Harmonious Emptiness

Had an interesting notion: De is the Yang of Dao. Dao is the more yin, wu wei, passive, from which all is born; De is that which forms them. So Dao would be yin, De yang. !!?

Just want to say before I respond -- don't miss my last post (from today), now hiding at the end of page 2 I'd agree that this makes sense, though of course we can't define De with any single word... nor perhaps without certain words.

As I see it, when De is in a person, it works through that person, sort of like a muse or what some musicians call "the pocket" where there is an internal guide that one allows to do the guiding rather than trying to guide things themselves with their knowledge and ideas. De guides people to act according to De. This may not always be "virtuous" in the standardized sort of virtue laid out in treatises, but is virtuous as De works from a higher understanding of the way things work (not unlike, according to some stories in the Bible, following the will of God might lead someone to do something seemingly wrong but it is right because it was following the will of God who/which has a greater understanding of what is good or bad at a certain moment). So this inner guide, to me, is the result of holding De within (see chapter 28). Holding this inner guide within is also to BE virtuous or HAVE virtue in the more common use of the word, but in a Daoist perspective of what it means to have virtue. What is the virtue that one HAS or IS? -- DE So, yes, De is a power beyond simply knowing what to do, but it's character, however unfathomable, is ultimately the ultimate picture of what virtue is (whether it fits anyone's understanding of what virtue/morality means or not). Again, it is beyond our understanding of morality and virtue, but that's because our understanding of morality and virtue is flawed or incomplete. Like Dao, It ultimately completes things to the way they should be. This to me is virtue beyond morality. It is also power, but it is the power which brings things to completion and thus THEIR ultimate virtue. Whatever does this is only working towards virtue, and when it does this without even trying, like water being wet, then that is it's nature and character. So wetness and water are distinguishable, but completely inseparable. De and virtue is like water and wetness. We can look at water and it's density, chemical make up, it's laws in physics, but how can we TRULY know anything about water for ourselves in our actual personal existence, if we deny that water is wet and wetness is water? This was the source of issue the other thread.. if I had the ability to look at the chemical make up of water, its density, it's laws in physics, and it's function in the world, I'd be happy to do so; but, if we start that with the premise that it's not wet and doesn't act in the world as wetness/moisture, then how does one actually examine water and say they've figured anything out about it? sorry for the long post, I hope you'll have some breathing space to throw me a few uppercuts too

Dawei, I think perhaps one major source of our disagreement or misunderstanding is that: when I say "De exemplifies virtue" I mean "De exemplifies virtue as it is presented in the Dao De Jing, ie., the virtue of the "Sage,"" Imo, Confucians, and other traditions, seek perfect virtue, but they don't necessarily know what that is. The Dao De Jing shows what true and perfect virtue is, and often corrects former ideas of what virtue is. So it is only the virtue, as presented in the Dao De Jing, that I am saying is connected with (Daoist) De. Further, again, this "Daoist virtue" is ultimately the universal virtue of humanity, whether they have it or not, or know it or not. Sure, Daoist virtue is not so much a contrived act as it seems to be other traditions, but there is a level where humans do the same as De in the same way as De, and what they do is virtuous, whether kind, courageous, honest, disciplined, natural, or whichever -- they're actions are like those of De.

I'll need a source for this. Sounds more like zi-ran, iyam, though I would consider zi-ran a part of De, or positive characteristic of De (to avoid the V word). But then how does one say that the qualities of De do not apply to the guidance for human (sagely) behaviour as presented in the Dao De Jing? Just about every time a quality of Dao or De or 善 goodness is described in the Dao De Jing, the description is followed by saying that a Sage has the same qualities. This is why I'm using quotes from the DDJ. We can have our ideas of what Laozi meant (which some say is all I have), but without connecting these ideas to what Laozi wrote, what basis do we have to say that is what he meant? This "placing himself below" is virtuous action. It is shown over and over again as something that both nature and Sages do, in the Dao De Jing. Putting one's self last is also a virtue in Confucianism, which is part of why I say the separation between the idea of "what is good" "what is virtuous" does not differ much between Daoism and Confucianism. There are some differences, such as "frankness" in Daoism, but this is still considered a "virtue" of the Sage. Well, we might have to get into a discussion Xing in Confucianism, as this concept also extends the idea of virtue across nature. Okay, but we are talking about what Laozi said. Quite a bit of the old ways of thinking were sort of "revised" via DDJ. edit: a few words in 4th paragraph

Can you provide me with some source material type of textual basis to show that this is the Laoist perspective? We can state opinions all day but if we're saying "this is what it says" then we need to back that with some actual passages and a discussion on said passages.

