Harmonious Emptiness

Well, yes, because the direct/common/first glance translation is grossly misleading.. and fails to account for so many other things in the text, and culturual history. It really wasn't even that difficult to see that he wasn't talking about people but "names." It really bewilders me to see how common the error is given how contrary it is to the "train of thought" that is running through these chapters. Anyways, I hope I haven't damaged anyone's reputation, including my own, in bringing this to light. Thanks for your help Dawei and Chi Dragon. Chi, even though you can be difficult (I think partially owing to our language difference), you are a good fire for me make sure the steel stood up to a blazing test

Okay, so you said: The two phrases are linked together by saying that: A ruler(sage) is impartial because he treats everybody equally and shows no nepotism. Before the law, everybody treated equally because the law is impartial and has no mercy. While I said (in order of appearance) : "The sage doesn't judge by family lineages" 04 以百姓為芻狗。 yǐ bái xìng wéi chú gǒu。 Thus, all the clan affiliations and names are treated like straw dogs "Could it not be concerning the time of Lao Tzu when it would have been considered very rude not to show appropriate respect based on the power of particular clans and families? So, "the sage does not worry about social interaction, and treats family names as straw dogs / ignores the expected courtesies to powerful clans and families." "the sage is not concerned with a person's titles, much as Heaven is not concerned with status of humans being "above" the rest of living things

Is this not what you said? Did you not say what you meant or meant what you said?

@ Dawei Thanks for your contribution as well. I think that adds more weight to the meaning that the line was really saying "the sage is not concerned with a persons titles, much as Heaven is not concerned with status of humans being "above" the rest of living things."

So in the end, you're saying the same thing as I did, though somehow possibly taking a different route to the same meaning. I guess the moral of the story (as a translator) is that the context helps to read the words, as the same meaning you have here managed to come out of the same four characters for me. It sounded like you were going to give me some reasons as to why I was wrong, but you actually agree with the overall meaning nonetheless. The problem, and why I made this topic, is that very few have ever translated this beyond the "logical English" meaning, and this has resulted in some incredibly inconsistent ideas based on this one line. So, thanks for your [eventual] support for this point Chi!.

So I double checked why I translated the line before this one as "favour" rather than "kindness." When it reads "The Sage is not kind" then of course it looks more like he is talking about the clans rather than just the names. However, I see that I am not the only one to look at 仁 as more than just kindness, as it shows one man relating to other people, referring to "the relationship between man and his fellow men." (btw, I admit I probably got a bit carried away in dropping the OP like that) So, I see why most translate 仁 the way they do, but still then why could it not mean something more in line to the chapters leading up to Ch. Five? Could it not be concerning the time of Lao Tzu when it would have been considered very rude not to show appropriate respect based on the power of particular clans and families? So, "the sage does not worry about social interaction, and treats family names as straw dogs / ignores the expected courtesies to powerful clans and families." This seems to be more in line to the meaning of the teaching.

Hey man go for it! I'm sure you have your reasons for reading it the way you do and I would surely like to hear them!

I think charity is not that hard, except for the stipulation that it is only charity if one does it out of compassion rather than expectation of return. If I ever eat at a restaurant and have a decent amount of left overs, I get them to go and find someone to give it to. This is very rewarding. I feel like it actually deepens my connection with humanity to see joy in the eyes of someone who was just desperately searching through a trash can. If you have left over clothes to give, take them with you and find someone who looks like they need them. I like to look for someone who seems to have relatively good karma though. If the person looks like they want to rob somebody, then I won't help them. I think there are higher beings who work in the same way, and so I try to reward the humble as I think their humility is what earns them favour from the other realms, and thus is most likely to help them stay on that path.

read up on Borage tea and adrenals. Not for long term use btw as it may be hard on the liver. Be careful about taking too much seaweed product as the iodine could lead to hyper-thyroid which is very very difficult to treat effectively. I'm not a health professional, fyi...

