Harmonious Emptiness

gotta stretch for that not much time yet I approach trepidatiously

However, if Dao gave birth to One, can One be Dao? Or is Wuji also Dao, since Dao is self-established? 道生一 Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji) 一生二 One gave birth to Two (yin and yang) 二生三 Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism) 三生萬物 Three gave birth to the innumerable things It's true that Wuji is not mentioned by name in the Dao De Jing. I think various schools have differing opinions on what is correct on this matter, so we'll just have to go with what works for us and not try to put too many labels on the experiences I guess.

Another point to carry over here: Chi Dragon said: Yes, the Unity is not the One. It was completely isolated in this case. The deductive reasoning must apply here. Edited to add: You must have noticed that the "wu" has multimeaning throughout the TTC, in the similar manner, used by Lao Tze. my comment: This was the sort of "intuitive" impression I had at first as well, though I try to avoid underestimating the depth of meanings in the Dao De Jing. There is a difference between attaining Dao and attaining Wuji, however, attaining/returning to Wuji and returning to Dao are almost the same thing: Dao might be called the harmonious balance on which random chaos takes place (like the chord changes in an improvised jazz song, you can play outside the chords a bit to create tension, but too much and you won't be jamming much longer as it will sound terrible). Wuji is the unity of yin and yang into One (like a jazz "vamp" where the band sits on the root chord for an indeterminate time until starting the chord sequence again, though the vamp might actually be more than 1 chord, the parallel still applies). Returning to Wuji puts one in a position to harmoniously enter the changes of Dao again. So saying "the One" could be interpreted as either/or/both/and Dao/Wuji for practicable purposes, it would seem.

I'll be posting a response to this in the TTC forum, chapter 39

A great documentary about natural farming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69iVd8WjXNQ can't wait until this goes viral!

Well, I'll bring my own points over here at least then: HE: I agree with (ChiDragon) that One = Dao here MH: we should be careful here though. Remember, Tao gave birth to One. Edit to add: Yes, I have also, in the past, equated the two as equal. But I think this might be an error. HE: Good point, MH! Wuji is most likely "the One" that Dao gave birth to (ch. 42), so we might say this chapter is talking about when everything was non-dualized as in Wuji; however, we can see that "back in the days" which is being spoken of in chapter 39 is also a time after Wuji had already become Taiji, and the myriad things had appeared from Taiji. Seems that the suggestion is that all had maintained (得 obtained) a state of Wuji and thus further developed in a way which Zen Buddhists (influenced by their Taoist roots, imo) have so well explained as "realizing one's nature." To quote Albert Low, "Everything is pressing out toward being itself to the fullest. Everything seeks to express itself." So the self-realization and self-manifestation of Heaven is to become clear; the self-realization and self-manifestation of Earth is to be tranquil; the self-realization and self-manifestation of the valley is to be full; the self-realization and self-manifestation spirits is to be effective; the self-realization and self-manifestation of the myraid things is be thriving; the self-realization and self-manifestation of ruler is to be pure and innocence (chaste) Thus, by holding to the state of Wuji, this self-realization is manifest. note: the above is not meant as a translation MH: ... I prefer "self-actualization" HE: [maybe].. to pick up there: "the true expresssion of" could also be a good way to help illustrate "self-realization and self-manifestation" which is essentially related to "zi-ran," imo.

ha, yes I think that would save me some space at least! Though the precision of it might be less complete.. not sure personally...

link to the translation discussion which I think has many interesting points to consider.. didn't want to re-post them here, though maybe that would be appropriate... edit: whoops, forgot the link: http://thetaobums.com/topic/30884-yi-in-ddj39/

sounds like you're talking about "yuan-qi" or "pre-birth energy." No doubt this is intertwined with Te, and Wuji, imo..