Thanks for sharing that ion, and Aloha!

No not at all, because virtue in humanity is also a power, a feeling. Perhaps Love is the best multi-meaning word for it. De is to Dao what virtue is to humanity. I think it's safe to say that there was a similar notion of fatherhood in ancient China, that while the mother loves unconditionally, the father provides unconditionally. If we read Chapter 51, this seems to be the suggestion, that Dao gives birth (female) and then De raises them (disciplines, provides shelter and food, etc.). Of course, for humanity, both mother and father play a part in the birth of a child, and both have a role in forming that child (nourishing, teaching, etc.). Now, male/female comparisons aside, the Dao simply gives birth - this is just an action regardless of action or inaction.. it just happens as a matter of course. De then exhibits the universal qualities of virtue in fostering: Teh fosters them, Makes them grow, develops them, Gives them a harbor, a place to dwell in peace, Feeds them and shelter them. It gives them birth and does not own them, Acts (helps) and does not appropriate them, Is superior, and does not control them. If people want to twist words, they might say "parents act out of innate love, it is wu wei, a matter of course, not virtue," but I don't think I need to explain why that's not the case. Further, it is the same characteristics of parental love which describe the actions of De, and also of a Sage acting with sagely virtue on humanity, unselfishly, as though all humanity were his children. Interesting point, though we could argue that the compiled texts which made up the later Dao De Jing were from the same community of people, and written around the same time, and thus all definitive of early Daoist knowledge.

Thanks for sharing your view Marblehead, however, I think your argument is missing the fact that the word virtue refers on a whole to the basic universal principle of goodness/kindness/uprightness. I don't think acts of nature, such as hurricanes or tornados, are usually ascribed levels of virtue by people, but even when they are, it is usually considered an "act of God" to carry out "His" "virtuous" plan. This would correspond to the necessity of accepting the existence of a conflict and making the difficult decisions to rectify it, accepting the immediate and difficult consequences of doing so. This still corresponds to common notions of "someone who does what needs to be done, regardless of difficulty" as "virtuous." edit: a couple of other points, I'll move to this discussion 1) The Virtue of Christianity (following the will of the Almighty) might be different than the Virtue of Dao, but "virtue" is universal(ly human). Unselfishness, doing things willfully without expectation of reward/benevolence (benévole = voluteer, en français), and goodwill towards humanity. This virtue is central in the Daoist path as well as in Christianity, Confucianism, and every other ancient wisdom tradition, and writing. 2) I think a lot of people don't realize how much of what they consider "uniquely Taoist" also exists in Confucian philosophy. Combine that with an incomplete view of Daoist philosophy as being entirely and only mystical, and the criticisms, in Chuang Tzu and Lie Tzu, of Confucian "practice (not necessarily theory)" being entirely superficial, and you have a lot of mis-understandings about what's what and what's not what.

I like this even better actually, because it also speaks to how virtue works across existence, the supportive nature of water and Dao, as well as in the mysterious power of virtuous behaviour. Thanks (y') all

Yeah, I guess the all work. I just feel like the title was meant to imply also "The Way of Virtue" steming from the context of the day which inspired so the "100 schools of thought" (Confucianism, Mohism, etc., etc.,). It seems to say "here is the Dao (of the universe), the way of virtue (of humanity), and the way they relate." It's a minor difference from "The Way and It's Virtue" but I think "De" in the title was inferring the mundane level of virtue, even more so than it was to "the mystical character of Dao." Not sure if I would agree or not, but you could argue that it shows virtue to describe Dao, more than showing Dao to describe virtue. Thus, it seems that the title has maybe been over-mysticalized, excluding the obvious "treatment/treatise of behavioural virtue" side of the title, in the other translations of "Dao De Jing."

