Harmonious Emptiness

Note this discussion. The Dao is a leveling force. You are being leveled as you need to be put in your place. Coming about here like you are in any position to call someone on their actions. Look at your actions and how you speak to people? How do you fashion yourself worthy to judge anybody here? You have proven yourself to have the maturity of a piglet. Perhaps you ought not play your little "I'm smarter and cleverer" game until you learn how to communicate with human beings on an equal level rather than just as a disruptive little pig chasing after his favourite dish of shit and acting like he's doing someone a service. As the mods have failed to call you on your consistent racism and trolling, I am calling you out for what you are and have proven yourself to be over and over again. If you wish to continue posting on this forum, you'd probably be best to start a new user name.. though judging by the lack of control you have over yourself, your communication strategy will likely result in that account being deleted soon as well. Maybe next time you'll find a better way to judge yourself against others than the accident at birth which ended up with you being born to a random pair of strangers....

This is more or less what I meant by ""Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling." By grasping at virtue, trying to explain it so much that it becomes mysterious, it cannot be obtained, and this reaction (not being able to obtain it) is a leveling action of Dao. This can also be explained that wanting to possess a reputation of virtue, some might try to make it seem great and mystical, which results in them not possessing it. I think this is more of the underlying practicality of it.

You don't think there might have been sort of a pun\double meaning then as I was getting at before? Yeah, I don't really see the connection between these characters. But would be happy to hear how you do...??

Ha ha.. just realized I missed that this is not the same character as "barbarian." Not that it changes too much though... barbarian seems to be used mostly to mean "level(ling)" while this is just "not" rather than "destroyed" or something...

So what about the Chinese people who examined the the mysterious words of the Dao De Jing? Anyone that comments on it or tries to help others learn its wisdom is exploiting a book of wisdom? No, sorry. And you being Chinese while the authors being Chinese does not make it any more "your" book than anyone elses. So everyone today that uses electricity is exploiting the people who invented electricity? Or all cell phone users are exploiting Alexander Graham Bell if their not Canadian? . Well, I guess you better stop benefiting off the efforts of these people since they didn't come from your country. So it's individualistic to try and clarify exactly what was written in a text that very few people here or anywhere else can even begin to read, including it's country and language of origin? And to do so for free on a public forum, anonymously! Actually it's really not that impressive whatsoever. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. And it's not where your ancestors came from, it's who you are that matters. That you apparently studied a few pages of wisdom traditions of China and don't recognize this is what is unfortunate. I would just as soon be glad to learn I am wrong and find out what is right, as find out that I am on the right track and could continue reading with my current understanding. If there is any congratulation here, is that we are finding things which may have been overlooked in available translations in English, and even in modern Chinese which uses about 1\6 of the words used through the Classical eras, and most of the modern terms are altered to the point that some would just as easily read an English translation of the same text. If we manage to find even a few missed meanings in this text (the most translated of any book in the world) this would be of great value to more than just ourselves. So if you don't mind us continuing without you buzzing around the topics like a shit seeking housefly, we have more important questions to look into than how to get you off the page. Thanks!!!

Nice finds! Its parallels like these which seem to be the best way to measure accuracy, short of fixing that time machine I made in high-school shop class.... I'm quite convinced that there are some metaphorical puns\double entendres here at the very least, but: I guess from the common line of translation it might be something like "Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling." This seems to make sense on a surface level, but still, I think the poetic nature of it all is resting in these characters resting between chapters 13 and 15. As to: "That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)" I think Legge might have gotten this wrong. Seems by the context that 昏 was to mean "dusk" as in "in between." Note that 玄德 is somewhat almost defined in chapter 10, a chapter which I think lines up well with the above sentences. There is an interesting note in the intro to the 1912 book on reading Classical Chinese, that literacy was not so abundant in those time, so fewer words were used for more descriptions with vagueness resulting. Though when considering the genius of many writers at this time, I think they would easily employ these written words with multiple possible poetic connotations and additional meanings, especially considering the import of such a symbolic book at the time as the I Ching. For some reason though, this idea seems to so ill-received by some that it's like I have to defend it every time it comes up. I'm lost as to why, but I know better than to rely merely on the projected confidence of so called "experts" with or without credential.

Thanks for the info there again, Chi and Dawei. All the same, I think that the poetic possibilities in the words and paragraphs would depend largely on the symbolism of characters above and beyond their obvious meanings in the sentence. For example, chapter 14 has a subtle indication about both the actions of the Dao and the actions of the Sage in a way that is hinted at in its surrounding chapters, and perhaps as well in the way that the characters have a bit of "double entendre" in this chapter. As mentioned, this double entendre is made more necessary to see by the use of certain words or phrases which otherwise seem "out of place" without seeing this double entendre. Some would prefer to say "no, those words don't belong there \ they were put there by mistake" but is this is a laughable attitude to have imo.