So finally got around to this. A whopping $2 a month. You sure I can't claim that on my taxes? (just kidding..)

Has anyone else, during Secret Smile meditation (relaxed, confident, joy/laughing, love, bliss), started with relaxed, then confident, then, to bring up laughing-joy feeling: looking at the Dependent Origination Absolute of that relaxed and confident self, and laughed inside at how funny it is in Reality??? And then thinking of strong love feeling as the love that you feel for that self (that pwuoa widdlle swewlff) and all the other little Emptinesesesez [of Form] ?

Yes. Well said, WWROA @ Scotty.. I'll have to see the end of that movie again to remember that side of it.

Yeah, it's really something for people who are already well acquainted with the teachings of Shunyata. Ego is a strange term to use in a way, but a lot of the Chinese teachings on it seem to make even more sense when one sees that Ego is a translation of the word self, pictured as a man with a spear. i think we can all learn to put down the spear and not take our "selves" so seriously. This is not just Buddhist teaching mind you. The Dao De Jing talks a lot about this as well, as put one's self behind in the collective pursuit. Maybe a side note, but this, in my opinion, can also be learned to a degree in percussion ensembles. It can become quite obvious how the self wants and tries to get in the way, but everything is harmonious when it chills... showing the paradox and futility that can be this meddling self. To get to higher levels, I think one needs to be able to see beyond Self AND No Self so they can see All.. but I'm getting tangential...

I would be sure to do some Rinzai walking meditation between sitting, both to keep the legs and feet healthy, and to practice mindfulness while walking as it sounds like you will have lots of good quiet spaces to do this. If you haven't done this type of walking let me know and I'll give a basic description.

I don't live there, but... Be sure to check out the Chinese Garden http://vancouverchinesegarden.com/ Also http://www.thechineseteashop.com/ . The owner is quite knowledgeable, and if you show some interest in all of it he might offer for you to try some teas and tell you a bit more about gong fu cha. No need to pay for that, but you might want to buy something small anyway. The Jimi Hendrix museum was pretty cool too. He lived in Vancouver for a while when he was younger, with his grandmother. The chicken shack she owned is now like a small shrine, and the hotel next door is now a rooming house for students. Was kind of cool to see. Just some people keeping the history alive, with a can for donations. Her house down the street is an official historic site . Also check out Gastown, Stanley Park, and Beach Avenue/the beach. The downtown area is fairly small so you can walk from one end to another in about 45 minutes. Watch out for Hasting street on the way to China town. A lot of drug crime goes on there, but it's just one street and it's pretty open. Compared to a lot of places in the US, it's nothing really.. Just avoid drawing attention to yourself when you walk through it. It does get a bit chilly at night (maybe 12-17C), even in the summer, but the winters rarely get below about 8C.

oooh, dare we get into a debate about the spiritual potential of Tai Chi Quan? I'll tally my opinion up, that even silk reeling can feel a bit too counter-humanitarian so I generally do it before chi gong and meditation if doing them all in the same space of time, this way I leave in a more "open" spirit. I think if it's done this way, then it can certainly be used as a vehicle for mindfulness practice, but still wouldn't expect this alone to reveal the mysteries. I'm sure many a Buddhist monk would take issue with practicing martial arts, but maybe focus fighting against ignorance or delusion somehow instead? I don't even really picture an opponent, but it still feels pretty unwelcoming and combative. This is necessary though sometimes for us world-dwellers... I'm not a long-term practitioner, but I think this ought to be considered for a somewhat balanced discussion.

From a simple search, I've found that he is considered a protector of dharma temples for Buddhists, and a subduer of demons in Taoism. Seems to be a historical figure basically used as an archetype for these roles. If there's a fight going on, you might not want it going on right above your head when your sleeping, unless maybe there seems to be one already. I think I've seen shrines to him at entrances.

