Harmonious Emptiness

and (possibly) closed to the world.... to again quote the Dao De Jing, "[the virtue of water] dwells in (the lowly) places that all disdain - Wherein it comes near to the Tao. (Chapter 8, Lin Yutan trans.)" not that shamatha is, or should, not be a part of Buddhist practice

Mantak Chia is often too much even for seasoned practitioners. Start with Daniel Reid's book "Health, Sex, and Longevity." It has all your looking to know about.

Well, can you not, rather than going in to see there is no "I," go out to see there is only "all?" See, this is good. This is what I'm talking about.. But it seems as though (many) people forfeit this side of it and spend all their time on this ego, which again, doesn't even exist.

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Oneness, omnicience, emptiness.. To quote Chapter One of the Dao De Jing 同謂之玄。 The competing names create more obscuration 玄之又玄， Mysteries become further mysterious 眾妙之門 And this becomes a gate between people and the beautiful subtleties of life. (if you wish to contend my translation, please see post #237 here)

For chapter 27, the chapter ends talking about how the non-virtuous are valued as teachers by those who strive for perfection, and if a person does not care for these "teachers and assets" then "to consider this man wise would be a great illusion." Followed by 是 謂 要 妙 。 It is correct to say that this is essential to the secret of life What is "the secret of life?" Well, chapter 27 is talking about "聖 人 常 善 sages of unrelenting virtue" so virtue and wisdom, as modeled on the Dao (De is virtue modeled on Dao, sort of the "son" of Dao, perhaps "the image of the First Divine Lord" in Chapter 4 which is described as "profound depth!") and illustrated in this chapter, would (seem to) be their "secret of life." [sorry for the formatting here, I'm working on writing something more readable ]

Without getting unnecessarily technical, why do we need wait until Buddhahood to experience the joy of oneness? Why can't oneness be the path instead? The one's I described.

Ha ha, yes it's sort of both. An adjective for something else which is not stated and so using the adjective for the noun? I think Chapter 27 would have to be discussed more at length for me to make much sense of how I understand the character in this place.

I accept what it is Hearing the bird say: "squack, squack... The wind is coming."

眇Miniscule would be the effective meaning here "without desire they see the miniscule/subtle" Also 眇眇miaomiao means "distant or remote" as well as "sublime." suo Jiao 所噭 (that which shout) in this context would suggest "that which is obvious" and so was made altered to "徼 (frontier/border) surface/superficial." Again, I think the "ornaments on the tree" which can stand alone with their own meaning are beautiful and offer much to be contemplated.

"Deep Mystery becomes deeper, darker, and more mysterious" was my translation. "repeating, mystery" was just added in brackets to show the words that are being translated for English. 眾 also means many and numerous. 妙之門 means "gate of Miao," "subtle gate", because zhi modifies it's following character with its preceding character. We could assume that zhong/numerous/crowd is modifying Miao to mean "crowd of subtlety" and thus "gate" is modified by "all subtleties/inner beauties" to make "gate of all inner beauties," or, we can see that "Miao gate" becomes one thing which is modified by "crowd/numerous," to become "numerous - doors to inner beauty." These both work fine, but at the same time, we have look at how this comes about and appears in the lines of the Chapter: "Dao that can be spoken of not true Dao Title that can be designated not true title Without name... With name... Without desire see Miào, (inner!) beauty With desire see surface 兩者同出異名同謂 兩All of 者these 出appear 同together when 異different 名names are 同simultatneously 謂spoken (see chapter 2 "by knowing beautiful, knowing ugliness; by knowing good, knowing not-good.") 玄之又玄 Deep Mystery becomes deeper, darker, and more mysterious (又repeating 玄mystery) " zhòng miào zhī mèn 眾妙之門 (the gate of all inner beauties) Looking at these lines, what is the gate? Is it a gate that creates access to the inner beauties? or the gate which is standing between us and inner beauties? Is it a gate that exists before "兩All of 者these 出appear 同together when 異different 名names are 同simultatneously 謂spoken" or does it appear after the different names are simultaneously spoken? Is it only after the names are simultaneously spoken that we find ourselves on one side or the other side of the gate? Well, while were thinking about that we read the next line which begins Chapter Two: "When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created." There is a seamless thread woven through Chapter One into Chapter Two, like one Christmas tree with a number of self-sufficient ornaments which can be appreciated on their own even apart from the tree. It's important also not to "miss the forest for the trees" or in this case, not to "miss the tree for the ornaments."