I think there are some super, as in over and above, powers to be gained, but to chase the same heights in our urban lives as Taoists who live in groups of other Taoists with daily face to face interaction with highly cultivated practitioners in the ideal environments -- it just doesn't seem like the most logical course. Learning what I can from life every day and using moments of challenge to grow - this to me is a sound course of action for the environment I'm living in. Working on virtues and personal progress to learn from the lessons given -- that will have to be my Hua Shan, and though I may not walk in the clouds every day, at least I might be able to make lemon sherbert out of lemons rather than spending my life planting pineapples in the wrong climate. Perhaps some people here are giving it "all or none" and would criticize others for not doing so (not directing that to the OP or any in particular)... but what use do they have for the internet out there exactly? I really have to question the process there.

I could add that my primary practice in Wu Wei is music. There is a point, especially with a crowd's energy involved, when there is what is called "the pocket" - it's something collective that everyone is driving towards and you start to let it take over - you start to follow the pocket instead of anything to do with harmony or scales or riffs or whatever -- it just becomes "more, higher, stronger, lower, calmer, electric, empty" and anything that happens on the instrument is just a matter of following the pocket rather than anything planned out. I'm sure it's a similar experience for energetic healers, martial artists, and probably painters and other artists where the art takes over and you just try to be one with it in order to stay on the ride - it speaks on a deeper level and you stay tuned into the frequency rather than "figuring out" what to do next. My theory is that this is why people love music -- when a musician is "in the pocket" the listener can follow it too and give over the mental effort to their primal physical knowing. There are various aspects of Wu Wei, but this has been the most experiential one for me. edit: ah, I see looking back that this thread is just on visual art.. excusez moi

Our life is the image in the dream that Life is having just like these words describe something else Art is the image of our experiences So art is no less real than life

I was looking at a number of translations of DDJ chapter 39 and seeing that everybody seems to be looking at yi 以 in the same way, though it doesn't seem to match up grammatically to translate it as they do. For example, 天得一以清: Cleary has "heaven became clear by attaining unity" Yin Lutang has "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified" However, the position of yi comes after "one/oneness" and before the final word, be it a noun or verb. I went through Pulleyblank's treatment of yi (pp. 47-50) and it only seems to confirm that these lines have been translated incorrectly. It seems to me that they should appear as "the One was attained due to XYZ" rather than "XYZ was attained due to attainment of the One." This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness." Would it not be more correct to translate the following as: 昔之得一者 In the days when the One was attained 天得一以清 Heaven attained the One by clarity 地得一以寧 Earth attained the One by tranquility 神得一以靈 Spirits attained the One by divine influence 谷得一以盈 The valley attained the One by fullness Anyone wish to clarify this for me? Many thanks. HE

Water, chi, spirit energy.. makes one wonder what water has to say..... the non-existent and the existent. Interesting....

Yes it makes perfect sense to look at water for beginnings, since it is so important to all forms of life, and takes on various forms itself (ice, snow, water, mist, vapour, clouds). right, the starred comment was a side note to show why I chose the word "power." For some reason I reversed the order again between appearances of a quality and the One when re-quoting the text. I'm back to my original conviction that yi was meant to say "because of." To clarify my earlier point about similarity to the Avatamsaka Sutra, here's a quote: "Everywhere [buddha] manifests clouds of mystic displays. Those clouds teaching throughout the world, Harmonizing and calming down all sentient beings. All this appears from the Buddha's palace." I feel like these are all getting at a similar origin, of a quality of wisdom (clarity, tranquility, etc.) preceding and influencing form. On the other hand, there is still the question (in my mind) as to whether the One in DDJ39 is Wuji, Dao, or both/either. After all, things can go back to the state of Wuji to be purified of the illusion of separateness.

