Harmonious Emptiness

Thanks Dawei! I've found the exercises in this to be good in helping to understand word-combinations too. Seems to use a lot of Confucian classics, so interesting too:

Interesting additions to considering the Taoist-Confucian feud. What I see as the main criticism of Confucianism in The Chuang-Tzu, however, is that he focuses so much on academic types of knowledge that he misses the important stuff, and his academic knowledge is not tempered by his Dao-mind. If you read "The Old Fisherman" chapter, Confucius meets a sage, possibly Lao Tzu, who explains the errors of scholars and then refuses to allow Confucius to follow him, saying that Confucius has not fully attained these fundamental virtues as yet. So, I wouldn't so much say Confucius' teachings are aimed at, but the obsession with book-knowledge that his way results in instead.

Just wanted to re-post this as it might have been missed when my addition to it started a new page.

All very welcome!

Sounds like it may be a spontaneous kundalini awakening, but I'm not anyone to diagnose that. I'd suggest messaging TTB users Hundun, and Seth Ananda, or Shakti Mama as they might not get to reading the lobby.

http://zenmontpellier.voila.net/eng/lotus/lotuseng.html I was given a pdf of the article this is based on (the photos are pictures here, and organized a little better) from a Zen center. Good stuff.

Was thinking this was the same old questions but I guess it's a bit different.. According to "Taoist Yoga," the energy has to pass through a number of energy centers along the micro-cosmic orbit to be transformed and purified before it reaches the dantien via the long route. It should turn into a calm, spiritual, energy. Otherwise you're just likely doing more harm than good by raising un-purified energy. For most men, all they have to do is wait about a week and they will have enough energy to know that it needs to be purified and transformed if they are going to hold on to it. Use it or lose it has never been more true.....

One more thing to add here: For Chapter Three, about competition, reducing desire competition. Some translate this as reducing ambitions, but the subject here is about competition. The difference between them as shown in the way of the wheel spokes working together unselfishly towards the collective effort, is that Ambition of the Wise is to work together with people to create something advantageous and useful. The Competition of the Ignorant is to work against each other. Lao Tzu’s counsel is to show how people can work together, in mutual benefit, rather than letting ignorance rule and compete against each other.

I've given more info relating to this here for those interested. Essentially, saying that if Lao Tze advised rulers to make people "ignorant" (as it is so often translated), why would he also advised rulers to: 05 滌除玄覽, dī chú xuán lǎn, Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections 06 能無疵乎?! néng wú cī hū?! Can you be without this disease? 07 愛民治國, ài mín zhì guō, Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation 08 能無知乎?! néng wú zhī hū?! Can you do this without academic knowledge? (chapter 10) Mind you, the mention of nations or rulers is rather rare in the DDJ, though leadership, as a community leader/role model, is often. Lao Tze, as a sage, wants to bring harmony to the people by teaching people proper wisdom, planting seeds for future sages to abound like lush greenery, continuing to sow the wisdom of Dao throughout. To do so it helps that he speaks to those who wield the most power and, by his virtue, he is not afraid to so.

Some more support on translating these differently: [all translations mine] Many say that the DDJ was written only for emperors and this is why there is advice to make people think less, that the emperor is the Sage, etc., and that this is why something appears like "treat all people like straw dogs." However, how does this make sense when Lao Tze suggests that the ruler should also live beyond petty concerns and mere academic knowledge? The sage wants the same thing for the people that he wants for the emperor: Wisdom and Virtue. Chapter Three, line 2 says: "so that (common) people don't cause disharmony by vying with one in competition, don't show off or make a big deal about being honoured and better than one another." This sort of Wu Wei of Governance, whether of a nation or a community, is to bring wisdom to the people, increasing wisdom by not focusing on petty matters and petty knowledge. As this is the function of the Sage, and those whom the sage influences to become "wise people"/"sages" themselves. Note that this idea of people being concerned with academic/petty knowledge is first mentioned in Chapter One, saying that people attempt to use petty knowledge to understand Dao, only ending up competing over terms and loosing the Way to Dao! Chapter Three then says more about this foolish competitiveness! Chapter Two also talked about competition and the unity of opposites. Then you have chapter Four about the balancing effect of The Dao, and then Chapter Five starts off with the lines in question: "Heaven and Earth do not distinguish between the myriad creatures in matters of benevolence and punishment The Sage does not distinguish between one clan and another in matters of benevolence and punishment" Or Heaven is not kind, treats all creatures like straw dogs The Sage is not kind, treats all creatures like straw dogs Consider this from Chapter 10 as well: 05 滌除玄覽, dī chú xuán lǎn, Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections 06 能無疵乎?! néng wú cī hū?! Can you be without this disease? 07 愛民治國, ài mín zhì guō, Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation 08 能無知乎?! néng wú zhī hū?! Can you do this without academic knowledge? [random note: Maybe ài mín zhì guō should become the mantra of "the people." (has a nice sound to it when said with right pitch! high to low, low to high, short high to low, high).]