That was quick!

Quiet tonight, eh? Not much to talk about when nobody's obstinately and intolerantly devoted to their opinions___.

Of course, what I'm referring to is all the time spent talking about this level and that level and free me from this and that, all the while, if successful, it leads to a life where you are free of attachment to self and willingly love others as one's self, which is the liberation -- not being so attached to this needy self. Why do people not talk more about "loving others as one's self," which is something worth working towards, rather than this ego trip (and I mean that as mostly as a pun) of being at this level of liberation and that level of liberation. What is the point of all of that if it only for the self - which doesn't exist.?

yeah, I can't even find chapter 28 with the search function. It's sort of a big swamp right now, not going to be too inviting for anybody that wants to go for a swim....

For the similarities between Miao (inner beauty), Xuan (deep mystery), and Dè, see the following from Chapter 28: - my translations Chapter 28 知其雄， Know the male 守其雌， Conserve the female (Miao means mysterious subtle beauty, especially feminine(妙)subtlety and beauty) 為天下谿 Being preferential towards the great canyon under the heavens 為天下谿， Being preferential towards the great canyon under the heavens (the position of Wei at the beginning without another verb gives it this meaning rather than "be/make/do") 常德不離， Thus De remains, never fleeing like a small bird 復歸於嬰兒。 "Returning to infancy" (which suggests a baby boy needing his mother.. more on this later.. but the feminine imagery is still there, subtly, more subtly than with Miao) 知其白 Know the bright 守其黑， Conserve the dark (dark; mystery; absence of desires; Miao; Xuan. Xuan is used poetically as both dark and mystery at different times.) 為天下式。 Being preferential to the pattern under the heavens 為天下式， Being preferential to the pattern under the heavens (usually translated approx.“be an example to the world”, but see earlier comment about position of Wei) 常德不忒， De will endure without fail 復歸於無極 Returning to the embrace of the Wu Ji, the great emptiness (the allusions to embrace were set earlier, and so I have added it here as well, given the feminine allusions and imagery within which all of these phrases are saturated)

I think that people miss the cadence that Lao Tzu creates here as in many other chapters. The comparisons lead up to a single point. Dao that can be spoken of not true Dao Title that can be designated not true title Without name... With name... Without desire see Miào, (inner!) beauty With desire see surface 兩者同出異名同謂 兩All of 者these 出appear 同together when 異different 名names are 同simultatneously 謂spoken (see chapter 2 "by knowing beautiful, knowing ugliness; by knowing good, knowing not-good.") 玄之又玄 Deep Mystery becomes deeper, darker, and more mysterious (又repeating 玄mystery) zhòng miào zhī mèn 眾妙之門 All doors to 妙miào inner beauty.

According to the Mirriam Webster dictionary: "Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" Thus, once recognizing bigotry, there is rarely much point to argue with it with any hope of successfully reasoning it out of the mind it occupies. Bigotry could care less what logic you bring to it, and will always find a reason to ignore revelations as to why its prejudiced opinion does not make sense. If there is any point to this argument it is to keep the facts straight so that passive observers are not mislead by incorrect convictions. So, don't get too personally invested in eliminating the bigoted opinions, but I do appreciate everyone's efforts here to maintain the presence of reality in what appears in these threads. And it's always fun to try and solve puzzles so.. Please continue...

yes, the YI character here means "thereby." It's difficult to put all the senses given by the combination of words when translating this, however, it comes out close to "so long as there is no desire/whenever there is no desire, they observe/(know/experience) mysterious beauty. Personally, I think Miao and De (ch. 28) are the same. I'm writing some commentary on Chapter 28 which will explain this further if it isn't yet perceived easily enough.