Good point, MH! Wuji is most likely "the One" that Dao gave birth to (ch. 42), so we might say this chapter is talking about when everything was non-dualized as in Wuji; however, we can see that "back in the days" which is being spoken of in chapter 39 is also a time after Wuji had already become Taiji, and the myriad things had appeared from Taiji. Seems that the suggestion is that all had maintained (得 obtained) a state of Wuji and thus further developed in a way which Zen Buddhists (influenced by their Taoist roots, imo) have so well explained as "realizing one's nature." To quote Albert Low, "Everything is pressing out toward being itself to the fullest. Everything seeks to express itself." So the self-realization and self-manifestation of Heaven is to become clear; the self-realization and self-manifestation of Earth is to be tranquil; the self-realization and self-manifestation of the valley is to be full; the self-realization and self-manifestation spirits is to be effective; the self-realization and self-manifestation of the myraid things is be thriving; the self-realization and self-manifestation of ruler is to be pure and innocence (chaste) Thus, by holding to the state of Wuji, this self-realization is manifest. edit to add: the above is not meant as a translation

Thanks Marblehead. After some discussion in translation section, I think the other translators were right to translate it as they did, though I still think there may have been a clever usage of yi here to show the reverse process as applicable in practical terms. After all, many read the DDJ like a painting which can teach both by instruction and inspiration.. in this case maybe there is this element to give such a reflexion? Either way, sounds true to me

thanks CD (I had already erased the earlier thanks for contribution via "like" since I saw you posted a full comment.. so I'll add this note to avoid confusion ) I see it works as sort of a "therefore" which is probably the most common meaning of yi in the Dao De Jing. Thanks for the speedy reply! I agree that "the One" is synonymous with Dao here, too.

Thanks for responding thetaoiseasy. That explains why most translate it this way at least, if it just seems to fit the flow. There are a couple of examples in Pulleyblank's treatment (145, 146) which show how it can be used to mean "and thereby/in order to" but it seemed a much rarer usage and less reflective of these sentences than those giving the meaning "because of." I guess maybe I should just take my experience as a personal one.. a bit more reflection on the lines can show a reversal of the process, while the literal meaning is as it appears. Any more points of view are welcome

I see that Goowday has come to a similar conclusion with this chapter, but it seems that the beginning lines are actually showing HOW these things attained oneness. All the translators seemed to just follow each other in translating yi 以 as "and," or "and thus" (ex. Heaven attained oneness and clarity) however, "and" is almost never given a separate word - the two things are just placed next to each other to show they are both there, or zhi is put between them to show that one is an adjective. Also, to translate as Lin Yutang has: "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified, Through possession of the One, The Earth was stabilized" yi would have to appear at the beginning of the sentence rather than just preceding the final word of the sentences. With all this in mind, it really seems like yi 以 could only mean "because of X... because of Y...", and so this chapter is showing HOW oneness is/was attained. my translation: 昔之得一者 In the days when the One was attained 天得一以清 Heaven attained the One by clarity 地得一以寧 Earth attained the One by contentment (寧 serenity of “heart at home with food on table”) 神得一以靈 Spirits attained the One by divine influence 谷得一以盈 The valley attained the One by fullness As usual, we may learn from natures example. edit: more discussion in translation section.. seems that it's a matter of habitual reading of yi that gives it the appearance that other translators have worked with.

Is your Buddhism just an ego trip? Is loving others as we love ourselves not the manifest action of seeing through the illusion of self? First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, and then there is a mountain. After sages go into the mountain and see past the self, they return to the crowd with love for all, love for themselves, for their body, even for their robe which are all as much a part of the all as the others. Must we continue to stare down Samsara rather than going out and living love, free from the selfish ego-trip of self-liberation? After all, there is no ego, so why make liberating it the central focus of your time and effort, instead of living as though it's already gone? (edited to take the 'k' out of 'robek')

..... poetically speaking .. .