This much is obvious enough to see. What is more interesting is why it was like this? and what might the answer to this tell us about the connotations involved in its use at the time? These connotations might create a thread of connections which lead to further understanding of the text, at a deeper level for some if they are interested in them as I am. To underestimate the depth and subtlety of the text will only be to the detriment of one's potential benefit from it, if they are open to learning beyond the obvious words..

Thank you. Yes, it was in the second version of MWD, which had a few extra words like 命, likely, as you said, for more clarification. For a text as profound as the Dao De Jing, I think these things are important. Like with the Yi Jing, a single word can point someone in the right direction if they are reading it from their Dao mind. For this reason, I find it relevant to include all of the original descriptive words...

Ha, yes, this does make sense too. Henricks used "rarefied" as "rare" is a common meaning, and rarefied means basically "kept esoteric" as in something not spoken/heard.

Hmm, yes it does seem out of place, but was it? is the question... I think it says a bit that 名 "name (evening+mouth)" means reputation because "in the evening, when a man is not clearly seen he gives his name by word of mouth."(Rose Quong) So 德昏之而弗得, 命之曰夷 德De/Virtue kept hidden [by the light of 昏evening] results in not 得 (moving to complacence = acquire), destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not. or "Virtue kept hidden results in leaving the reward (the reward of virtue = reputation) behind, thus it (virtue/reputation) should (命 command) not be spoken."

I, and some others, would like to know what was actually written in the text, so that we know what subtleties we might have missed by reading translations. The point for me or you or someone else is rarely the same thing, so you'll have to answer that for yourself.

Oh and fogot to mention also about name/reputation pictured as mouth/moon as mentioned in OP. Then compare to "virtue obscured = De, dusk" This seems to enhance the meaning in this direction as well.

Dawei, Thanks for your help with this. Seems the question was justified enough at least to make you go and check it out further, so I guess I'm not completely gone. I noticed too, in the MWD versions, that 弗 (barbarian, war) is used sort of as a negation (word for word:) the MWD 1 and 2 here are basically the same until the last line. Once again though, "the name is called wishful" doesn't make much sense here, though I can see why Henricks uses the other meaning "rare/rareified" instead. And "De/Virtue 昏obscured/kept hidden results in not acquire (or become complacent), destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not" Sorry for the choppy sentences there, but it seems like " 得 obtain" might also mean to imply part of it's word meaning "complacent" much as "命 destiny" seems to imply the part of it's word meaning "command" as in "commands the expression as..." So the last line might best read "Virtue kept hidden results in non-complacence (aquisition [of surface reputation]), destined/commanded to be not spoken." Really, all of this, though at first after your replies I was a bit more "okay, I guess I missed this", it now only seems to be confirming for me everything I was saying... lol.. Even for Henricks, it looks to me like he had to reach a bit to come to: It looks like he had to omit "德昏 De/Virtue obscured" in order to make sense out his translation. To me, this is an error. Especially a concept as central to Lao Tzu's philosphy as 德昏. Now, after all that, lol, you mentioned how lines 9 - 11 were different in the MWD. This would be (MWD): 者亓上不謬, 亓下不忽尋. "it height is not erronneously 謬exaggerated, it lowness in not frantically sought." Henricks wrote: Come on! He just dropped the implication of "謬 exaggeration, speak-wind, erroneous" and "忽尋 frantically sought" in this sentence to avoid confusing discontinuity. In my opinin, none of these words need to be omitted if one translates these lines to show how they speak about reputation, which by the way, is a central concept in Chapters 13 and 15 (we're talking about Chapter 14, in case anyone forgot.....)! I hope this has been at least an enjoyable read. It has been an enjoyable effort!

Yes, this makes sense, as there are like 6 different ways to write "can \ cannot" as well. Though, the two ways of "it is called" are used in the same chapter here. Not that this is by any means the only reason I question, but just one more detail that helps me to think that maybe it is not merely saying "it is called" but more literally "reputation spoken." Really, my main reason for thinking it is "reputation spoken" is the rest of the chapter, and the chapter following. Here is the rest of Ch.14 according to Legge: note that I'm saying the chapter is more specific to a person, teaching the way of the Sage. I don't have my resources with me, but there were many other details that spoke towards "no reputation" or "leaving no trace" sort of "leaving the trace of no-trace." This could be deduced in general, but the first paragraph makes it more plain, imo, by "reputation spoken."

