Harmonious Emptiness

Yes, his translation would be interesting, especially with these commentaries included. From what I could see comparing Wilhelm and Cleary translations with some of the original, there was not such a drastic difference between the two, aside from Cleary's extensive footnotes and the fact that Cleary's use of vocabulary seems to speak a bit clearer for modern English. A bit off topic, but I would love to see more of the Liu I Ming writings translated, such as his commentary on the Dao De Jing. Just my two cents, fwiw. thanks again

Well, there's winning for not loosing, and then there's winning for bringing the truth to light in spite of resistance.

lol, yeah "常ordinarily 言said 道in this way" Seems you don't want to admit that you can't find another sentence where Dao means "say," so you gave me a sentence with "言say" and Dao in it instead. This is too much, but funny at the same time.

and in a stroke of great timing, Chapter 18 from the Hua Hu Ching came up in another topic (merci belle Deci!) as I said earlier: Hilarious that I had never read the following until just now: Come on now, am I still not building a good enough argument for this case?

Sorry, used for who's explanation? Classic doesn't always mean correct, of course. I can see that most interpretations went this way as few people, East or West, were really sure what to make of the literal words Dao ke Dao. However, Cleary and Red Pine do add some clout to putting it differently.

Yeah, I think you're right. Seems if there's much hope for this thread beyond Chapter 16, it will be finding the parallels between Xing and De

I've never seen Tao being used to say spoken, yet almost every chapter has a part that says "this is called..." and they never say "this is Dao-ed such and such." Are there other examples that use "Dao" to mean "spoken" on which you base this understanding?

Okay, but this sort of determines it's use and meaning as a verb, it seems.

Well what's the point of this discussion then? I looked through the Ch. 1 discussion and didn't see anything related to this.

What exactly do you mean by non-scholastic? Why would it be an uneducated remark? Note the following similar translations (for the record, I just checked them now, rather than before coming up with a word for word "trail that can be trailed/path that can be followed") Cleary A way can be a guide, but not a fixed path Hansen To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding Lindauer A tao that one can tao Is not the entire tao Muller The Tao that can be followed is not the eternal Tao. Red Pine The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way I think I'm in good company there. "Cleary received a PhD in East Asian Languages and Civilizations from Harvard University as well as a JD from the University of California, Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law,[4] but has had minimal involvement with the academic world, claiming that "there is too much oppression in a university setting,[1]" and that he wants "to stay independent and reach those who who want to learn directly through [his] books.[1]" He reserves some praise for his alma mater, though; "a good thing about Harvard was language training was done by native teachers. You did not find that everywhere.[1]" -Wikipedia

Hey, first of all, the rudeness is unnecessary. second, the trail that is followed, ie., the finite understanding of nature does not stand the test of time. To understand Dao, one must be free of conceptual thinking and know in the heart. If they try to create a finite trail, it will not lead to Dao, but to dead ends. Thus, the trail that is marked out and followed is not the enduring path. The true path is without such linear thinking and behaviours. As soon as you create a trail and follow it expecting to find Dao, you miss the truth surrounding you and only see the end of that trail. Give up winning Chi Dragon. We're supposed to be here to learn. To try to win is to lose on this path of learning.

I think balance is best. Too much sitting can make someone stiff and inflexible. We need a good degree of freedom, like the Taoist monkey exercise for the kidney/water element, to balance and adapt while not loosing that stillness within, like the water trigram.

I'm thinking maybe Tao ke tao is meaning something like the "the path that can be followed" as in "the trail that can be trailed is not the lasting trail."

I find this to be a big one. It's ironic how we think "I can't forgive that person, I deserve better than to just let them get away with it. The least I can do is project negative energy at them rather than let it bounce around inside." Of course by carrying this around we only increase our ego-shell and can't connect to the infinite, so we don't even do ourselves any favours by not letting those things go. At the same time, I wouldn't discount that some people need to learn how to expect respect. There is a balance though, between expecting respect, and not taking it personally. I think this relates to being impeccable. And all of this relates to cultivating the strength and autonomy needed to walk one's path.