Btw, this is not meant to say anything about Anatole's vast knowledge and experience of Dao and Daoism, though I might say rhetorical style resulted in a limited picture of what was being said,

The Chapters which seem to be the most revelatory of the meanings of wu-wei I think are Chatpers 3 and 37. One needs to take the context of the chapter into account to understand what is meant by the term. In both chapters, the actions to be avoided are those which cause people to amass desire for name and renown, the idea (imo) being that by abstaining from such activity, society will function harmoniously rather than in jealousy and competition (as today's media is so good at agitating). Here is my translation of Chapter Thirty, which I think you will see speaks more to the causes you're inquiring of, since it actually deals with how a man of Dao should counsel a leader when required. I think you'll see that wu-wei takes a similar shape as in Chapters 3 and 37, though the term "wu wei" does not appear. 30 以道佐人主者， Apply Dao when assisting leaders of men 不以兵強天下。 Not by means of weapons is there power under heaven 其事好還。 Such business will be responded to in kind 師之所處荊棘生焉。 Where troops gather, thorns and brambles appear 軍之後必有凶年。 Following war, there is sure to be famine and misfortune 善有果而已， Skilfully achieve results and then stop 不敢以取強。 Do not dare to act merely for the acquisition of power 果而勿矜。 Achieve results but do not seek for recognition 果而勿伐。 Achieve results but never gloat or deride 果而勿驕。 Achieve results but never become arrogant or conceited 果而不得已。 Achieves results but do not presume your work is complete 果而勿強。 Achieve results but never indulge in power 物壯則老， Things thrive in their prime and then become aged 是謂不道， It is correctly said that this does not reflect the Dao 不道早已。 Not reflecting the Dao, the end will be premature

Good question and responses. This is a question I find myself pursuant of as well, perhaps because it's one of those with no definitive answers. If we were to ask Confucius I think we would be somewhat disappointed were we to believe the narrative of his life via Sima Qian. According to this story, Confucius at one time ordered a group of actors and dancers to be executed because he thought the performance (which they were ordered to perform) was too lude for the reception of honourable guests. He was also extremely elitist and had almost no respect for "common people." So where should our line of tolerance be? Should we, like Confucius, be completely intolerant of people who act too "common?" What does "common" mean exactly? Lacking manners and and discriminating taste? Maybe. Though there is a common-ness of elitism as well in that elitists seem to indiscriminately give in to their blind partiality to superiority. I guess maybe the line of tolerance has a lot to do with trying to "lead from behind" when you know someone is pushing things in the wrong direction. I know I can be fairly intolerant too, especially to obliviousness of one's negative effect on their surroundings, feeling like it's just the tip of the iceberg as to how much they would sacrifice of others for their own advantage. Anyhow, I'm interested in the answers.. not sure if those thoughts contributed to the conversation or not....

Which texts do you work with?

Not all of them.. and many of the ones that do will use terms that have been defined in other text, or will not seem too strange following various meditative experiences. Keep in mind that much of that sort of explanation is simply describing the natural processes that occur when keeping the basics together during meditation. These basics are explained quite clearly in many many texts, which if followed will lead one past various sign posts.. if the basics are not followed the car breaks down and you only get so far, but you can learn how to at least build this vehicle by seeing the commonalities that these texts begin with. A good teacher is certainly a major benefit and at certain levels entirely necessary, but if you haven't left for the mountains yet, these writings are still immensely beneficial to help you get started. All the best in your practice....

This is a good start:

two of the major benefits of sitting full-lotus is that the soles of the feet are pointing upwards, and the area from your navel to mid inner-thighs gets a good stretching which helps circulation around dantien. Another way to achieve these is simply using a high cushion and sitting in half-lotus with the weight distributed to your knees and butt. Using the zen circle mudra in front of the dantien helps to keep the energy focus there during emptiness meditation. If you're building qi for internal power, emptiness meditation would help with absorption, and to keep balance by transformation of jing chi and shen. If your aiming for internal power, a qualified teacher is even more recommended. I don't know anything really about Mopai, other than what I have heard frequently around here that it is comparatively more prone to going very wrong when done incorrectly.. More Pie Guy seems to have been following that school independently for a while though and might have some resources or tips on acquiring them

Yeah, cause those authors weren't good teachers right? ppshhh..

I guess close to what XieJia said, but if the act of writing is that natural and energizing then it is like a plug into the deeper source within that draws from without.. When you are filled with that energy you can share it, so this is an important part of your selflessness as it gives something to give. It may have reflected a world full of desires and vices, but as you see the world differently, the shadows of this perspective will be cast on that world, eventually revealing themselves more clearly to you.