posting earlier that it seems obvious enough Chuang Tzu was making a bit of a caricature of Confucius, and that when talking about ren, it’s not what it’s definition is, but how it was perceived by sages, which is that it was over-systematized. Heaven and Earth’s behaviour doesn’t follow these precepts. Dao follows it’s own way.

This thread has inspired me actually. I have a small but beautiful bodhran that I received as a gift. To small to use as a bodhran but really nice tones when used as a frame drum. The technique is interesting and something to get better at - the "slap" tone is a finger snap, like with darbouka which I never learned traditionally. It's a bit easier when holding a frame drum though. It really is perhaps the most overtone rich drum, making it very meditative. The rhythm is more subtle than most percussion styles too, similar to tablas but easier to to get decent at. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUKFckvifZU

Now, having read this (post #16 above) does the meaning of chapter five of the Dao De Jing not seem to be more connected from beginning to end? 5 1. Heaven and Earth are not benevolent; 2. They regard the the thousand things as straw dogs. 3. The Sage is not benevolent; 4. He regards the common people as straw dogs. 5. The space between Heaven and Earth—is it not like a bellow? 6. It is empty and yet not depleted; 7. Move it and more [always] comes out. 8. Much learning means frequent exhaustions. 9. That's not so good as holding on to the mean. I would suggest here that "straw dogs" here could refer to their simplicity, or otherwise that they are formed and shaped by these ideas of benevolence and righteousness just like we are formed and shaped by the Heavens. Rather than have all of these ideas of benevolence, Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu suggest freeing the mind of thoughts and strictures. Know your nature and thus not be so easily molded and twisted. Your goodness is in your true nature, not in conforming yourself to the teachings of others. "Thus there was in them what is called the want of any mind to resist the Dao [ie., they had to no mind which resists the Dao], and of all attempts by means of the Human to assist the Heavenly. Such were they who are called the True men. Being such, their minds were free from all thought; their demeanour was still and unmoved; their foreheads beamed simplicity." - Chuang Tzu Now, remember that thought was said to be located in the heart. Now read again the second part of chapter five: 5. The space between Heaven and Earth—is it not like a bellow? 6. It is empty and yet not depleted; 7. Move it and more [always] comes out. 8. Much learning means frequent exhaustions. 9. That's not so good as holding on to the mean. We can be without all of these strictures and thoughts, rules of benevolence and righteousness, yet our heart-minds (between the head/Heaven and stomach/earth) will still be inexhaustibly full - even more so. "When I pronounce men to be good, I am not speaking of their benevolence and righteousness; the goodness is simply (their possession of) the qualities (of the Dao). When I pronounce them to be good, I am not speaking of what are called benevolence and righteousness; but simply of their allowing the nature with which they are endowed to have its free course." - Chuang Tzu I think that all of this shows, at least, what Chuang Tzu understood chapter five to mean.