Love the shoulder block/overhand ear-scratch! Nice jab set-ups too. He\or she must have been watching for a while! lol It all changes in the alley though. Looks like a decent workout all the same...

Just to start, here is something from the treatment 4.2 (mountain over water, line 2) of the 1st wing of the 10 Wings of the Book of Changes (which by the way are highly debated as to how much actually existed before Confucius who is believed to have been a contemporary of Lao Tzu). "(The method to deal with) the young and ignorant is to nourish the correct (nature belonging to them). This accomplishes the service of the sage." (trans. by Legge, parentheses are his) The sage is not the ruler as the sage by nature does not seek such positions, though at the same time he does not shun responsibility and so leads when he cannot deny the position, or when the right people seek his guidance. Most of the advice in the early chapters talks about what the "Sage" or "Wise People" does/do to have proper influence on his community or sphere of influence. Due to the fact that influence becomes the interest of politicians, he speaks to them as well, as it is Lao Tzu's function as a Sage to nourish the wisdom of others, for the benefit of those people and society as a whole. By nourishing the wisdom of others, they may also become sages, and so he also gives guidance on how to handle this position of leadership, as well as the for those with "official power." I don't have all my resources with me right now to show how this appears in the early chapters, but you will probably find them easily with the right translation. ed. note: minor changes for readability.

1. This is not a direct translation of the word in this case, but an interpretation to fit the context. I explain why in post 21. 2. Again, I'm not using word for translation here. I think you may have said it best with: A better way for me to put it might be "Heaven and Earth do not distinguish between the myriad creatures in matters of benevolence and punishment The Sage does not distinguish between one clan and another in matters of benevolence and punishment" Mind you, this means the same thing as I had it at first, though before might have been confusing for some as it looked more like it was supposed to be word for word, rather than an interpretation based on all the context mentioned throughout the topic.

See Chapter Seven as one example: (Legge translation) 7 Heaven is long-enduring and earth continues long. The reason why heaven and earth are able to endure and continue thus long is because they do not live of, or for, themselves. This is how they are able to continue and endure. Therefore the sage puts his own person last, and yet it is found in the foremost place; he treats his person as if it were foreign to him, and yet that person is preserved. Is it not because he has no personal and private ends, that therefore such ends are realised?

This was well put, though the first word seems to be out of place from the rest of it. As for "keep people ignorant so they don't dissent," this is the way some will read it, sometimes merely to suit their purposes. Ancient Taoist writing, like the 5 elements, applies to many different aspects of life, both creative and destructive as the situation requires. Should I even make the effort to explain other beneficial understandings that can be learned from this? As far as I can see, the cup is well full and not much interested in more than superficial understandings, so I'm not sure it's worth making a mess.