Well, mind you, I learned how to fight long before learning and practicing any Chen silk reeling, so perhaps it won't make someone a fighter, though I think they would experience the same thing I have, which is that I can more easily, quickly, and effectively put my legs and hips into a push or pull.

Hi Ya Mu Thanks again for your response. I do have the book and list. I feel like right now, without being properly introduced to the lineage of Stillness Movement, it might be better for me to stick with the way I have been doing it (sitting meditation) as my internal system seems to respond better to the left over right circle mudra. Strangely, it seemed backwards to my inclination when I started it but seems to have become the most activating. The other things about allowing movement when you feel to do so were never resisted by me, as this seemed more sensible from the philosphies of early Quanzhen writers/teachers. I do incorporate the intro movements that you suggested in the book though, and have some different closing methods that I do as well. I am, however, continuing with Gift of Tao of course. As suggested, it seems to me that the sitting aspect is really more difficult to pick up adequately from a distance, so I'd be better to "stick with what I know" in the time being..

I still disagree here. In western boxing you spend quite a bit of time perfecting the skill of putting your body into a punch. Silk reeling is, among other things, a repeated micro-analysis of this. In western boxing, you turn your hip, heel, and shoulder before throwing a punch. Silk reeling is basically repeating this motion but more like a push than a punch. This can be very useful for fighting, even from a fairly beginner level, imo. It's the difference of pushing or striking someone from your shoulders and chest, versus incorporating heels, hips, thighs, calves, etc, etc,. Of course it helps if they learn some fa jin silk reeling early on, so a teacher of Chen Tai Chi might get to this quicker than say Yang or Wu, since there are fa jin movements throughout the Chen form.

道常無為， 而無不為 It is the way of Dao to not lead/interfere/do/make/govern/manipulate/ ["do, handle, govern, act; be"] Nevertheless, nothing is left undone

Silk reeling teaches a person quite a bit about body movement, just on its own, and putting the entire waist and legs into one coordinated movement, so if a person works on this I think they can get quite a bit out of it, quickly even, if they learn properly. Somebody would have to remind me of his name (was it Chang Sang Feng?), one of the earliest lineage starters was said to have first learned Tai Chi by watching someone practice through a fence... So I think at least something can be learned from this if one is willing to invest enough time in understanding the principles of Taoism and Chi Gong.

道常無為， 而無不為 literally: Dao always not leading (among other possible actions) Nevertheless, nothing not done ("left undone")

Yeah, it's not likely just testosterone that goes up, and what of the other stuff can be measured by these people? I don't think Shen and the western notion of Spirit are entirely the same, so I don't think Shen could be cultivated by Virtue alone. Taoist Alchemists talked about jing transformation to chi and shen. I'm not sure virtue alone will do this. There were those who considered sexual (yet celibate) practices to be "side path distractions" but they also talked about transmutation of jing to chi to shen, so they have a different path. Taoism is mainly a religion for people who renounce (renounce, not denounce) worldly life to achieve another achievement. If that's not your path, then you have another path.. Whatever... not everybody is expected to do this.. Everybody has different things to do to maintain harmony in society to allow society to progress. When they do what is for them, and everybody does what is for them, then that is good too.. How you live in the world is a path unto itself.

Thanks for your timely reply Michael. Normally this seems like something for a more closed conversation, but perhaps it will be of help to someone someday... So, from other qi gong experience I've become accustomed to holding the dantien from up to several inches away from my body.. not sure if this is what you mean by "field instead of just a location." Also, much of the spontaneous movement that I feel to follow involves a feeling of purifying\releasing stagnant energy followed by bringing energy into the dantien "field." It may be of some relevance, as well, that my spontaneous mind\feeling\body connection is fairly tuned up from playing improvisational percussion and guitar for over 2\3rds of my lifetime. On a somewhat related\unrelated note, I was wondering regarding Gift of Tao, if the focus of most of the moves (including 4th and 5th moves, side and front) can or should be towards gathering to dantien?