Some more thoughts on benevolence from the Chuang Tzu (Watson trans.). Note the quotation from Dao De Jing chapter four in section II: from Section II "The Great Way is not named; Great Discriminations are not spoken; Great Benevolence is not benevolent; Great Modesty is not humble; Great Daring does not attack. If the Way is made clear, it is not the Way. If discriminations are put into words, they do not suffice. If benevolence has a constant object, it cannot be universal.17 If modesty is fastidious, it cannot be trusted. If daring attacks, it cannot be complete. These five are all round, but they tend toward the square.18 Therefore understanding that rests in what it does not understand is the finest. Who can understand discriminations that are not spoken, the Way that is not a way? If he can understand this, he may be called the Reservoir of Heaven. Pour into it and it is never full, dip from it and it never runs dry, and yet it does not know where the supply, comes from. This is called the Shaded [concealed] Light.19 [....] Men claim that Mao-ch'iang and Lady Li were beautiful, but if fish saw them they would dive to the bottom of the stream, if birds saw them they would fly away, and if deer saw them they would break into a run. Of these four, which knows how to fix the standard of beauty for the world? The way I see it, the rules of benevolence and righteousness and the paths of right and wrong are all hopelessly snarled and jumbled. How could I know anything about such discriminations?" from Section VI (Legge trans.) The True men of old knew nothing of the love of life or of the hatred of death. Entrance into life occasioned them no joy; the exit from it awakened no resistance. Composedly they went and came. They did not forget what their beginning bad been, and they did not inquire into what their end would be. They accepted (their life) and rejoiced in it; they forgot (all fear of death), and returned (to their state before life). Thus there was in them what is called the want of any mind to resist the Dao [ie., they had to no mind which resists the Dao], and of all attempts by means of the Human to assist the Heavenly. Such were they who are called the True men. Being such, their minds were free from all thought; their demeanour was still and unmoved; their foreheads beamed simplicity. Whatever coldness came from them was like that of autumn; whatever warmth came from them was like that of spring. Their joy and anger assimilated to what we see in the four seasons. They did in regard to all things what was suitable, and no one could know how far their action would go. Therefore the sagely man might, in his conduct of war, destroy a state without losing the hearts of the people; his benefits and favours might extend to a myriad generations without his being a lover of men. Hence he who tries to share his joys with others is not a sagely man; he who manifests affection [有親 you qin] is not benevolent; he who observes times and seasons (to regulate his conduct) is not a man of wisdom; he to whom profit and injury are not the same is not a superior man; he who acts for the sake of the name of doing so, and loses his (proper) self is not the (right) scholar; and he who throws away his person in a way which is not the true (way) cannot command the service of others. from Section VIII (Legge trans.) A duck's legs, for instance, are short, but if we try to lengthen them, it occasions pain; and a crane's legs are long, but if we try to cut off a portion of them, it produces grief. Where a part is by nature long, we are not to amputate, or where it is by nature short, we are not to lengthen it. There is no occasion to try to remove any trouble that it may cause. The presumption is that benevolence and righteousness are not constituents of humanity; for to how much anxiety does the exercise of them give rise! Moreover when another toe is united to the great toe, to divide the membrane makes you weep; and when there is an extra finger, to gnaw it off makes you cry out. In the one case there is a member too many, and in the other a member too few; but the anxiety and pain which they cause is the same. The benevolent men of the present age look at the evils of the world, as with eyes full of dust, and are filled with sorrow by them, while those who are not benevolent, having violently altered the character of their proper nature, greedily pursue after riches and honours. The presumption therefore is that benevolence and righteousness are contrary to the nature of man - how full of trouble and contention has the world been ever since the three dynasties began! [....] Why then should benevolence and righteousness be employed as connecting (links), or as glue and varnish, strings and bands, and the enjoyment arising from the Dao and its characteristics be attributed to them? It is a deception practised upon the world. Where the deception is small, there will be a change in the direction (of the objects pursued); where it is great, there will be a change of the nature itself. How do I know that it is so? Since he of the line of Yu called in his benevolence and righteousness to distort and vex the world, the world has not ceased to hurry about to execute their commands - has not this been by means of benevolence and righteousness to change (men's views) of their nature? [....] When I pronounce men to be good, I am not speaking of their benevolence and righteousness; the goodness is simply (their possession of) the qualities (of the Dao). When I pronounce them to be good, I am not speaking of what are called benevolence and righteousness; but simply of their allowing the nature with which they are endowed to have its free course. When I pronounce men to be quick of hearing, I do not mean that they hearken to anything else, but that they hearken to themselves; when I pronounce them to be clear of vision, I do not mean that they look to anything else, but that they look to themselves. Now those who do not see themselves but see other things, who do not get possession of themselves but get possession of other things, get possession of what belongs to others, and not of what is their own; and they reach forth to what attracts others, and not to that in themselves which should attract them. But thus reaching forth to what attracts others and not to what should attract them in themselves, be they like the robber Zhi or like Bo-yi, they equally err in the way of excess or of perversity. What I am ashamed of is erring in the characteristics of the Dao, and therefore, in the higher sphere, I do not dare to insist on the practice of benevolence and righteousness, and, in the lower, I do not dare to allow myself either in the exercise of excess or perversity.

The same thing goes for non-percussion instruments. It's much easier to copy a phrase after singing it (beep-ba-da-ba-dap-bap-baa, etc.) both for the pitches and rhythm of it.

Agreed. I do this quite a bit. It helps if you have some smooth breath control via woodwind practice. Another way to do it is inhale for 8 beats and then exhale for 8 beats.

So I don't think that says so much of what ren meant to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu then.

I did see those, but those are also Confucian commentaries on the lines, no?

I did a search for 仁 in "Book of Changes" but it only showed up in Confucian commentary.

Where exactly can I find these quotes?

Thanks for the contribution MH. As you probably remember, this was essentially the stance on the matter which I had taken previously - that ren referred to partiality towards those closest to him or her. I would suggest that this partiality is also part of the conformity which I'm talking about now. After all, to ignore the expectations of this partiality would have been viewed as almost inexplicably non-conformist, save perhaps for the Mohists which were a bit of a fringe group as well. And of course, that partiality is based on loyalty - the same thing which imposes conformist thinking and behaviours. Also, would you have the chapter numbers of the excerpts from the Chuang Tzu? I don't recognize those titles.

just wanted to say somewhere, that Dao De Jing would be best anglicized as "Classic on Dao, and the Way of Virtue."

I agree that Zhongyong goes in this direction as well; though it was written by Confucius' grandson Zisi 子思 (interesting name -- "Master Mind Cultivation/Contemplation" since contemplation 思 is depicted with "heart-mind; land that can be cultivated"), rather than by Confucius. I think it's not really hidden that the depiction of Confucius was supposed to be a caricature, cartoonish even, used as a catalyst to critique the wayward loyalty to a prescribed conformity, conformity of behaviour and reactions, as required of people by the social hegemony that had developed from Confucius' writings. Though the question here is not so much about what ren meant to Confucians (after Confucius, who likely read the Dao De Jing), but what ren means in the Chuang Tzu, and the Lao Tzu.