Thanks for your support Dawei . As you obviously take a deep interest in these things, it is much appreciated. I understand what you mean, as I also want to try to and create a translation for myself that keeps the original words and images (which are often left out via interpretation), but doing so often leads to incorrect meaning, even though the word for word could carry something relatively sensible. To me, things like "one resides in"(translation) rather than "one is"(interpretation) makes a significant difference of tone, and can help to show the flow of expression that gives away subtler meanings which appear/appeal to a Taoist sensibility of heart wisdom(if I may). At the same time though, I have to disagree a bit as I think simply writing something like "this separation of clans\clan affiliations" would have done a lot of good towards not virtually reversing the meaning there. I can understand how people would have easily overlooked it, but if they see it, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have balanced the translation with some necessary interpretation to keep the meaning.

Well, I can't be bothered to take the time necessary to point it all out to you, so think what you want to think..

Lao Tzu spoke about the actions of "wise people" especially in the early chapters. This was intended for guidance to anyone who had the good fortune to read it. He is not talking about "the superior man" in these chapters but "wise people." Wise people are natural leaders, so he talks about how people who follow his advice can fulfill this inevitable role effectively, not just to people who are in positions of power by arbitrary political means.

Thanks for your response and helpful history lesson Dawei! I'm a bit unclear though on the last part here though: So, you mean you are not averse to people translating the line as it is normally translated, but agree that it actually means as I put in the title?? I can see why people would translate it as normally done, so I don't really fault them for the error. It's sort of like if I said "Design your house with Oriental flavour." At one time that would have meant Persian. Now it means "Asian." Also, yes, when I say "names" I mean "family names/clan names." I think this also extends to titles of superiority in a way too, as the family names were, largely, signifiers of this.

1. Nowhere did I say 仁 = man. 2. "萬人 does not say "all people" but it means "ten thousand people"" Whatever, it mean 1000 thousand people. 人 means people. Actually, the Classical Chinese character for all people/humanity is 人類 "human kind(category)." So, once again... why wouldn't he use that? Also, Lao Tzu I think knew full well that his writing was important, and probably saw it outlasting this way of referring to humanity, also knowing that all of humanity is not merely these 100 families, no?

The whole book was subtle in so many profound ways, that is part of the reason it is so well revered. Also, to say this any more explicitly probably would have bordered on a declaration of war aginst the existing hierarchies.

Another way to help see this, is to look at it as though the Sage and Heaven are both like an child/infant. They do not see "the hundred families" as this that and the other, they are just people. So the phrase is to say "This idea, separation into "one hundred," is of no significance (to the Sage). Under heaven we are one family." When I put this as "The sage treats titles and names as straw dogs." this is just the easist way to say this using words within the text while conveying the correct meaning. As Chuang Tzu says "though expected to bear gifts when meeting someone of great authority, the best gift you can bring them is Dao" ie., just being a real person, and not paying obsequious obeisance as customarily done by officials and peasants. "Heaven is not "socially appropriate", and so treats all creatures the same (as straw dogs). The Sage is not dictated by social conventions, and so treats the separation of people in to "100 families" as a ashes." 仁 means kindness, but signifies how man relates to other people. To relate them according to "social conventions" would be considered virtuous and friendly by most, or fake by others. Generally, it is considered kind and perhaps self-sacrificing as the way to ensure social harmony. So Heaven and Earth do not consider socially appropriate behavior, "Heaven, Earth, not, 仁" "Wise, man, not, 仁" Chuang Tzu, who quite obviously gained much inspiration from the Dao De Jing or at least it's existing philosphies, talked a whole lot about "being real" instead of just following conventions as expected by Confucianists. For me, the Chapter "The Old Fisherman" is one of the best chapters on this way. I think these are linked like a stone bridge!.... EDIT: Actually, "Wise, man, not, 仁" should just be "Wise, person, not, 仁" since 人 means person, and there are other characters for Man and Woman. 萬人 would be one way to say "all people."

So if I play on the team, I'm a Miami Dolphin, but if I play football all day and don't have a team, I'm a fan. Whatever, as long as I have something to paint my van with! ta ha haaa..

Quench my soul indeed One sip, tasted from tongue's tip The spring tree is me

Okay, while once again, as you said, the actual overall meaning is not isolated to this character meaning "people" but rather the status' between them. Thus, once again, it doesn't make sense (at least in English) of the meaning to merely say "the people are treated as straw dogs."