I noticed that conversations from today in the TTC and translation sections are not in the "view new content." Maybe they were not connected with the subs were re-organized? Thanks for re-organizing those, btw. Much more feng-shui now

1. I was very much a party person from the first week of high school until a few years after University. Always loved music and dancing, including moshing during the grunge and later 90's metal days. Also would do lsd or mushrooms a couple times a year, and smoked weed a bit too much. Never got into chemicals as I didn't like what it seemed to do to the people I knew who did. The other side of this would be in playing small improvised music shows with/for friends starting around 2000, which was always quite debaucherous but also opened me up to some doors of reality in the ways people are connected. It put me deeper in tune with my senses which I think pushed me more towards learning what mystics said about life. 2. a) because it's fun when you're into it. b. (edit from b-parenthesis, or ) because that's how people socialized 3. I probably would have seen the sense in cultivating regardless if I happened upon the same information that got me into it, but I think the partying also made me realize that there is a lot one can learn about one's self in such situations too. Cultivation to me means also just being effective at whatever you do and being able to thrive in all sorts of situations. A lot can be gained from the collective energy of a party atmosphere, and not just in a vamp way. There can be an exchange almost like dual-cultivation where you feel stronger and more flexible afterwards. Also the social aspect can teach someone the reality of ego, since you can easily spoil your fun by egoic worries, while when you are IN the party and enjoying the time together it's easy to realize that your ego can get in the way. In short, I wouldn't discount the real benefits of it to personal development/cultivation. 2nd edit to add: only used lsd during highschool..

Not necessarily.. If you notice the rising and falling of water and vapour, it's pretty evident that some things go one way while others go another. Assume that at some point they were not polarized, and you've got "beginnings." From there one can see the similarities from micro to macro and we have all sorts of understandings. Not to say that I would have come up with Daoist sciences, but they are well based in things we all observe, especially if surrounded by mountains that look like they're growing into the sky.

If we go by the Huinanzi quote provided above, we might want to add Clarity, Fullness, Tranquility, and *Power to that cosmology as these qualitites seemed to have appeared somewhere between Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水 and, depending on the source, Heaven and Earth, the Cosmos, and Water. This also makes me think of how the Flower Ornament Scripture/Avatamsaka shows these qualities as being manifestations of the Buddha in nature, communicating Dharma through the clouds and such. * (DDJ39 says that spirits essentially became effective by embracing the One)

lol, yes, somehow I missed my own thread on chapter 28, though I was thinking of this chapter to find reference to Wuji.. I couldn't remember which chapter it was.. and failed in my TTB duty to search for it... One could say that chapter 28 very much talks about "returning to the One" which is then affiliated with Wuji, and The Valley, ensuring "De will always be full (like the valley, ch. 39)." So, returning to Wuji ensures the valley will be full (in ch. 28), 為天下谷， Being preferential to the valley under heaven 常德乃足， De will then always be full so "the One" which the valley obtains/embraces to become full in ch. 39, is also Wuji. Thanks for bringing up The Great One established Water too. Being that this book seems to be the source of much of the cosmology in the DDJ, it's rather indispensable in this discussion. Thanks for your help Dawei! Also Chi Dragon and Marblehead! You guys ask (some of) the best questions!!

I believe I'm off chewing on the idea tough like beef jerky

But the innumerable things came from Taiji. Also Heaven and Earth are mainfestations of the dynamism in Taiji. They are essentially the same things but we must return to unity to observe this.

Ha ha! It's true.. that (in the Huinanzi, and a different reading of yi,) clarity, tranquility, divine power, and fullness, would be implied to exist before Heaven, Earth, Spirits, and Valleys. Also growth, and purity and innocence existed before the innumerable things and 大丈夫 da zhangfu. I also wonder if the modern predilection to reading yi as most do, was less automatic in Lao Tzu's day? This also brings up the interesting question of the innumerable things, and aspects of the interactive dynamics between yin and yang which 生 gives/gave rise to them!! 道生一 Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji) 一生二 One gave birth to Two (yin and yang) 二生三 Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism) 三生萬物 Three gave birth to the innumerable things