Much like this response seems to be moving forward, though is actually drawing out the opponents folly to be seized upon ..

Yes, however, Yi 以 pretty much makes all of this apparent in the phrase.

Can you show me the character for cang? Though we may differ on translation of the phrases, I think we agree on this point (in bold) as you'll see. Here is my translation (and understanding of the meaning) of the rest of the chapter. It's quite a bit different than others, but I think the grammar flows in the following direction: 07 故常無欲, gù cháng wú yù , The sages of the past always maintained absence of desire 08 以觀其妙。 yĭ guān qí miào, And so were able to observe 妙The Subtle Underlying Beauty (of life) 09 常有欲, cháng yŏu yù, “always, existing, desire” Most people try to grasp it in the desire to possess it 10 以觀其徼。 yĭ guān qí jiăo. Thereby only observing the surface (and names) 11 此兩者同出, cĭ liăng zhě tóng chū , (In learning of the Dao today,) it is a mixture of these two (ways of knowing which speak to us and have) thus emerged (as the teachings of Dao) 12 而異名, ér yì míng Nevertheless, the names and concepts are so strange and esoteric (that they are inaccessible) 13 同謂之玄。 tóng wèi zhī xuán. The competing names create more obscuration 14 玄之又玄， xuán zhī yòu xuán Mysteries become further mysterious 15 眾妙之門。 zhòng miào zhī mèn And this becomes a gate between people and the beautiful subtleties of life. So, going back to my earlier point, desireless and open observation is one way of knowing, while names and terminologies are the other. Both play a part in learning the Dao, but finite terminologies and paths are potentially misleading.

Lienshan, I'm not sure if your post was meant for me. My translation of those lines was: 無名天地之始 wú míng tiān dì zhī shĭ, “without, name, Heaven, Earth, beginning” One cannot conceptualize where Heaven and Earth came from (as they did not come from a concept) 有名萬物之母。 yŏu míng wàn wù zhī mŭ. Exist, name, innumerable, things, .., mother There can, however, be a concept of where the 萬myriad children of Heaven and Earth came from (, they came from the concept(s) of Heaven and Earth)

Something slow with a holistic sequence including a warm up and closing. I started with this sequence promoted by the National Qigong Association, and developed by Michael Winn. It has similarities to 8 section brocade, and movements that are common to different Tai Chi foundational qigong sets but organized for cleansing and replenishing rather than directed towards martial power and strength. It's sure to get the chi flowing through you and not lead to empty calisthenics, which will give you a good base for when you try other styles and movements.

After writing the below, I now realize that you're referring to my translation of "fei chang Dao" and not of "Dao ke dao." However: What I was saying is that - it's not that "the path cannot be spoken of" as many interpret the lines and then wonder why this line is followed by 81 chapters. That was my main point. Then to interpret "Dao can be spoken not always the path" I wrote the above paragraph. it is not a word for word translation. That said, "Dao ke dao fei chang dao" would have this same meaning as "Path that can be followed" or "Path that can be taught," or "path that can be a path" or "The Path that should be The Path is not a constant road." I did look through Pulleyblank's "..Classical Chinese grammar", pp 42-44 before writing post #220 btw. Nonetheless, I think there may be enough poetic flexibility when looking at those 6 words to give it the feel of a noun while using it as a verb, though that is up to the perception of the reader and it would still lead to the same overall meaning as when it's a verb. That's sort of the beauty in the prose and poetry found throughout the text, though, again, the meaning is not changed by it's presence there, real or perceived.