All good points, MH. "However, if all we get are misunderstandings then we might actually be more confused after reading it than we were before reading it." For me personally, I check other translations to see what I might be missing when getting something fairly different, but usually I find the potentially confusing specifics reveal the broader meanings as well as the broad revealed the specific too. When this is the case, I'm not too worried about what all the others said, since it seems they based off each other a lot of the time anyways. Plus, my interest in this personal rather than commercial, so if it makes sense to me and me only... cool..

I should add: another reason why I'm seeing it like this is that in chapter six when saying "it is called" this was said "是謂, indeed, called\it is called" and also at the end of chapter 10 "indeed 是謂 called mysterious De\virtue. Plus, at the end of chapter 14: 是謂道紀。 Indeed, called Dào's history. So this makes me ask, as well, how "名曰" might mean something other than the commonly appearing "it is called" also when Lao Tze uses 名 in Chapter One as the "name which is not the eternal name." So one might say that in chapter 14 the "names" are starting to appear, but still, I must beg to differ on perception of the text. Though I think for the most part, whatever one gets from the words can be of import and value to them.

Yes, there would be some footnotes needed for people comparing to other translations etc., but it makes perfect sense as the chapter continues, in my opinion. Seems to me that much of the Dao De Jing speaks of Dao and the Sage in the same descriptions. So the normal translation focuses on the Dao, though to me it seems like this is actually the more subtle teaching, at least in Chapter 14.

Hi people I would like to point out some things about Chapter 14. Considering the following chapter, 15, speaks about the unfathomability of the illusive sage, and Dao, I think it is important to note that the frequent appearance of 名曰= name, spoken Common translations appear as this: However, 名曰夷... 夷=barbarians, to tear down; to raze [, war] Why translate this as: "Its name is Formless"? 名曰希... 希= rare; hope, expect, strive for (something crossed on a fabric, perhaps as "I want this") Why translate this as: "Its name is Soundless"? 名曰微... 微= incredibly small/micro Why translate this as: "Its name is Incorporeal."? 名曰 = name, spoken I think the reason these words are translated as such is that translators don't know what to make of them in these sentences/contexts. so they just omit the meaning and relate them to "look, listen, and grasp" as appears in their sentences preceding. This pretty much throws off the entire chapter and [part of] it's connection to chapter 15, in my opinion. Those translations show the attributes of the Dao, but they do not show the way that this relates to the Way of the Sage. How does it show the Way of the sage? 名 is translated as "name" but it actually means "rank or status." Why? it is a mouth under the moon. Still confused, right? 名 is “spoken under moonlight”according to Rose Quong, “when in the dark, one can only go by reputation.” So 名曰 is "status/reputation spoken" Now consider (my translation): The rest of the chapter is a continuation of this same lesson, showing how the Sage "does not leave a trace." Okay, so that seems to make sense, but does it work with the context? Here are the first lines of Chapter 15 (Feng & English translation): "The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive. The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable. [深不可識 = depth, not, able, recognize] Because it is unfathomable, All we can do is describe their appearance." That's all I can say about it for now....

Maybe Bruce Frantzis will straighten them out. Here was his recent newsletter:

I recently started a thread on some experience with it, which didn't get very far, but here it is: http://thetaobums.co...g-at-super-ego/ I find it is very good to loosen up the grip on our healthy-emotions, and to allow them to flower in the everyday .

Consider too, that the I Ching was used by sages who counselled kings, rather than kings who counselled kings. Yes, should be found throughout many chapters, and as self-evident in one's personal experience(s).

Was recently working on re-translating chapters 6 and 10 of the Dao De Ching. I believe they also speak much to his idea. See post #38 here for more on this idea.

Try Heel brand hayfever nasal spray, found at natural food/supplements stores. It's homeopathic, and works like a charm to the point her allergies might disappear altogether. was recommended by mattwads at TTB who's allergies went away. I recommended it to someone who had almost the same effect though didn't take it for as long and they came back, but she only uses it once a week or so.

So true. This "flow" is also incredibly good for a person's health and longevity. I think it allows the body to operate at a more optimum level and trains the mind to listen to the body. This reduces stress from over-thinking and hesitation, creates fluidity of motion and response with more ease. All the more reason to teach kids "arts" in school. The downside being that most people live in a world built up around a different mindset. Perhaps our art now is to feel the flow of this and traverse from the Shen level. The Yi Jing serves as a sort of "instruction manual" for this art .