If it wasn't for the inclination towards prideful show-offyness, Confucius probably would have just kept eating his soup... (edit: meaning to say, that that his lessons would have been unnecessary) The inclination is so strong that people actually managed to use his teachings as one more resource to further their personal desires for fame and status. This happens with most teachings intended to cultivate virtues. They end up just further cultivating ego once somebody figures out how do so. This is why Lao Tzu said "Don't praise Sageliness, and the people won't trade simple sincerity for its lofty status."

By the way, there is mention of sitting practice at the end of chapter 9. Though I can agree that ultimately the discipline of this liberation is total, and not limited to a particular daily event.

Thanks for the clarification tccii. My translation process is still very very slow. Any idea when those prefaces were written or by whom? thanks

Compare this to the last 2 paragraphs of Doctrine of the Mean, written by Confucius grandson, Mencius' teacher: It is said in the Book of Poetry, "In silence is the offering presented, and the spirit approached to; there is not the slightest contention." Therefore the superior man does not use rewards, and the people are stimulated to virtue. He does not show anger, and the people are awed more than by hatchets and battle-axes. It is said in the Book of Poetry, "What needs no display is virtue. All the princes imitate it." Therefore, the superior man being sincere and reverential, the whole world is conducted to a state of happy tranquility. It is said in the Book of Poetry, "I regard with pleasure your brilliant virtue, making no great display of itself in sounds and appearances." The Master said, "Among the appliances to transform the people, sound and appearances are but trivial influences. It is said in another ode, 'His Virtue is light as a hair.' Still, a hair will admit of comparison as to its size. 'The doings of the supreme Heaven have neither sound nor smell. 'That is perfect virtue."

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions here Dawei. I really need to get into the images in chapter 51, as it is also all about De, with the line about Ming. Since we're talking about the influence of the Dao De Jing on Alchemical treatments of Xing and Ming, note the similarities between this, the only other appearance of Ming in the Dao De Jing, and the opening lines of Secret of the Golden Flower: from Chapter 51: 夫莫之命而常自然 to the opening lines to Secret of the Golden Flower: 自然曰道。道無名相。一性而已。一元神而已 The stanza in the DDJ is often understood rather differently than that from the SGF. 自然 in the SGF is understood to mean "Naturalness" as it basically says "Self/True or True-Self." The same characters in DDJ are all but overlooked it seems, as 90% of scholarly understandings don't seem to take much more than official guesswork for authority. There is no 123 or 4 next to characters to determine exactly which word they referred to, so one person see's one things, while initiates might still see something further. This is part of the scriptures of every mystical tradition, from Sufism, to Christianity, to Kabbalah, and of course alchemical Taoism. 道之尊, 德之貴 夫莫之命而常自然 This is usually understood along the lines of "Yet the way is revered and virtue honored 莫not because this is 命decreed by any authority but because it is natural for them to be treated so." (translated by D.C. Lau) This does seem to make obvious literal sense, but comparing the way Ming is described in Chapter 16, basically "returning to the foundation called Peaceful Harmony," and seeing the image of sunset 莫 here makes me wonder if there was a similar message to be found here. The similarities of De in the this chapter to both xing and ming are very interesting.

See my note about "The Great Learning" in the "Confucian texts" thread. The original is available by google searches. I would say that egoless action, as described in DDJ Ch.7 is to "accomplish without meddling" and this is quite prevalent in The Analects.

yeah, lets just not call it either a noun nor verb and say it's fairly undefined.

One of the great things about the words in the Dao De Jing is that the the sentences leading up to them often describe them before saying "this is called --." A "Way" can be a route, a method, a manner in which something is done, a routine, and the list goes on. It is a fairly undefined noun, which requires a context to give it it's intended flavour, much like the word "Dao."

r u sure? I don't see it there. In which version? Based on the descriptions of Xing from your links, I can definitely see how he makes that parallel. Not so sure. After reading both links, my sense of the two has maybe stretched a bit, but not really strayed from my previous perceptions of Ming as described in Chapter 16. They were certainly and especially helpful in seeing the differences between Xing and Ming, however. It would be interesting to look at the similaries in descriptions of De in the Dao De Jing, and Xing in the alchemical texts, though I'm not sure how far we'll get with the pressures to conform and reduce them to a dry and materialistic, commodified, literalistic, and limited "word." The purpose here is finding the various things they could mean, and what they seem to have meant to later Alchemists, rather than finding and agreeing on any single English word to replace them. I think for terms like this to be effectively translated, they are better done so with 5 or more words, rather than one, anyway.

Perhaps consider this excerpt from the late Zen master Empty Cloud's writings, and as Shen Lung recommended, keep mindful of the present moment. You can even meditate now while reading this by being mindful of the present moment. From Chan Teachinigs of Master Hsu Yun: Beyond meditation practice, there is attitude. A beginner must learn to cultivate what is called, "the poise of a dying man". What is this poise? It is the poise of knowing what is important and what is not, and of being accepting and forgiving. Anyone who has ever been at the bedside of a dying man will understand this poise. What would the dying man do if someone were to insult him? Nothing. What would the dying man do if someone were to strike him? Nothing. As he lay there, would he scheme to become famous or wealthy? No. If someone who had once offended him were to ask him for his forgiveness would he not give it? Of course he would. A dying man knows the pointlessness of enmity. Hatred is always such a wretched feeling. Who wishes to die feeling hatred in his heart? No one. The dying seek love and peace. There was a time when that dying man indulged himself with feelings of pride, greed, lust and anger, but now such feelings are gone. There was a time when he indulged his bad habits, but now he is free of them. He carries nothing. He has laid his burdens down. He is at peace. Dear friends, when we have breathed our last, this physical body of ours will become a corpse. If we strive now to regard this physical body as a corpse, that peace will come to us sooner. If we regarded each day of our life as if it were our last day, we wouldn't waste one precious minute in frivolous pursuits or in grudging, injurious anger. We wouldn't neglect to show love and gratitude to those who had been kind to us. We wouldn't withhold our forgiveness for any offense, small or great. And if we had erred, wouldn't we ask for forgiveness, even with our dying breath? Well then, if this is the great difficulty for a beginner, what obstacle does an intermediate practitioner face? Results! After he cultivates the discipline of the Buddha Dharma, he must continue to tend his garden as he awaits the ripening of the Holy Fruit! However, his waiting must be passive waiting. He cannot expect or schedule the harvest season. In farming, it is possible to estimate how long beans will take to mature or apples to ripen. But Enlightenment will come when it will come. When it comes, the meditator will suddenly experience his True Nature. He will also understand that his ego truly is a creature of fiction, a harmful illusion. Now, with confusion eliminated, he will become imperturbable. He will develop a singleness of mind, a oneness that will shine in purity and be absolute in tranquility. Naturally, when he reaches this stage, he must act to preserve this Diamond Eye of Wisdom. He must be vigilant in not allowing his ego to reassert itself since to do so would be a foolish attempt to graft a second useless head onto his neck. Whenever we reach the egoless state of perfect awareness, we find it impossible to describe. The situation's rather like an observer who watches a fellow drink a glass of water. Was the water warm or cool? The observer can't tell but the fellow who's done the drinking does know. If the observer disagrees, can they argue about it? No. Can we debate enlightenment with the unenlightened? No. Such discussions would be futile. Chan Master Lin Ji used to say, "Fence with fencing masters. Discuss poetry with poets." A person who has reached the egoless state can communicate this experience only to someone else who has reached it. But after Enlightenment, then what? After Enlightenment, we experience the Great Bodhisattva adventure. In our meditations we enter Guan Yin's realm. This is the most wonderful world of all.

Hey, Welcome Chris! I hope you find some of the info that your looking for here. You might want to check out these links, which are about a Taoist sect(?) recommended by a fellow Kentukyian here screennamed Zerostao: http://thetaobums.com/topic/24476-xiao-yao-pai/ http://www.studytaoism.com/